Horus vs Abaddon: Post Vengeful Spirit / Talon of Horus

[Loesh]

Horus almost killed the Emperor.

 

Eldrad almost killed Abaddon.

 

I'll let others do the math on that one.

 

As for Abaddon's hatred of Horus, I find that to be rather amusing considering he's accomplished so much less over ten thousand years, than Horus did in seven years. His accusations of Horus being a fool and a failure ring a bit hollow there. Then again, Abaddon appearantly isn't allowed to truly and meaningfully win by the Chaos Gods who like to yank his chain.

 

...Horus accomplished more by not at all uniting the Chaos Legions and getting essentially sacrificed to the Emperor? I mean don't get me wrong, the Horus Heresy was a major moment in the lives of Chaos, but it is JUST a moment, it's not the end all of warfare, many of the Chaos Legions probably don't even regard it as anything more then a distant memory anymore. It's what got the ball rolling, but it wasn't the mechanism that got it where it needed to go.

 

Which isn't to say I think Abaddon transformed the Chaos Space Marines into what they are now, because he didn't, what did that was centuries living inside some bizarre blend of heaven, hell, and purgatory. Yet Abaddon seems to be more successful with clearer goals and a better grasp of Chaos(As much as you can grasp Chaos.) then Horus ever did.

[Gree]

 

Horus almost killed the Emperor.

 

Eldrad almost killed Abaddon.

 

I'll let others do the math on that one.

 

As for Abaddon's hatred of Horus, I find that to be rather amusing considering he's accomplished so much less over ten thousand years, than Horus did in seven years. His accusations of Horus being a fool and a failure ring a bit hollow there. Then again, Abaddon appearantly isn't allowed to truly and meaningfully win by the Chaos Gods who like to yank his chain.

 

...Horus accomplished more by not at all uniting the Chaos Legions and getting essentially sacrificed to the Emperor? I mean don't get me wrong, the Horus Heresy was a major moment in the lives of Chaos, but it is JUST a moment, it's not the end all of warfare, many of the Chaos Legions probably don't even regard it as anything more then a distant memory anymore. It's what got the ball rolling, but it wasn't the mechanism that got it where it needed to go.

 

Which isn't to say I think Abaddon transformed the Chaos Space Marines into what they are now, because he didn't, what did that was centuries living inside some bizarre blend of heaven, hell, and purgatory. Yet Abaddon seems to be more successful with clearer goals and a better grasp of Chaos(As much as you can grasp Chaos.) then Horus ever did.

 

Nah, Wade Garrett convinced me a while ago that Abaddon can't be successful. The Chaos Gods will always yank his chain because they don't want him to ever permanently win. He can't ever really succeed. In the end he's not a serious threat to the Imperium because the Dark Gods won't let him.

 

I mean, I thought Abaddon was a competent, threatening warlord, but now I realize he's the Charlie Brown of evil. That's not somebody I can ever have much regard or respect for.

 

Maybe Horus was also a a pawn of the Dark Gods, but at least he accomplished more than Abaddon ever did in ten millenia of repeated Black Crusades. That garners him more much respect and regard from me than Abaddon.

[Loesh]

 

Nah, Wade Garrett convinced me a while ago that Abaddon can't be successful. The Chaos Gods will always yank his chain because they don't want him to ever permanently win. He can't ever really succeed. In the end he's not a serious threat to the Imperium because the Dark Gods won't let him.

 

I mean, I thought Abaddon was a competent, threatening warlord, but now I realize he's the Charlie Brown of evil. That's not somebody I can ever have much regard or respect for.

 

Maybe Horus was also a a pawn of the Dark Gods, but at least he accomplished more than Abaddon ever did in ten millenia of repeated Black Crusades. That garners him more much respect and regard from me than Abaddon.

 

 

....?

 

Things are paused at the thirteenth Black Crusade for a reason, namely that this is really the end for the Imperium. Even if Chaos was beaten back, and that's a big if, there's way, way, way too many threats for them to ever recover. A whole quarter of the Imperium has gone completely black, and repeated sieges on it's edges have started to take their toll.

 

To be quite frank the most likely outcome is that Abaddon wins and either A. Get's nommed by Tyranids, or B. Everything get's consumed in a Chaos Storm, and then who the hell knows.

[Gree]

 

Nah, Wade Garrett convinced me a while ago that Abaddon can't be successful. The Chaos Gods will always yank his chain because they don't want him to ever permanently win. He can't ever really succeed. In the end he's not a serious threat to the Imperium because the Dark Gods won't let him.

 

I mean, I thought Abaddon was a competent, threatening warlord, but now I realize he's the Charlie Brown of evil. That's not somebody I can ever have much regard or respect for.

 

Maybe Horus was also a a pawn of the Dark Gods, but at least he accomplished more than Abaddon ever did in ten millenia of repeated Black Crusades. That garners him more much respect and regard from me than Abaddon.

 

....?

 

Things are paused at the thirteenth Black Crusade for a reason, namely that this is really the end for the Imperium. Even if Chaos was beaten back, and that's a big if, there's way, way, way too many threats for them to ever recover. A whole quarter of the Imperium has gone completely black, and repeated sieges on it's edges have started to take their toll.

 

To be quite frank the most likely outcome is that Abaddon wins and either A. Get's nommed by Tyranids, or B. Everything get's consumed in a Chaos Storm, and then who the hell knows.

 

Actually I've also been convinced that the 13th was also another failure on the part of Chaos, regardless of what GW tries to write in their campaign results. So I don't really regard that crusade as something positive for Abaddon.

[Loesh]

*Shrugs* The Imperium seems pretty boned, and to me all evidence points to the exact opposite.

 

But sure I guess.

[Gree]

*Shrugs* The Imperium seems pretty boned, and to me all evidence points to the exact opposite.

 

But sure I guess.

If you wish, I can PM you the discussions I found so convincing.

 

But of course, everything I've said in this thread is my personal opinion and interpretation. I'm not trying to trample on any Black Legion players or Abaddon fans or anything. I'm fine with people holding a different interpretation.

[Loesh]

 

*Shrugs* The Imperium seems pretty boned, and to me all evidence points to the exact opposite.

 

But sure I guess.

If you wish, I can PM you the discussions I found so convincing.

 

But of course, everything I've said in this thread is my personal opinion and interpretation. I'm not trying to trample on any Black Legion players or Abaddon fans or anything. I'm fine with people holding a different interpretation.

 

 

Pffff you don't need to be sorry about stating an opinion. I'm hardly an Abaddon fan myself, i'm just...neutral...towards his influence on the setting.

 

Truth be told, I find Teke the Smiling One, a minor supporting character from Eisenhorn about 100 times more badass then Abaddon. But then again, i'm weird.

[Volt]

There's also the point that Luther survived the fight.

Plus the planet was breaking apart around them during the fight as well.

[Kol Saresk]

Then we're going that Luther, an augmented human who wasn't even an Astartes, was better able to shift to an adapting battleground than the Lion, a primarch was.

[Lord Marshal Ragnrok]

i think we are not considering the psychological element that effected the Lion and not Luther

[Kol Saresk]

If a psychological element is enough to bring a primarch down to the level of an augmented human, then why is it so hard to believe that a Horus who is hating himself for every little thing can be beaten by an Astartes warlord invested with the powers of the gods?

[Vesper]

Primarchs are big things, that's for sure. But they clearly aren't the end all be all of the Galaxy. Remember when Horus Lupercal was downed by a nurglite cultist with a knife ? Or that time when Roboute Guilliman was the plaything of a single psyker ? There's also that Alpha Legion killteam who got that close of killing one of those greater beings. And don't get me started on the Daemon Primarchs.

 

And when it comes to the Emperor... Just send a bunch of Orks.

[Kol Saresk]

Oh yeah, I forgot about Mortarion and Draigo.

[Wade Garrett]

A guy possessed by a Great Unclean One wielding a sorcerous banesword is now "a simple Nurgle cultist with a knife".

 

Well. If that's the tune called, let's dance.

 

Nykona Sharrowkyn would kill M41 Abaddon effortlessly. It would be so easy, it wouldn't even rate a momentary feeling of satisfaction from the Great One.

[Kol Saresk]

Except he wasn't possessed. He was Eugan Temba the entire time.

[Vesper]

Nykona Sharrowkyn would kill M41 Abaddon effortlessly. It would be so easy, it wouldn't even rate a momentary feeling of satisfaction from the Great One.

I mean, anybody who isn't aware of the simple fact that Nykona Sharrowkyn>Abaddon can't call himself a 40k fan. There are important in-universe facts that you have to acknowledge, and this one could very well be crucially fundamental.

 

 

Oh yeah, I forgot about Mortarion and Draigo.

Typical human mind safety protocols. Forget what you can't change.

 

Truth be told, I find Teke the Smiling One, a minor supporting character from Eisenhorn about 100 times more badass then Abaddon. But then again, i'm weird.

That guy ? Yeah. He's amazing.

 

EDIT: speaking of Nykona Sharrowkin made me wish he is still alive by M41. Because of some super secret Raven Guard special thing he's the only one to trully master. That would make him such a superb character.

[Prot]

.

 

And when it comes to the Emperor... Just send a bunch of Orks.

That made me laugh... but I have a friend that would agree with you. ;)

 

I just think the 'capacity' for a primarch to absorb, and utilize the empowerment of Chaos stuff is way beyond an Astartes. It might just be that kind of similar gap that is between a primarch and the big E.

 

Why did Luthur survive? I dunno, we'll see that re-written again I'm sure. Why did the Emperor trade so many blows with Horus? Was he holding back? I think past writing tell us that he was.

 

From my point of view, the greatest weakness of these guys would lend to kind of a weird chink in their armour. Like using cultists or Luther as an example... I mean there's always going to be that exception. Guilliman was almost killed by a few beat up Alpha Legion, but I would say the circumstances were extraordinary, and a high degree of trickery would be involved in these scenarios.

 

The 'simple' knife that fell Horus was actually quite a complex and contrived example of such trickery. Not a mano a mano like I'd like to imagine, but as they say, all is fair in love and war and I think that is the situation where you see these weird 'one off' kind of exceptions. IE: Guilliman was hasty to greet his great warriors back from a brutal war... skipping protocol, ignoring all safety precautions, only to be duped by Alpha. Would he let that happen again? Probably not, but this is the only real chink in their armour. Their emotions, their brotherhood, their (misplaced?) trust. 

[Wade Garrett]

Except he wasn't possessed. He was Eugan Temba the entire time.

I'm pretty sure somebody would have noticed if Temba was a bloated giant with horns when he was originally made planetary govenor of Davin. And that way he went from "Arrrrgh stab Horus!" To being all weepy and repentant after Lupercal put him down (just like Horus does at Terra in the old lore! It's like foreshadowing or something!) suggests there was more upstairs than just Temba.

 

@Vesper

What do you mean "wish"?

;)

[Loesh]

 

Nykona Sharrowkyn would kill M41 Abaddon effortlessly. It would be so easy, it wouldn't even rate a momentary feeling of satisfaction from the Great One.

I mean, anybody who isn't aware of the simple fact that Nykona Sharrowkyn>Abaddon can't call himself a 40k fan. There are important in-universe facts that you have to acknowledge, and this one could very well be crucially fundamental.

 

 

Oh yeah, I forgot about Mortarion and Draigo.

Typical human mind safety protocols. Forget what you can't change.

 

Truth be told, I find Teke the Smiling One, a minor supporting character from Eisenhorn about 100 times more badass then Abaddon. But then again, i'm weird.

That guy ? Yeah. He's amazing.

 

EDIT: speaking of Nykona Sharrowkin made me wish he is still alive by M41. Because of some super secret Raven Guard special thing he's the only one to trully master. That would make him such a superb character.

 

 

>Gets stabbed clean through the stomach.

>Doesn't even stop smiling.

[Kol Saresk]

 

Except he wasn't possessed. He was Eugan Temba the entire time.

I'm pretty sure somebody would have noticed if Temba was a bloated giant with horns when he was originally made planetary govenor of Davin. And that way he went from "Arrrrgh stab Horus!" To being all weepy and repentant after Lupercal put him down (just like Horus does at Terra in the old lore! It's like foreshadowing or something!) suggests there was more upstairs than Temba.

Because we have never ever seen anyone's body and psyche become twisted by the warp. *cough*Argel Tal*cough* :D

[Wade Garrett]

 

 

Except he wasn't possessed. He was Eugan Temba the entire time.

I'm pretty sure somebody would have noticed if Temba was a bloated giant with horns when he was originally made planetary govenor of Davin. And that way he went from "Arrrrgh stab Horus!" To being all weepy and repentant after Lupercal put him down (just like Horus does at Terra in the old lore! It's like foreshadowing or something!) suggests there was more upstairs than Temba.

Because we have never ever seen anyone's body and psyche become twisted by the warp. *cough*Argel Tal*cough* :D

Are you sure that's the example you want to use?

[Kol Saresk]

You're right. I should use that Blood Gorgon Chapter Master who is made up of as much metal as a Rhino.

 

Or that Arbites from the Word Bearers series who beats a commissars skull in.

 

Or Uzas.

 

Or Cyrion.

 

Or Mortarion.

 

Or Lorgar.

 

Or Horus.

[Gree]

A guy possessed by a Great Unclean One wielding a sorcerous banesword is now "a simple Nurgle cultist with a knife".

While Temba was almost certainly possessed by the powers of Chaos, was it ever explicitly stated that it was a Great Unclean One or just some generic, unspecified daemonic possession?

 

Nykona Sharrowkyn would kill M41 Abaddon effortlessly. It would be so easy, it wouldn't even rate a momentary feeling of satisfaction from the Great One.

Totally true. Sharrowkyn is a pretty cool guy. Headshots Primarchs and doesn't afraid anything. Abaddon would be a cakewalk.

[Kol Saresk]

It hasn't even been stated to be a possession. As Wade said above, it is only speculation that Temba is possessed at all due to his warped mind.

[Loesh]

Again this is another one of these really, really, nasty topics because it implies one character is somehow better then the other. Something that I find comes with a lot of nasty baggage.

 

I love Fulgrim, and I love that he downed two Primarchs...it's a cool badge to wear on your chest...but at the same time I tend to regard all Primarchs as roughly 'equal' and the reasons for those kinds of things happening as a product of circumstance. So I suppose that's really what my ultimate judgement would be here, what are the circumstances for this happening? Not that it matters much to me mind you, I wouldn't care if Goliath beat David if it happened to be raining.