Horus vs Abaddon: Post Vengeful Spirit / Talon of Horus

[Tenebris]

Hmm are we not derailing a bit with this "who has it bigger..." theme... Fact is Horus is dead, one of the Horus clones is dead too, Abaddon is alive and he is unleashing the very hell upon Cadia at this moment in the official timeline... and he is the Warmaster of Chaos.

 

The actual question, the question of this topic is the relationship between Abaddon and Horus, the relationship between genefather and geneson. It is a complex thing, especially if we consider the glory these two achieved during the Great Crusade and the death they unleashed during the Heresy. We speak of the two topmost dogs in the astartes hierarchy, the first the "greatest primarch" the other the "First Captain" both leading what was publicly perceived as the greatest astartes legion of them all... (mind, that is how the Imperium was looking at it... and the other legions too).

 

It must have been mind shattering carrying the corpse of one so esteemed a primarch away from Terra, it must have been tragic to see the greatest of the legions fall so law, to the worship of a corpse, shackled to their ancient glories all the while they were hunted by the other eight legions...

 

Yet in Abaddon I see a son who was able to shake off this ancient glory, the past of his legion, a soul who was able to look into the future and see a glimmer of hope. With Abaddon, in his story we see how he was able to return his brothers, the remnants of the Sons of Horus to glory, to an eminent position in the hierarchy of the damned, but to achieve that he had to unshackle them from the corpse of their father. 

 

The concept of the Monument is a tragic thing indeed, and I hope somewhere in the series we will read of the moment when Abaddon realized that his father, or in particular the worship of their father was getting him and his brothers killed in scores by the other Eight... This moment is perhaps the most crucial in the character's story for here Abaddon would be reforged, returned, restored and with him the Sons of Horus and trough them the creation of the Black Legion.

[Kol Saresk]

Actually the most recently published official timeline has Chaos as breaking through the Cadian Gates and the Imperium doing all it can just to stem the tide. :whistling:

[Gree]

Again this is another one of these really, really, nasty topics because it implies one character is somehow better then the other. Something that I find comes with a lot of nasty baggage.

 

I love Fulgrim, and I love that he downed two Primarchs...it's a cool badge to wear on your chest...but at the same time I tend to regard all Primarchs as roughly 'equal' and the reasons for those kinds of things happening as a product of circumstance. So I suppose that's really what my ultimate judgement would be here, what are the circumstances for this happening? Not that it matters much to me mind you, I wouldn't care if Goliath beat David if it happened to be raining.

But at the same time some characters are better than others. A heavily armed Terminator is probably going to beat a unarmed Conscript. A grot is probably not going to be a better general or fighter than a Primarch.

 

In essence, with Abaddon and Horus we have Abaddon both accomplishing much less than Horus over a greater period of time, and suffering some embarrassing personal defeats along the way (Abaddon vs Eldrad anyone?). He essentially does come off as a lesser clone to Horus as his backstory rumors.

 

I don't think it's insulting either that Abaddon is inferior to Horus either. That's his pathos, that of a man who can't catch up to his father and ultimately can't measure up to the old glory days. You see that alot in 40k with other factions and races, like with the Imperium, the Necrons and the Eldar.

 

Abaddon can't ever win either. That's also part of his pathos. Don't we have that great quote from A D-B on how the Chaos Gods always come to Abaddon after every Black Crusade, promising that this time he'll win? And Abaddon listens? It's essentially that. Abaddon is as much a slave of the Dark Gods as Horus, if not more so. He will never be able to achieve a lasting victory over the Imperium for the simple reason that the Chaos Gods won't let him.

[Vesper]

The whole Abaddon vs Eldrad was a battle report thing, IIRC.

And to me, the quote AD-B provided meant that unlike Horus, Abaddon has the strength to resist the gods long enough to win.

 

Speaking of Horus, his single goal was to topple the Imperium by slaying the Emperor. We can't say he has been really successful, nor very clever in the war he led.

Abaddon led thousands wars. And his goal is to take Terra. He's making his move by M41, after 10k years of preparations. And so far things are looking great for him.

[Gree]

The whole Abaddon vs Eldrad was a battle report thing, IIRC.

And it's just as canon as anything else in 40k.

 

And to me, the quote AD-B provided meant that unlike Horus, Abaddon has the strenght to resist the gods long enough to win.

He's getting his chain yanked by the Chaos Gods, as I've said before. It's as I've said before, Abaddon can't be a success because the Dark Gods simply won't let him win. It would be counter-productive to the Ruinous Powers if Abaddon actually did win. It's Charlie Brown with the football all over again.

 

That's a theme in 40k, the Chaos Gods are ultimately fickle and manipulative beings that play with their followers lives. Their followers often don't get what they want or what they expected from the deal. It's a classic Faustian bargain.

 

Speaking of Horus, his single goal was to topple the Imperium by slaying the Emperor. We can't say he has been really successful, nor very clever in the war he led.

Abaddon led thousands wars. And his goal is to take Terra. He's making his move by M41, after 10k years of preparations. And so far things are looking great for him.

Horus did more damage in seven years than Abaddon did in thirteen Black Crusades. Nobody else has really come closer to killing the Emperor or toppling the Imperium. Nobody else has caused a mass defection like Horus or has wrought the destruction that the Horus Heresy had. The fact that Abaddon has to conduct thousands of wars to start matching Horus, isn't a point in his favour.

 

Abaddon's greatest crusade, the 13th, hasn't come even close to the destruction of the Heresy, and since the Imperium basically controls the space lanes and orbital superiority, it's practically guaranteed to finish driving back the 13th.

[Vesper]

Horus did more damage in seven years than Abaddon did in thirteen Black Crusades. Nobody else has really come closer to killing the Emperor or toppling the Imperium. Nobody else has caused a mass defection like Horus or has wrought the destruction that the Horus Heresy had. The fact that Abaddon has to conduct thousands of wars to start matching Horus, isn't a point in his favour.

 

Abaddon's greatest crusade, the 13th, hasn't come even close to the destruction of the Heresy, and since the Imperium basically controls the space lanes and orbital superiority, it's practically guaranteed to finish driving back the 13th.

Horus' goal wasn't to do more damage. It was to win. And he failed miserably.

And it's pretty hard to judge Abaddon's success when he's actually launching the final assault. It's like judging Horus' global success after Istvaan.

[Gree]

Horus' goal wasn't to do more damage. It was to win. And he failed miserably.

Doesn't matter. The fact that he accomplished so much more than Abaddon is so much shorter a time really just speaks volumes. Abaddon's best efforts over ten millennia have not even come close to Horus's seven year long Heresy. The only logical conclusion that if Abaddon was only given seven years to destroy the Imperium, he would be much less successful than Horus.

 

And I don't really think Abaddon's 13th Crusade was a success, despite how much GW wants to present it as. We already saw the campaign results. The Imperium basically controls all orbital superiority around the Eye. The Forces of Chaos aren't proceeding further and it's only a matter of time before the Imperial Navy moves in and annihilates Abaddon's forces from orbit. It's basically the Storm of Chaos all over again.

[Clone]

I don't think you can really compare a military commander who had roughly half the imperial military behind him and a whole galaxy to freely move around against a commander who had to forcibly unite warring factions and break out the most heavily defended system in the galaxy. I'd expect Horus to have done more damage, he had many luxuries open to him compared to Abaddon, so much so it's hard to see how Horus failed but fail he did. Ultimately Horus is dead and Abaddon isn't.

[Loesh]

 

Horus did more damage in seven years than Abaddon did in thirteen Black Crusades. Nobody else has really come closer to killing the Emperor or toppling the Imperium. Nobody else has caused a mass defection like Horus or has wrought the destruction that the Horus Heresy had. The fact that Abaddon has to conduct thousands of wars to start matching Horus, isn't a point in his favour.

 

Abaddon's greatest crusade, the 13th, hasn't come even close to the destruction of the Heresy, and since the Imperium basically controls the space lanes and orbital superiority, it's practically guaranteed to finish driving back the 13th.

 

 

Actually, the Horus Heresy wasn't really all that big. Like i'v mentioned before, large swaths of the legions weren't even present for the final battle against the Emperor. It wasn't like all of the legions just marched on Terra, it's never been that easy. Ultimately, Horus while pushing the Primarchs over the edge, wasn't the one to lead them, and if anything a lot of successes during the Heresy can be chalked up to Lorgar and not Horus as essentially being the Uncle Sam of Chaos.

 

Furthermore, Abaddon doesn't really need the space lanes anymore. He's broken through Cadia, Chaos forces are scattering in a thousand different directions over the Imperium. It's not like he needs more reinforcements from the Eye, what he wanted to do is essentially already done.

[Gree]

Actually, the Horus Heresy wasn't really all that big. Like i'v mentioned before, large swaths of the legions weren't even present for the final battle against the Emperor. It wasn't like all of the legions just marched on Terra, it's never been that easy. Ultimately, Horus while pushing the Primarchs over the edge, wasn't the one to lead them, and if anything a lot of successes during the Heresy can be chalked up to Lorgar and not Horus as essentially being the Uncle Sam of Chaos.

I struggle to think of anything bigger.

 

No other conflict brought the Imperium closer to destruction. No other conflict dealt so much damage to the Imperium or affected how the Imperium was organized in the aftermath. The Emperor was put on the Golden Throne and the Space Marine Legions broken down. Lorgar may have been the high priest of Chaos, but Horus was the one who made it all come together. He was totally the one that lead them, Lorgar even says as much himself. Horus accomplished far more than Abaddon ever has.

 

Seriously, I struggle to think of a conflict that was more galaxy-changing and more vital than the Horus Heresy. No other conflict really defines the Imperium of today as the Heresy.

 

Furthermore, Abaddon doesn't really need the space lanes anymore. He's broken through Cadia, Chaos forces are scattering in a thousand different directions over the Imperium. It's not like he needs more reinforcements from the Eye, what he wanted to do is essentially already done.

I don't think you understand. The side that controls space has a massive, almost insurmountable advantage. The Imperium is able to interdict reinforcements, ship in their own reinforcements, isolate Chaos forces wherever they land and destroy them at leisure from orbit.

 

The logical consequence therefore is that the Imperium moves in with commendable speed, cuts off Chaos forces and hunts down the splintered groups while shipping in their own re-enforcements and taking back the worlds have have been conquered by Chaos. You have a bunch of raiders, but they aren't a long-term or major threat without supply lines or reinforcements.

 

And if you are talking about Abaddon's objectives in that campaign, he didn't achieve them, or at least he didn't achieve his objectives when he set out. If you have the White Dwarf articles from at the start of the campaign, it's all about going to Terra and destroying the Emperor. Abaddon even swore an oath to go to Terra. Needless to say, he didn't.

[Vesper]

Well, the campaign results disregard a lot, actually. That's no big surprise, as they were hastly written. For instance, what happens when the Chaos forces destroy the pylons on Cadia ? How will it impact the space around the Gate ? What remains of the Imperial Navy ? Apparently next to nothing if we are to believe the results. It may not even be able to, one day, break the Chaos hold on the space around Cadia itself.

 

And I don't even mention the coming of the Daemon Primarchs, the arrival of a tide of Daemons as per the Crimson Paths' many tears in the veil of reality, the Eye growing like crazy, the attack of the Red Corsairs and of all the dudes from the Maelstorm, the loss of most of the Segmentum Pacificus...

 

Abaddon is winning. And the new informations we get from here and there retcon the global campaign result to show him much more dominant over the forces of the Imperium than the hastly written results of old.

 

Doesn't matter. The fact that he accomplished so much more than Abaddon is so much shorter a time really just speaks volumes. Abaddon's best efforts over ten millennia have not even come close to Horus's seven year long Heresy.

Well, it matters to me. He didn't wanted to see the Imperium crumble, he wanted to rule it, as he thought he deserved. The damages he delt (what you call "accomplishments") were focused to the realisation of a single goal : become the new emperor. He failed so bad the Imperium was able to get a new golden age after the Heresy. The Heresy is a founding event of the Galaxy we know and love, by M41. Yet the Imperium is now in ruins, and faces no less than extinction. The situation is infinetly more dire than it was during the darkest hours of the Heresy. Ain't no Primarch or Emperor to save the day. Ain't no manipulated fool at the head of the Bringers of Doom.

 

The only logical conclusion that if Abaddon was only given seven years to destroy the Imperium, he would be much less successful than Horus.

The logical conclusion is that no one ever gave seven years to destroy the Imperium to anyone. Horus rushed the thing, but was slow enough to doom his attempt at blitzkrieging Terra. He ran fast, yet he ran to his death. Abaddon does't need to run. He has thousands of years to plan, to orchestrate his moment. Thousands of years to build himself as the true Champion of Chaos, as the syncretic avatar of them all. The one that can't be screwed by X or Y god because he's not the propriety of any of them. He has thousands of years to assure himself the support of the Dark Mechanicus, of the Titanic Legions, of the warbands of the Eye and beyond, of the endless masses of the Lost and the Damned, of the Daemons of Chaos. Thousands of years to get all the tools, and to deal the wounds that will assure him victory in due time.

The main difference between Abaddon and Horus is that Abaddon wins. The 13th Black Crusade is the extinction event of the Imperium.

[Loesh]

 

Actually, the Horus Heresy wasn't really all that big. Like i'v mentioned before, large swaths of the legions weren't even present for the final battle against the Emperor. It wasn't like all of the legions just marched on Terra, it's never been that easy. Ultimately, Horus while pushing the Primarchs over the edge, wasn't the one to lead them, and if anything a lot of successes during the Heresy can be chalked up to Lorgar and not Horus as essentially being the Uncle Sam of Chaos.

I struggle to think of anything bigger.

 

No other conflict brought the Imperium closer to destruction. No other conflict dealt so much damage to the Imperium or affected how the Imperium was organized in the aftermath. The Emperor was put on the Golden Throne and the Space Marine Legions broken down. Lorgar may have been the high priest of Chaos, but Horus was the one who made it all come together. He was totally the one that lead them, Lorgar even says as much himself. Horus accomplished far more than Abaddon ever has.

 

Seriously, I struggle to think of a conflict that was more galaxy-changing and more vital than the Horus Heresy. No other conflict really defines the Imperium of today as the Heresy.

 

Furthermore, Abaddon doesn't really need the space lanes anymore. He's broken through Cadia, Chaos forces are scattering in a thousand different directions over the Imperium. It's not like he needs more reinforcements from the Eye, what he wanted to do is essentially already done.

I don't think you understand. The side that controls space has a massive, almost insurmountable advantage. The Imperium is able to interdict reinforcements, ship in their own reinforcements, isolate Chaos forces wherever they land and destroy them at leisure from orbit.

 

The logical consequence therefore is that the Imperium moves in with commendable speed, cuts off Chaos forces and hunts down the splintered groups while shipping in their own re-enforcements and taking back the worlds have have been conquered by Chaos. You have a bunch of raiders, but they aren't a long-term or major threat without supply lines or reinforcements.

 

And if you are talking about Abaddon's objectives in that campaign, he didn't achieve them, or at least he didn't achieve his objectives when he set out. If you have the White Dwarf articles from at the start of the campaign, it's all about going to Terra and destroying the Emperor. Abaddon even swore an oath to go to Terra. Needless to say, he didn't.

 

 

Heck just off the top of my head, I think 'The Beheading' was closer to bringing the Imperium to it's knees. One member of the High Lords of Terra just goes rogue and kills everyone else, triggering a manhunt and throwing the entire empire into chaos. Yes the Emperor was downed in the final battle, but the Imperium was far from broken. The empire has been rotting away in no small part due to it's cyclical nature, with a number of rises and falls...some of them indeed larger then the Horus Heresy in scope. Even for the traitor legions, Horus is essentially a bad joke...yes his Heresy changed them into what they are, but it was just a single moment in time, a moment over ten thousand years.

 

As for the latter part of your post: I don't think it's that simple, they might isolate and destroy some Chaos forces, but the Imperium is in a riot with thousands of rebellions popping up and a Ork Waaaagh smashing in from another direction, there's no way they are actually going to contain their forces now. They don't need a lot of those supply lines because they are after all, raiders, and they just plunder every planet they smack into. A lot of Warbands function without the aid of a Forgeworld every day in the Eye of Terror, this kind of rough and tough guerrilla fighting is...essentially....just home.

[Gree]

Heck just off the top of my head, I think 'The Beheading' was closer to bringing the Imperium to it's knees. One member of the High Lords of Terra just goes rogue and kills everyone else, triggering a galaxy wide manhunt and throwing the entire empire into chaos. Yes the Emperor was downed in the final battle, but the Imperium was far from broken. The empire has been rotting away in no small part due to it's cyclical nature, with a number of rises and falls...some of them indeed larger then the Horus Heresy in scope.

I don't think it was closer to bringing the Imperium to it's knees. Did it cause the space marine military to be radically reorganized or half the Imperium's military forces to defect to the powers of Chaos? it was major, but it isn't so radically changing as the Horus Heresy was.

 

I don't really think there was any other upheaval larger than the Horus Heresy actually. The closest that comes is the Age of Apostasy and even that didn't have such radical cause and effect that the Horus Heresy had. It's pretty telling that the Heresy is the focus of a massive amount of attention on the background while all those others events receive much less attention.

 

As for the latter part of your post: I don't think it's that simple, they might isolate and destroy some Chaos forces, but the Imperium is in a riot with thousands of rebellions popping up and a Ork Waaaagh smashing in from another direction, there's no way they are actually going to contain their forces now. They don't need a lot of those supply lines because they are after all, raiders, and they just plunder every planet they smack into. A lot of Warbands function without the aid of a Forgeworld every day in the Eye of Terror, this kind of rough and tough guerrilla fighting is...essentially....just home.

A disorganized, splintered military force is generally not going to last long against organized, focused military force who basically controls space to an overwhelming degree. I don't think you realize just how much of an overwhelming advantage the Imperium as in that arena. Like it was a total curbstomp in the games of Battlefleet Gothic to the point where the Impial players definitely controled the space around the Eye.

 

To put this in a historical context, it's kinda like a bunch of disorganized pirates against the British Navy at the height of their power, except worse because the British Navy has an iron grip on the lanes around all the strategically vital bases and fortresses. It's different from a bunch of pirates killing each other for resources.

 

EDIT: The Orks and rebellions are a routine problem, and even other factions like the Tau or Tyranids are nowhere near the Ultima Segementum.

[Loesh]

 

Heck just off the top of my head, I think 'The Beheading' was closer to bringing the Imperium to it's knees. One member of the High Lords of Terra just goes rogue and kills everyone else, triggering a galaxy wide manhunt and throwing the entire empire into chaos. Yes the Emperor was downed in the final battle, but the Imperium was far from broken. The empire has been rotting away in no small part due to it's cyclical nature, with a number of rises and falls...some of them indeed larger then the Horus Heresy in scope.

I don't think it was closer to bringing the Imperium to it's knees. Did it cause the space marine military to be radically reorganized or half the Imperium's military forces to defect to the powers of Chaos? it was major, but it isn't so radically changing as the Horus Heresy was.

 

I don't really think there was any other upheaval larger than the Horus Heresy actually. The closest that comes is the Age of Apostasy and even that didn't have such radical cause and effect that the Horus Heresy had. It's pretty telling that the Heresy is the focus of a massive amount of attention on the background while all those others events receive much less attention.

 

As for the latter part of your post: I don't think it's that simple, they might isolate and destroy some Chaos forces, but the Imperium is in a riot with thousands of rebellions popping up and a Ork Waaaagh smashing in from another direction, there's no way they are actually going to contain their forces now. They don't need a lot of those supply lines because they are after all, raiders, and they just plunder every planet they smack into. A lot of Warbands function without the aid of a Forgeworld every day in the Eye of Terror, this kind of rough and tough guerrilla fighting is...essentially....just home.

A disorganized, splintered military force is generally not going to last long against organized, focused military force who basically controls space to an overwhelming degree. I don't think you realize just how much of an overwhelming advantage the Imperium as in that arena. Like it was a total curbstomp in the games of Battlefleet Gothic to the point where the Impial players definitely controled the space around the Eye.

 

To put this in a historical context, it's kinda like a bunch of disorganized pirates against the British Navy at the height of their power, except worse because the British Navy has an iron grip on the lanes around all the strategically vital bases and fortresses. It's different from a bunch of pirates killing each other for resources.

 

EDIT: The Orks and rebellions are a routine problem, and even other factions like the Tau or Tyranids are nowhere near the Ultima Segementum.

 

 

It just threw the Imperium in it's entirety into pure anarchy, which is pretty bad. Yes the Horus Heresy is when the Chaos Legions defected but a lot of them were in different parts of the galaxy or doing their own thing, the Night Lords weren't even able to participate in the siege before the scouring kicked off and pushed the Chaos Legions into the Eye. To me, the Horus Heresy get's more attention because...well...it has space marines heavily involved in it, rather then it being bigger.

 

*Shrug* Is the Imperium going to be able to handle them, the hordes of daemons, and those Orks at the same time? Said Ork invasion is also hardly routine, being backed by Alpha Legions and Night Lords as well as being absolutely massive in size. Vesper also covered the problems coming from the Maelstorm as well, to say the least, I don't think the Imperial Navy has a snowballs chance in hell of containing all of that.

[Tenebris]

Yet even so Abaddon is pushing things forward for Team Chaos. He is actually fighting back, achieving things, conquering worlds, he is acting as a figurehead for the traitor legions and this is a big thing. Sure he cannot hope to fight toe to toe with the Imperium's military might but that is why he is enacting the Path plan, where he is creating such discrepancies in the Warp that whole legions of daemons are pouring through. The astartes, the mortal hosts of Chaos are just the speartip, what he is unleashing upon the Imperium in fact are daemons, legions upon legions of daemons. He has countless, immortal and effective soldiers there, he can call upon the Warp to unravel the reality, to twist any battlefield to his favor and he is using the astartes, all of the Nine legions where only such veteran force is needed. He is wise, patient and very much deadly as a Warmaster of Chaos. 

 

To compare his achievements with those of Horus (which in fact are mostly the achievements of the XVIth legion) is a moot point. All those wars, all those battles were fought boots in the mud by the astartes so any military feat orchestrated by Horus has seen the participation of Abaddon, it was he who was killing the foe on ground level, him and thousands of other warriors. Horus was a charismatic leader and even in the books more often than not he just teleported in and beheaded the leadership of the enemy... that was his only contribution to the battle bar his generalship. 

 

At the time of the Heresy, Horus had legions, not the shattered remains of them, he had entire planetary domains backing him, countless regiments of guard, entire fleets and so on... What Abaddon has, is the remnants, traitors, betrayers, psychopaths and fanatics chained only due to mutual hatred for the Imperium and the Emperor. As I have said to compare Horus at the height of his power to Abaddon at the height of his power is moot, the only difference is that Abaddon's power was won trough personal skill, Horus's power base was given unto him by the Emperor and later by the Dark Gods.

 

As I have said we are derailing into a classic "who has it bigger" and I am tempted to use my mod voice but I will grant this concession. The aim of this topic is to explore the "relationship" between Abaddon and Horus, not their military might, not their prowess in combat or the favor of the Dark Gods. We are here to discuss the relationship between father and son, between a commander and a follower, between a betrayer and the betrayed...

 

You have been warned. 

[Gree]

EDIT: I apologize. I did not see Tenebris's post.

[Loesh]

...I thought the aim of the topic was who would beat the snot out of whom as well as their relationship Tenebris.

 

Maybe i'm just misunderstanding the OP's post.

[Vesper]

And everybody knows who has it bigger. But I try not to talk about it, I don't want to brag too much, I'm not that kind of guy.

[Tenebris]

 

A side note to this is that we are being groomed to believe in the HH series that a Primarch, created by the Emperor, with the assistance of Chaos, can defeat a god Emperor which some would say is the balance, the Star Child, the counter to Chaos. Horus is merely a gifted son, What equalizes them? It could be the Powers that Horus took by force in his centuries of war in the Warp might be the great equalizer?

 

Abaddon has a pilgrimage in hippy land as well. But he is not even a Primarch, simply a gifted (we don't know how he got it) marine. While this might put him on a level above your average chapter master, does it make him close to Horus?

 

Post Vengeful Spirit I wonder how Abaddon can speak so ill of Horus? I understand the corpse of the Horus had to be burned, it was tearing them apart, and creating their own identity seemed to help the Sons/Black Legion move on, but otherwise I can't see how this is respectful, or even acccurate of Abaddon to say.

 

What do you guys think?

 

The purpose here is to find, or try to find an answer to why Abaddon perceives his genefather as a failure, why he hates Horus, why he restored the Sons of Horus in a different image in the idea that Horus was in fact the Sacrificed King, a failure, a fraud, a bitter memory and a painful past which shackled countless Sons of Horus and led them into their deaths.

 

The concept of "power" is precursory for the exploration of this concept, of this relationship. So let's keep it in line gents.

[Gree]

And everybody knows who has it bigger. But I try not to talk about it, I don't want to brag too much, I'm not that kind of guy.

Well I suppose if a mod has provided warning than that train of discussion must end here. I am entirely willing to privately continue this by PM if you wish.

[Loesh]

 

 

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So knowing what we know at this time, do believe that Horus would have any difficulty defeating Abaddon? Assume both are at the top of their powers.

 

Abaddon wants to kill the emperor as much as Horus did (0r so it appears). But is he capable of it? Horus , we're lead to believe' is as potent as the Emperor, just as powerful. But we still are only 487 novels into the storyline so we don't know for a while how it will play out.

 

One GW source I read indicated the Emperor held back a lot, and it was only when Horus dealt that anathema blow that would lead to the Emperor's slow death that the Emperor lets loose an epic psychic attack that destroys Horus in such a way that makes you believe he could have done so at any time.

 

Granted, now the Emperor is in a wheel chair, and a shard of his former self. Considering the story never progresses beyond 30K we will never know how far Abe gets.

 

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

 

 

 

I hate to argue, but he also says this just above. Not that I think it's a topic we wouldn't go in circles for hours about.

[Kol Saresk]

One question. What did Horus achieve?

[Vesper]

 

And everybody knows who has it bigger. But I try not to talk about it, I don't want to brag too much, I'm not that kind of guy.

Well I suppose if a mod has provided warning than that train of discussion must end here. I am entirely willing to privately continue this by PM if you wish.

I was joking, in the sentence you quoted.

[Wade Garrett]

The thing about the Crimson Path is, Abaddon wants to rule the galaxy. The materium, the world of flesh and blood, not a bunch of ephermal warp nonsense where left is up and right is cheesecake and thinking the wrong thing will make your brain grow tentacles and eat you.

 

Engulfing the galaxy in warp storms isn't going to get him that. And blowing up the pylons at Cadia....

 

The Cadian Gate is such a big freaking deal because it's a stable route for fleets to sail into and out of the Eye of Terror. Because of the pylons.

 

Blowing them is essentially Abaddon cutting himself off from his lines of resupply and reinforcement that don't depend on applying his tongue to the feet of the Dark Gods.

 

I am open to correction here, but as I understand it Ezekyle's ideal endgame is "I'm not the Warmaster. I'm your new Emperor. A better one." Exploding the Cadian Gate with mass daemon summoning isn't going to get him that.

[Loesh]

The thing about the Crimson Path is, Abaddon wants to rule the galaxy. The materium, the world of flesh and blood, not a bunch of ephermal warp nonsense where left is up and right is cheesecake and thinking the wrong thing will make your brain grow tentacles and eat you.

 

Engulfing the galaxy in warp storms isn't going to get him that. And blowing up the pylons at Cadia....

 

The Cadian Gate is such a big freaking deal because it's a stable route for fleets to sail into and out of the Eye of Terror. Because of the pylons.

 

Blowing them is essentially Abaddon cutting himself off from his lines of resupply and reinforcement that don't depend on applying his tongue to the feet of the Dark Gods.

 

I am open to correction here, but as I understand it Ezekyle's ideal endgame is "I'm not the Warmaster. I'm your new Emperor. A better one." Exploding the Cadian Gate with mass daemon summoning isn't going to get him that.

 

Well, my understanding is that Chaos Sorcerers and Possessed make navigating, even in a gigantic Eye of Terror easier. That's what i'm thinking he's thinking anyways, but he's probably not really understanding things all the way through either.

 

My personal headcannon is no one plays the Chaos Gods, so I like this interpretation.