Horus vs Abaddon: Post Vengeful Spirit / Talon of Horus

[Kol Saresk]

Imagine the Cadian Gate is a two laned road. And imagine that the pylons are rail guards and trees that keep it from being expanded into bigger lanes. By blowing the pylons, Abaddon is able to take that two lane road, and make eight lanes in each directions.

 

And Abaddon wants to rule the Imperium. He just realizes he can't do that if he ascends and becomes a daemon. So he remains mortal. It doesn't mean that he doesn't want the Immaterium to bleed out into reality. I doubt he'd care beyond whatever tactical advantages it gives him.

 

Also, what has Horus achieved that is so much more than Abaddon? IIRC, the Heresy was Lorgar's baby.

[Loesh]

I always feel like I occupy some weird inbetween space with the posters here(Not that it's bad at all, I apperciate the diverse opinions in the B&C.) on one hand, I agree with Kol that the Heresy really was Lorgars baby despite what he himself might say on the matter, and that Abaddon is undeniably greater then Horus in many respects.

 

But on the other hand I also think Abaddons not a perfect chessmaster, personally I don't see him as above the Daemon Primarchs who I feel should retain mastery over their respective domains and tend to view Abaddon more as a figurehead and the Black Legion, ultimately only one component(If the leading component) of the armies of Chaos. Much like Fabius Bile and Slaanesh, I feel Abaddon likes to think he's above and beyond the Chaos Gods and he'll take over the Imperium, but I don't think the Chaos Gods would ever let him off the hook. In the end, I see him as another tool...a much more precise tool...but still a tool for the Ruinous Powers.

[Gree]

Blowing them is essentially Abaddon cutting himself off from his lines of resupply and reinforcement that don't depend on applying his tongue to the feet of the Dark Gods.

 

I am open to correction here, but as I understand it Ezekyle's ideal endgame is "I'm not the Warmaster. I'm your new Emperor. A better one." Exploding the Cadian Gate with mass daemon summoning isn't going to get him that.

That seems odd. You seem to be expecting him to be some sort of unstoppable doom warlord instead of a pawn of the Dark Gods. Don't you know about Abaddon's pathos? He wants to be Emperor and destroy Terra. The leadup to the 13th Black Crusade had Abaddon explicitly swearing blood oaths to the Dark Gods to go to Terra and kill the Emperor.

 

Of course the Chaos Gods won't let him. That ambition is precisely the reason why Abaddon is always kept from victory by the Chaos Gods who don't want him to win. Then they come to him after each defeat and offer that maybe, just maybe, he might win next time. It's Charlie Brown and the football situation.

[Lay]

I'm out of the loop. Where does it say that Abaddon doesn't want the Cadian pylons destroyed? Or that the Gods hamper with the Black Crusades?

[Gree]

Or that the Gods hamper with the Black Crusades?

 

I believe this post from A D-B.

 

http://aarondembskibowden.wordpress.com/2013/08/22/lets-talk-about-abaddon/

 

 

Abaddon has not failed because he is wilful or incompetent. He has mustered the greatest armies since the Heresy and unleashed them upon the material universe. He has amassed power and influence within the Eye of Terror greater than any primarch. He has done this through feat of arms and personality, but the one thing he can never truly do, because it is anathema to Chaos, is truly unite the ruinous powers. They can only come together in dominance, not subservience. Whenever Abaddon has been on the brink of victory his backers break ranks, seeking to gain some last-minute short-term advantage.

 

Ultimately, a win for Abaddon is a loss for Chaos. If he becomes Emperor he has everything he desires and they can hold nothing over him. And so they continue to dangle the carrot, continue to be his patrons, giving him daemonic power and servants, ordering their mortal representatives to debase themselves and serve his will, all in the hope of snatching the final victory of Abaddon for themselves.

 

 

At least for me, this was when I understood that Abaddon was not some unstoppable doom warlord, but rather a pawn of the Ruinous Powers who thought he would outsmart them and win that final victory over the Emperor. To use the Peanuts analogy, it's Charlie Brown trying to kick the football that Lucy holds, but Lucy snatches away success at the last minute.

 

That is Abaddon's pathos, that in the end, he is just another pawn of the Ruinous Powers that deludes himself to thinking he is above them. In the end, after each failure, they come to him again and offer him one more chance at victory, one more chance for their support.

 

And he listens, and the Long War continues.

[Wade Garrett]

Imagine the Cadian Gate is a two laned road. And imagine that the pylons are rail guards and trees that keep it from being expanded into bigger lanes. By blowing the pylons, Abaddon is able to take that two lane road, and make eight lanes in each directions.

 

Except that is not how the pylons and the Warp work. At all. They stabilize the area around Cadia enough that you can warp travel into and out of the Eye. The Imperium knows this (Eisenhorn trilogy). The Traitor Legions know this (Dark Disciple trilogy).

 

Blowing the pylons means that any reinforcements Abaddon tries to call out of the Eye or any attempt to return there for resupply will end up arriving two hundred years before the Thirteenth Crusade, five centuries afterwards, never showing up at all, and all the other wonky stuff Warp travel can throw at you.

 

The Crimson Path goes beyond any "Failbaddon" meme, this isn't Abaddon shooting himself in the foot, this is stabbing himself in the face with Drach'yen while yelling "I'm killing the Emperor! I'm killing the Emperor!"

 

 

And as far as it being Lorgar's Heresy, I can see how you could say that. After all, he:

 

Convinced Mortarion to turn on the Emperor. No, wait, that was Horus.

 

Convinced Perturabo to betray the Emperor. Wait, my bad, Horus again.

 

Changed Russ's orders to force Magnus to betray the Emperor or die...no, this was Horus too.

 

Turning the Fabricator General? Horus.

 

Angron? Horus again.

 

Alpharius did whatever the heck he/they are doing because of the Cabal, Fulgrim picked up the wrong sword, and Curze went bad with no input from anybody but his own tortured psyche needed.

 

So I'm not seeing where the idea that Lorgar did everything and Horus's sole contributions were to scream "Where's my statue?" on Davin and cry himself to death on Terra comes from.

[Loesh]

 

Imagine the Cadian Gate is a two laned road. And imagine that the pylons are rail guards and trees that keep it from being expanded into bigger lanes. By blowing the pylons, Abaddon is able to take that two lane road, and make eight lanes in each directions.

Except that is not how the pylons and the Warp work. At all. They stabilize the area around Cadia enough that you can warp travel into and out of the Eye. The Imperium knows this (Eisenhorn trilogy). The Traitor Legions know this (Dark Disciple trilogy).

 

Blowing the pylons means that any reinforcements Abaddon tries to call out of the Eye or any attempt to return there for resupply will end up arriving two hundred years before the Thirteenth Crusade, five centuries afterwards, never showing up at all, and all the other wonky stuff Warp travel can throw at you.

 

The Crimson Path goes beyond any "Failbaddon" meme, this isn't Abaddon shooting himself in the foot, this is stabbing himself in the face with Drach'yen while yelling "I'm killing the Emperor! I'm killing the Emperor!"

 

 

And as far as it being Lorgar's Heresy, I can see how you could say that. After all, he:

 

Convinced Mortarion to turn on the Emperor. No, wait, that was Horus.

 

Convinced Perturabo to betray the Emperor. Wait, my bad, Horus again.

 

Changed Russ's orders to force Magnus to betray the Emperor or die...no, this was Horus too.

 

Turning the Fabricator General? Horus.

 

Angron? Horus again.

 

Alpharius did whatever the heck he/they are doing because of the Cabal, Fulgrim picked up the wrong sword, and Curze went bad with no input from anybody but his own tortured psyche needed.

 

So I'm not seeing where the idea that Lorgar did everything and Horus's sole contributions were to scream "Where's my statue?" on Davin and cry himself to death on Terra comes from.

 

 

That's hardly all Horus did I agree, but for example when turning Fulgrim one of the key parts of the deception was convincing old Fulgy that the Emperor wanted to become a god with some parts of the Lectitio being waved in his face while Erebus was being a smug arse in one corner of room, likewise Erebus had converted Typhus who would lead the Death Guard to a rather ill fated trip through the warp. The Horus Heresy really was Lorgar and his legions deception, was his baby, and while Horus was a big player he wouldn't of been able to do any of that without Lorgars help.

 

Which isn't to say Lorgar isn't a bit of a dupe himself, after all, Erebus was a big component of that and both he and Kor snickered behind their Primarch's back when he didn't go along with their plans. But still, I don't consider the Horus Heresy as being so much of the Horus success story that the name would have you believe.

[Wade Garrett]

Typhus was instrumental in turning his Legion into fat zombies, but they had already betrayed the Emperor long before they all degenerated into plague marines. Because Mortarion had more loyalty to Horus than the father who humiliated him on Barbarus.

 

And I have to agree with the daemon of the sword, Horus and Erebus's "Hey Fulgrim howyadoin let's kill Dad!" was amateur hour nonsense and without it scrambling the Phoenician's brain there would have been ten loyal legions for them to deal with, not nine.

[Loesh]

I would argue that Fulgrims problems were more complicated then just the sword, such as his insecurity over his own legions short numbers and the fear they might have some imperfection, but really I could go on for hours about Fulgrim..the books...flaws and interesting, if sometimes poorly executed, ideas.

 

And Mortarion despite siding with Horus inevitably came to have some contempt for his fellow traitors, but Typhus sealed the deal...by simply giving him no choice. That was what turned them to Chaos rather then just being a bunch of renegades.

 

Again i'm not arguing Horus was minimal(His whole stick is that he is the best Primarch with the best legion.) but the Heresy I hardly think was all him either. The Word Bearers were the ones to convert Horus after all, and their zealotry is what would really let Chaos spread. Ultimately, the Horus Heresy was more a product of his failure and not his success, in the end he regrets everything, he see's that his been a puppet all this time, that's what makes it a tragedy.

[A D-B]

 

Or that the Gods hamper with the Black Crusades?

 

I believe this post from A D-B.

 

http://aarondembskibowden.wordpress.com/2013/08/22/lets-talk-about-abaddon/

 

 

Abaddon has not failed because he is wilful or incompetent. He has mustered the greatest armies since the Heresy and unleashed them upon the material universe. He has amassed power and influence within the Eye of Terror greater than any primarch. He has done this through feat of arms and personality, but the one thing he can never truly do, because it is anathema to Chaos, is truly unite the ruinous powers. They can only come together in dominance, not subservience. Whenever Abaddon has been on the brink of victory his backers break ranks, seeking to gain some last-minute short-term advantage.

 

Ultimately, a win for Abaddon is a loss for Chaos. If he becomes Emperor he has everything he desires and they can hold nothing over him. And so they continue to dangle the carrot, continue to be his patrons, giving him daemonic power and servants, ordering their mortal representatives to debase themselves and serve his will, all in the hope of snatching the final victory of Abaddon for themselves.

 

 

At least for me, this was when I understood that Abaddon was not some unstoppable doom warlord, but rather a pawn of the Ruinous Powers who thought he would outsmart them and win that final victory over the Emperor. To use the Peanuts analogy, it's Charlie Brown trying to kick the football that Lucy holds, but Lucy snatches away success at the last minute.

 

 

Quite the opposite, really. That was Horus: a pawn of the Chaos Gods. Abaddon, however, is the icon they desperately want... but refuses them. And, more tellingly in this case, he's sometimes their enemy, because a win for him is a win for him... not for Chaos. That's why they - occasionally - even work against him. Horus was always just their pawn - it's why he regrets everything at the end. Abaddon has to fight other Chaos Marines and daemons on a scale Horus could never have imagined, because... well, Chaos. That doesn't make him a pawn. It makes him the one thing they need, but can't trust, or deceive, or reliably use. He's the opposite of a pawn: that's his entire deal. He doesn't worship Chaos. He's not deluded by it. It's a means to an end. It tries, again and again, to lure him in and use him, but he doesn't give in.

 

That's not to say he can't ever be decieved. That'd be boring as heck. He can, like any sentient being, be deceived by humans, daemons, etc. But as an overriding thing, naw, he's not a pawn. His main deal is... well, it's why he is such a big deal. It's why he is the unstoppable warlord you assert that he's not. That said, some of the best stories I can think of come from moments when he, and his Legion, aren't necessarily on an A+ best-course-of-action road, so I'm well aware (and keen) to show the times the Black Legion gets screwed over. You've got to struggle, or victory is pointless.

 

And remember, that's just one slice of a much, much larger text. Don't get me wrong, what you're saying is an interesting angle on Abaddon and it's certainly possible, Gree... but naw, it's exactly "true", if you get me (in a setting where truth is hilariously, awesomely relative). That's just one slice of a much, much bigger picture.

 

Perhaps most vital of all, it's just an interesting angle from research notes between authors. It's not from anything published. Abaddon (so the prophecies say, and so the lore suggests) is the doom of the Imperium. He's pretty much going to win it all... after the game is set. A couple of sentences from much larger character discussion notes doesn't bypass decades of the game's published lore. It doesn't mean he's suddenly a pawn when his entire published shtick is that he's not (and, obviously, I'd argue that the entire point of that extract is that he's the opposite of a pawn; Chaos wants him desperately, but can't rely on him to choose them over his own ambitions - he's too strong for that, so they very occasionally work against him). 

[Wade Garrett]

My thing is, once upon a time there was another man who wasn't a pawn of Chaos. Oh, he could and did make use of it for his own ends....but he didn't worship it, and he wasn't deceived by it, he just took what he needed from it and slammed the door in the Dark God's faces.

 

His armies didn't overshadow his closest rival by a factor of seven...they did so by millions if not billions. He could rip apart reality with the sheer force of his will. Prophecies? He had those in spades, all foretelling his inevitable triumph. This man had it all on a silver platter.

 

And it was about this time that his son Magnus exploded out of the basement shouting "Dad! Dad! Horus has lost his mind and he's gonna come kill you! Also, I seem to have opened a gate to hell in the basement. Sorry about that."

[Vesper]

Or that the Gods hamper with the Black Crusades?

I believe this post from A D-B.

http://aarondembskibowden.wordpress.com/2013/08/22/lets-talk-about-abaddon/

Abaddon has not failed because he is wilful or incompetent. He has mustered the greatest armies since the Heresy and unleashed them upon the material universe. He has amassed power and influence within the Eye of Terror greater than any primarch. He has done this through feat of arms and personality, but the one thing he can never truly do, because it is anathema to Chaos, is truly unite the ruinous powers. They can only come together in dominance, not subservience. Whenever Abaddon has been on the brink of victory his backers break ranks, seeking to gain some last-minute short-term advantage.

Ultimately, a win for Abaddon is a loss for Chaos. If he becomes Emperor he has everything he desires and they can hold nothing over him. And so they continue to dangle the carrot, continue to be his patrons, giving him daemonic power and servants, ordering their mortal representatives to debase themselves and serve his will, all in the hope of snatching the final victory of Abaddon for themselves.

At least for me, this was when I understood that Abaddon was not some unstoppable doom warlord, but rather a pawn of the Ruinous Powers who thought he would outsmart them and win that final victory over the Emperor. To use the Peanuts analogy, it's Charlie Brown trying to kick the football that Lucy holds, but Lucy snatches away success at the last minute.

Quite the opposite, really. That was Horus: a pawn of the Chaos Gods. Abaddon, however, is the icon they desperately want... but refuses them. And, more tellingly in this case, he's sometimes their enemy, because a win for him is a win for him... not for Chaos. That's why they - occasionally - even work against him. Horus was always just their pawn - it's why he regrets everything at the end. Abaddon has to fight other Chaos Marines and daemons on a scale Horus could never have imagined, because... well, Chaos. That doesn't make him a pawn. It makes him the one thing they need, but can't trust, or deceive, or reliably use. He's the opposite of a pawn: that's his entire deal. He doesn't worship Chaos. He's not deluded by it. It's a means to an end. It tries, again and again, to lure him in and use him, but he doesn't give in.

That's not to say he can't ever be decieved. That'd be boring as heck. He can, like any sentient being, be deceived by humans, daemons, etc. But as an overriding thing, naw, he's not a pawn. His main deal is... well, it's why he is such a big deal. It's why he is the unstoppable warlord you assert that he's not. That said, some of the best stories I can think of come from moments when he, and his Legion, aren't necessarily on an A+ best-course-of-action road, so I'm well aware (and keen) to show the times the Black Legion gets screwed over. You've got to struggle, or victory is pointless.

And remember, that's just one slice of a much, much larger text. Don't get me wrong, what you're saying is an interesting angle on Abaddon and it's certainly possible, Gree... but naw, it's exactly "true", if you get me (in a setting where truth is hilariously, awesomely relative). That's just one slice of a much, much bigger picture.

Perhaps most vital of all, it's just an interesting angle from research notes between authors. It's not from anything published. Abaddon (so the prophecies say, and so the lore suggests) is the doom of the Imperium. He's pretty much going to win it all... after the game is set. A couple of sentences from much larger character discussion notes doesn't bypass decades of the game's published lore. It doesn't mean he's suddenly a pawn when his entire published shtick is that he's not (and, obviously, I'd argue that the entire point of that extract is that he's the opposite of a pawn; Chaos wants him desperately, but can't rely on him to choose them over his own ambitions - he's too strong for that, so they very occasionally work against him).

You could've also said "Vesper's right", but that's fine .

My thing is, once upon a time there was another man who wasn't a pawn of Chaos. Oh, he could and did make use of it for his own ends....but he didn't worship it, and he wasn't deceived by it, he just took what he needed from it and slammed the door in the Dark God's faces.

His armies didn't overshadow his closest rival by a factor of seven...they did so by millions if not billions. He could rip apart reality with the sheer force of his will. Prophecies? He had those in spades, all foretelling his inevitable triumph. This man had it all on a silver platter.

And it was about this time that his son Magnus exploded out of the basement shouting "Dad! Dad! Horus has lost his mind and he's gonna come kill you! Also, I seem to have opened a gate to hell in the basement. Sorry about that."

I'm sure one of the ways the dark gods use to get to Abaddon, lure him and threaten him, is by using those close to him, those who don't necessarily have the same strength, the same understanding of how things work.

[A D-B]

My thing is, once upon a time there was another man who wasn't a pawn of Chaos. Oh, he could and did make use of it for his own ends....but he didn't worship it, and he wasn't deceived by it, he just took what he needed from it and slammed the door in the Dark God's faces.

 

His armies didn't overshadow his closest rival by a factor of seven...they did so by millions if not billions. He could rip apart reality with the sheer force of his will. Prophecies? He had those in spades, all foretelling his inevitable triumph. This man had it all on a silver platter.

 

Yes, from an in-character viewpoint. But I don't believe you can't honestly see the difference, here.

 

Beyond the in-character ignorance of living in the setting is the fact that Emperor was always the Immortal God-Emperor, and the stuff about him walking around was mythic backstory. It happened in the universe, but it's the setting's background. We know he failed and have known since Day 1 of Warhammer 40,000 because the fact he failed is a key point of the setting. Just like Abaddon's been the herald of the end since the Chaos Marines basically got their lore heavily detailed. And just like the eventual victory of Chaos is a key point in the setting, too. The Crimson Path, Abaddon himself; the 13th Black Crusade - they're midnight.

 

Yes, there are other alien threats - the Imperium is beset on all sides, and that rocks - and Mankind versus Aliens has always been a theme. They're part of the midnight theme, too. But the absolute core of Warhammer 40,000 has always been Mankind against itself; humanity against the predations of Chaos; our species dooming itself. And Abaddon is the mortal incarnation of that: he's Satan coming back to take God's throne because the Lord disrespected His angels and gave souls to the monkeys. And because it's 40K, and we all know 40K's themes, Chaos will eventually, inevitably, win. Not in our games, but after them. In the hours after midnight.

[Gree]

Quite the opposite, really. That was Horus: a pawn of the Chaos Gods. Abaddon, however, is the icon they desperately want... but refuses them. And, more tellingly in this case, he's sometimes their enemy, because a win for him is a win for him... not for Chaos. That's why they - occasionally - even work against him. Horus was always just their pawn - it's why he regrets everything at the end. Abaddon has to fight other Chaos Marines and daemons on a scale Horus could never have imagined, because... well, Chaos. That doesn't make him a pawn. It makes him the one thing they need, but can't trust, or deceive, or reliably use. He's the opposite of a pawn: that's his entire deal. He doesn't worship Chaos. He's not deluded by it. It's a means to an end. It tries, again and again, to lure him in and use him, but he doesn't give in.

I respect your opinion, but I am secure in my interpretation of the 40k setting. Loose canon and all that. I don't really think Abaddon is as independent as he believes, nor do I think he is as resistant to the influence as Chaos as he thinks he does.

 

After all, that's one of the themes in this setting is it not? That the followers of Chaos rarely get what they want in the end. Worshippers of Slaanesh are never truly able to satisfy themselves, worshippers of Khorne might start off as honourable warriors, but in the end they are just blood-crazed worshippers to the Blood God.

 

In a way, even the Emperor thought he was above Chaos and he was eventually played by them.

 

That is Abaddon's pathos, I think. That of a mortal man trying to outsmart the gods, but always being caught in that cycle of war and failure, only to again repeat it. It was elicits pity and sympathy from the fanbase. It's almost Sisyphean.

 

It's why he is the unstoppable warlord you assert that he's not.

So he is the unstoppable doom warlord then. See Wade?

 

Don't get me wrong here, while I think I've made my feelings on the Black Legion clear, I do want to believe Abaddon is some unstoppable doom warlord that prophesies the End Times. I just don't think the current evidence really supports that.

 

I hope you don't take offence at this, but I really don't think Abaddon is going to win, nor do I think that there is going to be some grand final victory over the Imperium with the 13th Black Crusade. Chaos itself might, but that's not the same as the Traitor Legions themselves achieving such a victory. I certainly know what GW wants to push forward, but Death of the Author and all that.

[A D-B]

 

Quite the opposite, really. That was Horus: a pawn of the Chaos Gods. Abaddon, however, is the icon they desperately want... but refuses them. And, more tellingly in this case, he's sometimes their enemy, because a win for him is a win for him... not for Chaos. That's why they - occasionally - even work against him. Horus was always just their pawn - it's why he regrets everything at the end. Abaddon has to fight other Chaos Marines and daemons on a scale Horus could never have imagined, because... well, Chaos. That doesn't make him a pawn. It makes him the one thing they need, but can't trust, or deceive, or reliably use. He's the opposite of a pawn: that's his entire deal. He doesn't worship Chaos. He's not deluded by it. It's a means to an end. It tries, again and again, to lure him in and use him, but he doesn't give in.

I respect your opinion, but I am secure in my interpretation of the 40k setting. Loose canon and all that. I don't really think Abaddon is as independent as he believes, nor do I think he is as resistant to the influence as Chaos as he thinks he does.

 

After all, that's one of the themes in this setting is it not? That the followers of Chaos rarely get what they want in the end. Worshippers of Slaanesh are never truly able to satisfy themselves, worshippers of Khorne might start off as honourable warriors, but in the end they are just blood-crazed worshippers to the Blood God.

 

In a way, even the Emperor thought he was above Chaos and he was eventually played by them.

 

That is Abaddon's pathos, I think. That of a mortal man trying to outsmart the gods, but always being caught in that cycle of war and failure, only to again repeat it. It was elicits pity and sympathy from the fanbase. It's almost Sisyphean.

 

It's why he is the unstoppable warlord you assert that he's not.

So he is the unstoppable doom warlord then. See Wade?

 

Don't get me wrong here, while I think I've made my feelings on the Black Legion clear, I do want to believe Abaddon is some unstoppable doom warlord that prophesies the End Times. I just don't think the current evidence really supports that.

 

I hope you don't take offence at this, but I really don't think Abaddon is going to win, nor do I think that there is going to be some grand final victory over the Imperium with the 13th Black Crusade. Chaos itself might, but that's not the same as the Traitor Legions themselves achieving such a victory. I certainly know what GW wants to push forward, but Death of the Author and all that.

 

 

It's a tough spot. Forum chatter aside, when it comes to actual publications I try my best to make various possibilities not only, uh, 'possible' but also plausible. I tried that with the Night Lords, as an example, where they all perceived their own history - their own Legion, even - in wildly different ways. Any one of them could've been right or wrong, because they all had evidence to support their claims. Obviously, they had to rely on their eyes, with no rulebooks to read.

 

Take your angle on Abaddon, f'rex. It's one I personally like a lot, and I have very similar thoughts. That even at the top, there are still certain cracks in the facade, and those are the kinds of cracks that appeal to me in a character, as long as the character ultimately has narrative agency. Ahriman is another example; a character that will do anything to meet his own ends - absolutely certain that just around the next corner is the last piece of the puzzle. He has no idea just how deeply in thrall to Tzeentch he is, or at least how deeply Tzeentch is screwing him over in that glorious way so typical of the God of Change. Ahriman's drive and ambition exists in absolute defiance of what we readers know is unalterably true, but it doesn't make him look weak to be deceived/ignorant, and it doesn't rob him of narrative agency.

 

That said, while I like how you see Abaddon (because, let's be honest, it's nuanced and freaking awesome) it's not something I can propagate as an absolute truth in a publishable work. I've always intended certain characters to believe things like that about Abaddon - and Abaddon himself is intelligent enough to speculate on it himself in his moments of doubt. But it's not a rare ironclad truth in this beautiful, shifting setting. A great deal of Abaddon's character in 20 years of lore is based on the opposite, in fact: he's the One that will end the Imperium, he's the One that is going to succeed where Horus failed, and he's the One that is independent in exactly the way those notes suggest. He's the icon the Chaos Gods desperately want, but he refuses to be in their thrall. I can't go against that because, ultimately, it genuinely is the core truth of the character in the setting. I mean, for a start... why would I lie? Secondly, why would other authors and IP folks lie to me in the course of discussing the character?

 

Don't get me wrong, the beauty of the setting is in the interpretation. There are very few absolute truths. But a lot of in-universe evidence, as well as the setting's lore, points to Abaddon's exaltation in the terms mentioned in detail above. It's why he's special. It's why he's the exception to the rule. That's his deal, or a massive chunk of his deal, at least.

 

If that changes, I'd be more than willing to change with it... but it's not my job to change something so fundamental to 40K. I'm not saying your perspective is useless (the reason it's compelling is because it's interesting and there's always evidence for cool perspectives) but I literally can't write Abaddon that way, or I'd be doing the license an injustice, because that's not who Abaddon is. When the people who have written about Abaddon for 20+ years are the ones saying that, you can kinda see why it's them who I listen to.

 

What I can - and intend to - do, is present a credible argument that your perspective might be true, as well as many others. Just like with the Night Lords of First Claw and their various beliefs, all backed up by various evidence and perspective. The key in good 40K writing (I think, at least) is never to say "Actually, yeah, it's just this." The best 40K writing shows a situation, then shows why every single character involved believes his or her own truth based on it.

 

This very topic is a great example. Drach'nyen is another, actually. Khayon is among several knowledgeable characters that won't think Drach'nyen is necessarily an A+ idea, but they'll be opposed by other characters, more and less knowledgeable alike, who think otherwise. And they'll all have their reasons.

[Wade Garrett]

 

 

My thing is, once upon a time there was another man who wasn't a pawn of Chaos. Oh, he could and did make use of it for his own ends....but he didn't worship it, and he wasn't deceived by it, he just took what he needed from it and slammed the door in the Dark God's faces.

 

His armies didn't overshadow his closest rival by a factor of seven...they did so by millions if not billions. He could rip apart reality with the sheer force of his will. Prophecies? He had those in spades, all foretelling his inevitable triumph. This man had it all on a silver platter.

Yes, from an in-character viewpoint. But I don't believe you can't honestly see the difference, here.

 

Beyond the in-character ignorance of living in the setting is the fact that Emperor was always the Immortal God-Emperor, and the stuff about him walking around was mythic backstory. It happened in the universe, but it's the setting's background. We know he failed and have known since Day 1 of Warhammer 40,000 because the fact he failed is a key point of the setting. Just like Abaddon's been the herald of the end since the Chaos Marines basically got their lore heavily detailed. And just like the eventual victory of Chaos is a key point in the setting, too. The Crimson Path, Abaddon himself; the 13th Black Crusade - they're midnight.

 

Yes, there are other alien threats - the Imperium is beset on all sides, and that rocks - and Mankind versus Aliens has always been a theme. They're part of the midnight theme, too. But the absolute core of Warhammer 40,000 has always been Mankind against itself; humanity against the predations of Chaos; our species dooming itself. And Abaddon is the mortal incarnation of that: he's Satan coming back to take God's throne because the Lord disrespected His angels and gave souls to the monkeys. And because it's 40K, and we all know 40K's themes, Chaos will eventually, inevitably, win. Not in our games, but after them. In the hours after midnight.

I have a few problems with that. First of all, I don't see "Chaos winning" being the equivalent of "Abaddon wins".

 

Secondly, we need to nail down just what we're talking about when we say "Chaos wins", and it is here that I descend into "my opinion is" and "how I interpret the fluff leads me to conclude".

 

To borrow a quote about another group of nigh omniscient evil entities, Chaos (and here I speak of the Four, not the Traitor Legions, or the renegades, or the lost and the damned) isn't interested in anything so prosaic as "winning". It just goes on.

 

Tzeencht is the most blatant example here. He has billions of schemes running at any given moment, at least half of which will be directly opposed to the other half. Because it's the conspiring, the plotting, and the scheming that he values, not the success or failure of any given plan.

 

Khorne is the lord of war. Not conquest, not victory, but war and bloodshed. Any end to fighting, even that of "my enemies are all dead" is anathema to him. He'll find new enemies or turn his allies and servants against one another, for he cares not from where the blood flows, only that it does. Forever.

 

Nurgle rules over decay, despair, and disease...but not death. The Grandfather doesn't want to kill you with his plagues, quite the opposite. An end to sickness, even the oblivion brought by the reaper's scythe? Perish the thought.

 

And of course Slaanesh is always lusting and never satiated. Always in search of more and better highs.

 

Chaos has no real need to see Abaddon overthrow the Imperium and crown himself god king of the galaxy. That's his goal, his win. Their's is that the game continue, or, as Magnus said in Scars, that the Legions tear one another's throats out for all eternity.

 

In the grim darkness of the far future there is only war, and the laughter of thirsting gods....

[A D-B]

 

 

My thing is, once upon a time there was another man who wasn't a pawn of Chaos. Oh, he could and did make use of it for his own ends....but he didn't worship it, and he wasn't deceived by it, he just took what he needed from it and slammed the door in the Dark God's faces.

 

His armies didn't overshadow his closest rival by a factor of seven...they did so by millions if not billions. He could rip apart reality with the sheer force of his will. Prophecies? He had those in spades, all foretelling his inevitable triumph. This man had it all on a silver platter.

Yes, from an in-character viewpoint. But I don't believe you can't honestly see the difference, here.

 

Beyond the in-character ignorance of living in the setting is the fact that Emperor was always the Immortal God-Emperor, and the stuff about him walking around was mythic backstory. It happened in the universe, but it's the setting's background. We know he failed and have known since Day 1 of Warhammer 40,000 because the fact he failed is a key point of the setting. Just like Abaddon's been the herald of the end since the Chaos Marines basically got their lore heavily detailed. And just like the eventual victory of Chaos is a key point in the setting, too. The Crimson Path, Abaddon himself; the 13th Black Crusade - they're midnight.

 

Yes, there are other alien threats - the Imperium is beset on all sides, and that rocks - and Mankind versus Aliens has always been a theme. They're part of the midnight theme, too. But the absolute core of Warhammer 40,000 has always been Mankind against itself; humanity against the predations of Chaos; our species dooming itself. And Abaddon is the mortal incarnation of that: he's Satan coming back to take God's throne because the Lord disrespected His angels and gave souls to the monkeys. And because it's 40K, and we all know 40K's themes, Chaos will eventually, inevitably, win. Not in our games, but after them. In the hours after midnight.

I have a few problems with that. First of all, I don't see "Chaos winning" being the equivalent of "Abaddon wins".

 

Secondly, we need to nail down just what we're talking about when we say "Chaos wins", and it is here that I descend into "my opinion is" and "how I interpret the fluff leads me to conclude".

 

To borrow a quote about another group of nigh omniscient evil entities, Chaos (and here I speak of the Four, not the Traitor Legions, or the renegades, or the lost and the damned) isn't interested in anything so prosaic as "winning". It just goes on.

 

Tzeencht is the most blatant example here. He has billions of schemes running at any given moment, at least half of which will be directly opposed to the other half. Because it's the conspiring, the plotting, and the scheming that he values, not the success or failure of any given plan.

 

Khorne is the lord of war. Not conquest, not victory, but war and bloodshed. Any end to fighting, even that of "my enemies are all dead" is anathema to him. He'll find new enemies or turn his allies and servants against one another, for he cares not from where the blood flows, only that it does. Forever.

 

Nurgle rules over decay, despair, and disease...but not death. The Grandfather doesn't want to kill you with his plagues, quite the opposite. An end to sickness, even the oblivion brought by the reaper's scythe? Perish the thought.

 

And of course Slaanesh is always lusting and never satiated. Always in search of more and better highs.

 

Chaos has no real need to see Abaddon overthrow the Imperium and crown himself god king of the galaxy. That's his goal, his win. Their's is that the game continue, or, as Magnus said in Scars, that the Legions tear one another's throats out for all eternity.

 

In the grim darkness of the far future there is only war, and the laughter of thirsting gods....

 

 

Here's the thing. I've spent too long on this already, so I'll keep it brief. 

 

Yes. Possibly. Probably not, but yes, possibly. And the "possibly" part is what's important. That's my answer.

 

We're not discussing (and haven't discussed) what I think, necessarily. I don't really weigh in with my opinion on a lot of this. Just what I can reveal from discussions behind the curtain, and the perspective gleaned. I'm not falling back on "Gav Thorpe / Andy Chambers / Bob from Accounting say you're wrong" or whatever, but similarly there are certain souls whose informal words and published writing carry significant weight in just what's really what, in a setting where few things are nailed down.

 

It's not my job to change what Abaddon is. It's my job to portray what he already is, what he appears to be, and hopefully add nuance and depth, through the lenses of those that look at him. Luckily, because those lenses are held by imperfect souls, what's "right" doesn't necessarily matter. Just like Talos and the other Night Lords were all varying degrees of ignorant; that ignorance - which in turn fuels possibility - is practically the point of the setting. 

 

And as I replied above to Gree (which also covers your points) all I intend to do (and therefore, the only stuff that will be published and "official") is present the possibilities. Gree's. Yours. Mine. Everyone's. It's all grist for the mill. It's all gravy. It's all... name something else beginning with G. Whatever.

 

And since "midnight" is a moot point, none of this really even matters. But that's no fun. Discussions like this are freaking glorious. I can't adequately explain how energising this stuff is for me, as fuel for the clickety-clack of keys. 

[Tenebris]

Allow me to present my interpretation about Abaddon. As I have said time and again I do see Abaddon the Despoiler as the Warmaster of Chaos, and I see Horus Lupercal as the Warmaster of the Traitor Legions (see the difference). We have a creature of Chaos where the other is a pawn of Chaos. Both command vast armies, both have the allegiance of the Dark Gods and both command thousands upon thousands of marines but eventually Abaddon is the true Warmaster of the two, the true champion of Chaos.

 

Is he actually capable to achieve what the set out to do, to kill the Emperor, to topple the rotting edifice that is the Imperium of Man, to become the true master of mankind? Indeed he is, he is very much capable to achieve this, but as ADB said his victory is a victory for himself, for the "illuminated" part of mankind and certainly not a victory for the Dark Gods. 

 

To say that Abaddon is not the actual Warmaster of Chaos is to deny a very fundamental aspect of the character, the "bearer" of the Mark of Chaos Ascendant, he has four patron gods and with a mere thought he would be a daemon prince, probably even more powerful and high in stature than Be'Lakor. We speak of a mortal, of an astartes whose every breath is already that of an immortal champion, he is a mere step, a mere wish away from total, complete daemonhood, from immortality, from eternal glory... and from eternal slavery to his dark patrons. Imagine for a moment, with a mere wish you would have everything, power, immortality, servants, glory, eternity, magic, every wish fulfilled, every your whim appeased... imagine now that you have such a focus, such a presence of mind, spirit and fierce control that you refuse this with every breath you take, with every word you utter and with every action you take. 

 

Not only that but the more you postpone this glorious ascension the more is promised to you, the more servants fall under your banner, the more the gods praise you, legion of daemonic concubines are offered, legions of immortal soldiers, legions of scribes knowing every secret and spell prostrate before you and legions of bloodthirsty warriors answer your call. To Abaddon not only power is promised but a step short of divinity, of utter magnificence of Chaos. Yet he still refuses...

 

Imagine you wearing his skin knowing that anything you ask or wish would be given to you, yet you refuse to ask, you deny yourself to wish. This is Abaddon, his goal is for himself, and to an extent to humanity. In time he was revealed to be much more than just a chaos warlord, the chaos warlord, he was proven to be a scholar, a historian, a scientist, and above all a visionary.

 

We speak of a creature that was mighty even before he was genforged into an astartes, we speak of an astartes who was primus inter pares in the most esteemed legion, and when this angel, when this mighty being understood the nature of Chaos and he shackled it to his adamant will he became the avatar not only of Chaos but of the legions, of the mortals who defy the Imperium, of mankind in its most powerful and deadly aspect, of mankind when clad in arrogance and draped with power, sorcerous power, military power, political power...

 

All this and more is Abaddon, he is like the allegorical figure of mythology, he has so many aspects that is hard to define him as a mere astartes warlord. A Slaaneshi would see him as the utter sinner, the exalted champion of the Dark Prince; a Tzeentchian would see in Abaddon the ultimate mastermind, one of the most illuminated scholars of mankind; on the other hand a Nurglite would see in Abaddon the enduring majesty of the Lord of Decay, the entropy, the stability that this galaxy needs, as for a Khornate, Abaddon would be one of the mightiest warriors of the Blood God, a conqueror,a warlord, a tyrant who is able to instill such fierce discipline that even the unruly legions of Khorne stand at attention. For the mortals, for us mere mortals, he is like the apparition of the allegorical Lucifer. Awe, terror, lust, greed, emotions unleashed, and all teachings and all creeds are overturned when his name is spoken and his presence made manifest. On Pandorax the mere appearance of Abaddon sent a regiment sprawling on the ground, vomiting, suicides happen, people turned their guns on their former companions and so on,... it is a tectonic, a monumental event when the fallen angel strides among the living. 

 

To deny Abaddon this dark majesty is to deny the Chaos faction its Warmaster, to deny that Chaos is indeed victorious for whom else other than Abaddon achieved so much, conquered so much and bleed the Imperium so much. The Black Legion ravages the Imperium for ten thousand years, the Horus Heresy lasted a few decennia. Also to compare the achievements of Horus to those of Abaddon is pointless to say the least. If one thing is certain is that Chaos is fraction, friction and madness unraveled, but also determination and fierce focus when need be. Horus conquered so much and did so much because he had the full might of the Imperium backing him, Abaddon on the other hand carved an empire in the Eye, the single, most deadly, and most insane place a mortal soul could find itself. He had to build an infrastructure to support the Black Crusades, not just point the target for them, he had to actually trade in souls for bullets, armor and warriors, he had to play the labyrinthine politics with the four Dark Gods and with countless other minor entities, not just with mortals, but with daemons, xenos and who knows what else... all this while on constant move, in constant conflict and constant betrayal and denial...

 

One just asks himself how did Abaddon achieve all this when countless tried and countless failed, their souls now playthings for the Dark Gods. Is this just due to licence or because Abaddon is truly an exceptional creature, an unique creature in the 40k universe. Why Abaddon, and why no one else? We know Chaos will eventually win and we know that the chief architect of this victory is Abaddon and not the Dark Gods. Also at this moment in the 40k timeline, the 999.M41 who really, of all the valiant imperial souls has even a shred of chance to fight toe to toe with Abaddon and walk from the contest as the victor, who among the xenos too?

 

Abaddon is by this time in the timeline a creature that transcended so many aspects that he is above and beyond all other mortals, he is at the same time the apex astartes, the apex mortal, the apex champion of Chaos and eventually the apex man, for he is very fond of his mortality indeed, he achieved all this as a geneforged mortal and not as a geneforged demigod like his father. In all terms he transcended his nature, his geneforging and his conditioning, he is unshackled, unclaimed and yet still very much pure, and for this the Dark Gods come to him time and again with sweet promises.

 

Does this make him as an "overpowered" character? No, not because of Chaos, not because of Abaddon himself. The power he wields is of his own making, he created the Black Legion, he obtained the favor of the Dark Gods, he is now shattering the Imperum of Man. He achieved this because he "weaponized" hell itself for the battle ahead of him. He is powerful and mighty, because he is in fact powerful and mighty, he has always been, even as a hive gangster, even as a low scum murderer, he was always Abaddon, he was strength, will and determination clad into impenetrable armor, always at the head of all events, meaningful events that happened during the Great Crusade, the Horus Heresy and then the Black Crusades, he was there boots on the ground, armed, dangerous and oh so resolute, determined. 

 

As I have said in a past post, you did not become First Captain in the XVIth Legion just because you looked like Horus, he became the First Captain because Abaddon indeed had the qualities that made him the natural choice. His will, his determination and I hope we will soon read more about it, his political acumen. Following that you did not fought in battles fought by demigods and came out alive, but he did, he survived Terra, he survived the Scouring, he was there aboard the Vengeful Spirit and we can bet that he kicked the Emperor once or twice even back then, when the master of mankind was on the ground, bleeding. You do not create a legion, not a warband, a legion up from thin air if you do not know exactly how would you do it, if you are not a born leader, diplomat, conqueror, warlord, politician... and you do not bleed the Imperium of Man for ten thousand years, every year, every month, every day, drop by little drop, if you are not a creature with a megalomaniacal power and intent, with a will so adamant to endure all those years of the Long War. 

 

It is all to easy to see Abaddon as a puppet, but ask yourself, is the above really the work, the achievements of a puppet, of a mere tool of the Dark Gods, or there really is truth behind this archnemesis persona, about this Warmaster of ours named Abaddon? I think there is truth and ample of it, spread across almost twenty years of the 40k licence and countless snippets of lore. The only thing, is that only now, after so many years, this truth, or rater truths, interpretations, are being collated and Abaddon is being shaped into this very drammatis personae that Chaos always had and at the same time always needed to be a veritable threat in the Warhammer mythology, a veritable concept as a faction and as a set of beliefs. 

[Wade Garrett]

A daemon prince higher than Be'Lakor?

 

He's probably not the best example you could have chosen. This is a being of unimaginable power...whose entire existence is defined by anxiety over whether he is still his own man or a mere puppet on strings, to a degree that his goal is to get close enough to Abaddon to try and backstab him, thus determining once and for all whether he has free will or his every action is predestined by the Ruinous Powers.

[Tenebris]

Indeed, in afterthought Be'Lakor is not the proper example but Abaddon would indeed make for a very impressive Daemon Prince of Chaos Undivided, a threat, if I may say, to each and all of the Chaos gods, known and unknown. 

[Lord Marshal Ragnrok]

 

 

Or that the Gods hamper with the Black Crusades?

 

I believe this post from A D-B.

 

http://aarondembskibowden.wordpress.com/2013/08/22/lets-talk-about-abaddon/

 

 

Abaddon has not failed because he is wilful or incompetent. He has mustered the greatest armies since the Heresy and unleashed them upon the material universe. He has amassed power and influence within the Eye of Terror greater than any primarch. He has done this through feat of arms and personality, but the one thing he can never truly do, because it is anathema to Chaos, is truly unite the ruinous powers. They can only come together in dominance, not subservience. Whenever Abaddon has been on the brink of victory his backers break ranks, seeking to gain some last-minute short-term advantage.

 

Ultimately, a win for Abaddon is a loss for Chaos. If he becomes Emperor he has everything he desires and they can hold nothing over him. And so they continue to dangle the carrot, continue to be his patrons, giving him daemonic power and servants, ordering their mortal representatives to debase themselves and serve his will, all in the hope of snatching the final victory of Abaddon for themselves.

 

 

At least for me, this was when I understood that Abaddon was not some unstoppable doom warlord, but rather a pawn of the Ruinous Powers who thought he would outsmart them and win that final victory over the Emperor. To use the Peanuts analogy, it's Charlie Brown trying to kick the football that Lucy holds, but Lucy snatches away success at the last minute.

 

 

Quite the opposite, really. That was Horus: a pawn of the Chaos Gods. Abaddon, however, is the icon they desperately want... but refuses them. And, more tellingly in this case, he's sometimes their enemy, because a win for him is a win for him... not for Chaos. That's why they - occasionally - even work against him. Horus was always just their pawn - it's why he regrets everything at the end. Abaddon has to fight other Chaos Marines and daemons on a scale Horus could never have imagined, because... well, Chaos. That doesn't make him a pawn. It makes him the one thing they need, but can't trust, or deceive, or reliably use. He's the opposite of a pawn: that's his entire deal. He doesn't worship Chaos. He's not deluded by it. It's a means to an end. It tries, again and again, to lure him in and use him, but he doesn't give in.

 

That's not to say he can't ever be decieved. That'd be boring as heck. He can, like any sentient being, be deceived by humans, daemons, etc. But as an overriding thing, naw, he's not a pawn. His main deal is... well, it's why he is such a big deal. It's why he is the unstoppable warlord you assert that he's not. That said, some of the best stories I can think of come from moments when he, and his Legion, aren't necessarily on an A+ best-course-of-action road, so I'm well aware (and keen) to show the times the Black Legion gets screwed over. You've got to struggle, or victory is pointless.

 

And remember, that's just one slice of a much, much larger text. Don't get me wrong, what you're saying is an interesting angle on Abaddon and it's certainly possible, Gree... but naw, it's exactly "true", if you get me (in a setting where truth is hilariously, awesomely relative). That's just one slice of a much, much bigger picture.

 

Perhaps most vital of all, it's just an interesting angle from research notes between authors. It's not from anything published. Abaddon (so the prophecies say, and so the lore suggests) is the doom of the Imperium. He's pretty much going to win it all... after the game is set. A couple of sentences from much larger character discussion notes doesn't bypass decades of the game's published lore. It doesn't mean he's suddenly a pawn when his entire published shtick is that he's not (and, obviously, I'd argue that the entire point of that extract is that he's the opposite of a pawn; Chaos wants him desperately, but can't rely on him to choose them over his own ambitions - he's too strong for that, so they very occasionally work against him). 

 

 

 

That is the single most useful piece of information on Abaddon i have ever read (obv it should be pretty useful considering who you are).  It has shed a huge amount of light on Abaddon and now understand his character in a completely different way. I never got the sense from anything else that Abaddon was not a true believer in chaos, i mean obv he is selfish, but then again most chaos guys are, so i guess its not always easy to tell the difference. I think what is most encouraging is that this is a far more realistic description of him than anything else iv read.  Its good to know that he does have more limitations than i thought. This is definitely the most positive reading iv had regarding "can we beat Abaddon". And thats considering the fact that GW seems to give chaos everything good or at least a counter to anything the Imps have.

[Tenebris]

Still the main question here remains unanswered. Why is Abaddon so hostile to the memory of the father he cherished, why is he willing to reject everything Horus has done, why he turned down the legacy of Lupercal and forged a new one, a black one, the Black Legion?

[Lucien Eilam]

That's not unanswered. He answered it himself, practically the moment he was introduced:

 

“Horus was weak. Horus was a fool. He had the whole galaxy within his grasp and he let it slip away.”

[Wade Garrett]

Well, it's always easier to hate someone you once loved than it is to remain indifferent to them.

[Karthak]

 

Yes, there are other alien threats - the Imperium is beset on all sides, and that rocks - and Mankind versus Aliens has always been a theme. They're part of the midnight theme, too. But the absolute core of Warhammer 40,000 has always been Mankind against itself; humanity against the predations of Chaos; our species dooming itself. And Abaddon is the mortal incarnation of that: he's Satan coming back to take God's throne because the Lord disrespected His angels and gave souls to the monkeys. And because it's 40K, and we all know 40K's themes, Chaos will eventually, inevitably, win. Not in our games, but after them. In the hours after midnight.

If that's true then I don't know if I can call myself a true 40k fan, since the notion of Chaos inevitably winning is genuinely revolting to me.