Guard/Militarum TOO vehicle-centric?

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

I came into the hobby back in 3rd ed and after dabbling with BA started IG (and they will always be imperial guard to me not this...other bullstink), and back then vehicles were a big part of the army, and important, and they coudl field more vehicles than pretty much any other army, and that's part of what i liked about them.

 

now however it seems like the army book has gotten too vehicle-centric. the navy has kept me from having time to go out and get the new codex, so correct me if i'm wrong, but even going off of the previous (real) IG codex you could have an entire army of nothing but vehicles.

 

looking at it from real world war situation you can not win with only tanks and aircraft unless you completely level EVERYTHING within sight to ensure the enemy isn't hiding any where, infantry is necessary in warfare.

 

4 or 5 tanks (russ variants, basilisks, etc) a squadron of sentinals and chimeras to transport troops is enough for my tastes but now you can have what 4 or 5 squadrons of tanks, and as well as squadrons of lighter vehicles and aircraft...seems ridiculous to me.

 

am i the only one who feels this way? and don't tell me "if you don't like it then you can use more infantry" thanks  gak-head i know that, this is a discussion/debate thread on the merit of such vehicle heavy playlists from both in game and fluff perspectives as well as personal tastes.

[WarriorFish]

You've never been able to field vehicle only lists with the Guard codex, the difference is in the 7th Ed rules that allow unbound armies - ones that don't use the FOC. So in that respect every army can field pure vehicle lists (except nids, of course). A vehicle heavy list has durability and can throw a lot of dice down the table but they've extremely vulnerable to assault, which is where the infantry usually come in as with real life.

 

The cost of the vehicles tends to keep the numbers down a bit, as Russes are varying levels of expensive and of course without proper support they become relatively more expensive as they go pop by turn 2... While tank regiments do exist in the fluff they're more the domain of Apocalypse sized battles and as much as I love tanks I'll not leave home without infantry support as they last longer and are more effective together.

[Inquisitor_Lensoven]

thanks for the correction. it has been well over 9 months since i've looked at any of the IG codeci, and in general i have admittedly been out of the hobby for a long time now. i thought that there was some sort of rule about command tanks and allowing you to take tanks as troops or something, but again i'm probably just confused.

 

as i said before i've been out of the hobby for a while now, but every time i've peeked back in it's seemed like the IG armies i've seen for the most part have just been overly saturated with heavy tanks and aircraft.

[CoffeeGrunt]

Yeah, it's a bit like Nidzilla lists. You can do it with minimal Troops inside the Force Org Chart, or do it Unbound and take whatever you fancy. I generally use the FOC a lot and used to run a tank-heavy list with Pask in an HQ squadron, a couple of tank units for firepower, and some Veterans to fill the necessary Troops allotment. It was  a fun list so long as I pre-warned my opponent to bring Anti-Tank units, but an incredibly brittle one that pretty much always lost.

 

Now I tend to run a more "balanced" list involving Sentinels, Hellhound chassis, Leman Russes, Artillery and a whole bunch of Guardsmen, potentially with Air Support and Stormtroopers into the mix. IMO the Tank Company setup of nothing but Leman Russes is good, fun and fluffy, but not actually all that great, especially against Marines with their Krak Grenades on everything or Dark Eldar with Lances on everything. 

 

As I found with my Tau, the Imperial Guard and arguably the game as a whole works a whole lot better with a "combined-arms" approach mixing various elements to support each other's weaknesses. E.g., I buddy up Fast Attack units with advancing Chimeras, to make up for their lack of firepower or speed by intercepting Marines with Banewolves, or having Sentinels follow behind the Chimera firing Autocannons to suppress a pesky Raider full of Blasterborn. As always, the Conscript blob is awesome for bubble-wrapping your tanks and artillery, as well, but those are old tactics you're likely familiar with.

 

Tank Commanders are a good setup, but not amazing, much like anything else in the Codex. They can get pricey, and there's only really one Order you'll be issuing every turn. If you have a HQ slot and 30pts free, they can't hurt to upgrade a Russ squadron with, but they're still potentially going to be one shot killed by a Lascannon, (though, other than Yarrick, every HQ we have suffers this, but they can often hide behind other loyal soldiers!)

[WarriorFish]

You can get tank commanders now which is cool, perhaps you're thinking of the Forge World Armoured Company list? Mechanised lists can be effective, as Chimeras a pretty good are keeping troops alive as well as being fairly durable and good fire platforms. The reality is that a few Guardsmen don't tend to last all that long now so it's always good to have a good number of them, especially if you're not mechanising them.

 

Flyers have the benefit of being difficult to hit without a specialist AA weapon which is why you might see them, plus the Valkyrie and Vendetta are arguably among the better flying units and offer some flexibility to a Guard list we don't usually have. For example the Valkyrie can drop in a squad wherever you want and the Vendetta while expensive is our best AA unit and a capable tank hunter.

 

The other factor is real prices for stuff as well as the effort involved. Guardsmen are quite cheap to field so for many it's a lot cheaper and quicker to add a tank to your list. At least to begin with, as I always say you can never go wrong with painting a few more Guardsmen up when in doubt :)

[cypherthefallenangel]

I dont think the codex is too vehicle-centric. It can be if thats what you want it to be. You will still have to take some infantry as troops unless you run the IA vol1 sec ed codex that allows you to take russes as troops. Personally i think the AM codexs power lies in a combined armes approach of massed infantry supported by armor. Our air support isn't that great anymore thanks to GW making tau completely overpowered with anti-air and the vendetta nerf didn't help either.

[CoffeeGrunt]

To be fair to the Tau, it's not like their Fliers are worth taking, so there's that. :P

[march10k]

I spam vehicles till the cows come home....but about half of them are usually chimeras.  My mechanized guard lists have as many troops as most other armies, it's just at 6 points a model for a veteran, I have more points to spend on tanks.  But surely you don't think five veteran squads (with chimeras that may roll around empty, serving as superscoring light tanks instead of transports)  is horribly light on infantry?  Even my power-armor-based DA lists (deathwing is obviously a different story!) don't usually have more than 50-60 marines...like 4-5 ten man tactical squads and one devastator squad...Yeah, you'll see me put fifteen or more vehicles on the table....but that doesn't mean no troops, it's just that most of the vehicles are 40 (armored sentinel with multilaser) or 65 (chimera) points appiece...  When I can field an AV12 vehicle for about the cost of a terminator, you're going to drown in them!

[Boomkapow]

most of my lists have vets in chimeras, infantry blobs foot slogging, CCS, 3-5 Leman Russ' and some other various tidbits. I admit it looks very tank heavy, but many of my tanks are chimeras carrying troops. But lets be honest, 7th ed. is more to blame for tank spam than any individual codex.