AM Lorecrafting vs SM Lorecrafting

[Julgolax]

Hello folks. I've had this question on my mind lately and I would like some opinions on the issue. For years I've read some interesting, even excellent DIY lore on Space Marine Chapters and Chaos Space Marine Warbands, but I've struggled to find any fleshed out Astra Militarum regiments / battalions. I have come to realize that Space Marines are a different beast altogether from Astra Militarum but the concept of DIY lore can be applied to any army in the game, except for Grey Knights of course. I remember perusing an Imperial Guard codex from 6th Edition and finding such interesting armies such as the Elysians, Jouran Dragoons, Kaledon Hunters and Savlar Chem Dogs as well as spotted several pictures of awesome forces of alternate Mordian Iron Guard, Valhallans, Vostroyans, and  even a converted Empire-themed Astra Militarum regiment. These inspired me greatly and if it weren't for the ridiculous prices and policies GW employs, I'd be all over the new Astra Militarum with my own characterful regiment idea.

 

The problem I'm running into is where the character of an Astra Militarum regiment actually comes from because of my general lack of knowledge behind it and the nature of the army itself. Where Space Marines can potentially survive for hundreds of years and experience countless battles against all comers, men and women of the Astra Militarum have an exteremely short life expectancy and those who do manage to survive their first, second, and even third engagements are often mind-wiped or put to death for just seeing things. (I've had a peek at the old Imperial Guard handbook... appalling that... So I'm wondering what kind of character a regiment can actually have and what kind of individual characters are actually in a regiment as well. Also, like the Space Marines, there has to be a level of conformity to the Imperial doctrines and the Imperial Creed otherwise you run the risk of sounding like a rebel or traitor army, hence why there are no longer beastmen regiments, space dwarves and very few abhumans in general. The thing is this is the imperial army, there are even MORE rules and doctrines that the force has to conform to in regards to it's structure, planetary culture, and fighting style.

 

So, how to pull off a characterful force like the established ones, Vostroyans, Cadians, Valhallans, Tallarn, Catachans and such, without breaking the rules and calling down the wrath of the Imperium at large?

[WarriorFish]

The beauty of the Guard in the lore is that they can be almost anything. If you want Vietnam Rambos in your army you can do that, if you want WWII Desert Rats you can do that too - and you can do both in the same army too. That's before you even consider the wider regiments of the Imperium and before you add DIY regiments. The customisation options are unrivalled :D

Part of being the Guard is to be part of something far greater than yourself. You may die on the battlefield but the regiment and it's glories live on, so that's the focus of your army's backstory. Of course all regiments will also have their share of heroes to carry the day and snatch victory from the jaws of defeat but they are just milestones on the grander journey of the regiment.

If you read the fluff for some of the official regiments you'll find that the Imperium is actually quite flexible with regards to how regiments act and organise themselves. Aside from the leviathan nature of the Guard and the countless regiments it consists of what the Imperium really cares about is loyalty and results. That's ignoring what the Imperium doesn't know, as things will slip through the many cracks of the cumbersome bureaucracy

So if you want to do a certain idea it's just a matter of seeing how it can work within the established lore and that's easier than you'd think Marines are harder to conjure something up with compared to Guard as they have more restrictions, so I'm sure we can help you out :tu:

[Julgolax]

That's a complete 96 to what I originally thought of the Space Marines and Astra Militarum, theme-wise. :P

 

I suppose I've read too much about entire battalions of veterans of battles with the forces of Chaos or entire planetary defense forces being executed just because of what they saw/heard or because their commanders employed non-doctrinal tactics. XD

[Bonzi]

The difference between SM and AM character is that the SM characters and lore is based on their Primarchs and the deeds of their individual heroes.  By contrast, AM characteristics come from their founding world and the deeds of the regiment as a whole.  As others have said, in the AM the individual is lost in favor of the achievements of the unit/regiment and many stories go untold as entire worlds are lost to the flames or to the secrecy of the Inquisition.  Can you write immortal and unchanging fluff like the SM chapters have?  No, but it makes the stories that you do tell that much more power for their fleeting nature.  Think of AM like a mini-series with a defined story arc and a desired end vs a the SM which are more like a TV sitcom where they regurgitate the same stories ad nauseam until the show is cancelled and everything is left hanging.  Stories that have an end carry a lot more meaning because they do eventually end.

 

Write your AM fluff, focus on the deeds of the regiment and their founding world, and when it comes time for them to die in glory....let them.  Then pass on the regimental colors and insignia to the next group of green conscripts and let them tell their own story.

[Julgolax]

I love the Death Korps, Steel Legion, Vostroyans, Valhallans and greatcoats in general and I think it would be a perfect fit for my idea of a russian style siegeworks force. I used to like the idea of converting an AM force with Empire breastplates, helmets, feathers and other doodads but now that just feels cheap to me. I'm more into the gritty look of a legion of forlorn guys with imperial equipment and wacky tanks, artillery, and  aircraft. That said, why wouldn't I just do a regiment of Death Korps or Valhallans? Well the answer is simple, I want to make my own culture behind the regiment and my own color scheme using light grey, black and dark red. I'm just worried it would look like an army of commissars because the color scheme is very similar TO commissars. The idea is to have them all with a light grey greatcoat with black clothing, boots, gloves and leathers with gold imperial iconography and each one bears a red stripe on the coat that runs across the left flap of the front fold and down to the edge of the lower half. This symbolizes many things to them and is like Worf's honor sash or a roman senator's toga mark. Officers' stripes will have white pins applied for each battle they survive and any other honors they may come to bear.

 

I think, if this force were to be converted and painted properly, it would look quite striking, and as for the tanks and walkers, I've always liked the idea of painting an "Ion Storm" pattern. In keeping with the color scheme, I was thinking of a reddish Ion pattern rather than the traditional blue or all white colors, think thick red blaster bolts from star wars painted on the tanks in various sizes at a uniform angle.

 

I finally found the picture :D Sorry that it's small. Ion Storm Pattern

[Marshal Argos]

The "Ion Storm" coloring would prolly look pretty good.  You'll have to be careful with the Infantry colors, with so many dark colors running around the table I can imagine that you'd loose any sort of details in the sea of black.

 

Do you already know which models you plan on using to represent your army?

[hendrik]

You could perfectly convert dkok models to fit that description.cut off their head,add a new one and apply some greenstuff to resculpt the collar!

[WarriorFish]

Sounds like you have a good idea of what you want to do, you've just got to get the models Don't forget that there's nothing stopping you from using other regiments as the base as there is equipment and style sharing across the vast expanse of the Imperium so you could use DKoK models and scilpt some sashes on for example if you didn't fancy extra conversion work

[Julgolax]

The Death Korps figs are great but with Forgeworld miniatures being so expensive, even more so than Games Workshop's own plastics, I doubt it would be a very large army. :P

 

I'm mostly waiting and hoping for GW to release plastic Vostroyans or Valhallans some day. I honestly didn't understand why they came out with the Vostroyans to begin with, seeing as how they're almost identical to the Valhallans in the first place. The thing I don't like about the Vostroyans and some valhallans is their giant british guard fuzzy hats. Ushankas I don't mind since it's a classic design that looks right on the battlefield, but those giant fuzzy hats... I wouldn't feel very threatened by them if I were an enemy. :P

 

As for the color scheme, that was just an idea taking from my love of concrete bunkers, dragons' teeth, and the whole fortress thing that russia was famous for when the nazi germans invaded. The other scheme I had in mind was a scrubland camouflage with dark brown clothing and leathers, with black boots of course. To me, big bold bright colored armor and coats look snazzy but aren't very gritty or tactical. Bold, bright colors are for astartes who are made to be seen, not the average lineman.

[WarriorFish]

We're all waiting for new Guard model ranges... :( Fortunately third parties are picking some of the slack up.

[Julgolax]

It's too bad that GW is so coldly business-minded, I'm sure we'd all like to see our favorite army ranges get the gracious treatment that the Space Marines and Chaos Space Marines ranges do. For me personally, converting things with model putty is something that I don't think I have the skill to master so buying a ton of Cadian shock trooper boxes and 20 pounds of modeling putty to sculpt greatcoats would be a worthwhile effort. Now if there were cheaper, quality bits or kits out there, I'd be all over them.

[WarriorFish]

To be fair they can't do everything we want as it's just not practical :lol: We are due for an update though, even if you don't include the Cadian sprues which are still good - if we don't get something next codex then I'll have to go to Nottingham to have some very stern words with GW and maybe write a letter to their mother about how disappointed I am. I expect new Catachan troopers at the least.

 

That said, GSing greatcoats wouldn't be too hard I reckon, not with a bit of practice which you'd get plenty of over so many troopers :P Have a look to see what you can find as I'm sure there's some good tutorials out there and give it a go. You won't know unless you try! You could talk to Brother Captain Kage for some pointers too if you've seen his excellent Vostroyans.

[Kierdale]

I used to like the idea of converting an AM force with Empire breastplates, helmets, feathers and other doodads but now that just feels cheap to me.

Gives a haughty snort.

"Poppycock!"

Rides off on his horse.

 

I like the IG as, I feel moreso than with marines, you can do almost whatever you like image/culture-wise.

 

Anyway, I'm glad you've found a style you want to do.

I'm looking forward to seeing your work!

[Julgolax]

Back on topic, I'm wondering how a planet's original culture would be able to survive the ironclad dogma and merciless brutality of "imperialization", so to speak. One of my earlier ideas, back on this old thread that I nearly forgot about, I had the idea that a wayward system ruled by tyrannical factions of Ork and Human pirates and gangs was brought under heel a generation or two ago by my major character's grandfather. Now the system is ruled by my character who is a governor-militant, much like Lukas Alexander from Dawn of War: Dark Crusade.

 

The theme to me was striking and it played to my love of the Scions and the motivation factor to turn rebellious pirates and gangsters into loyal, glory-hungry soldiers of the Imperium. To me, this made sense both on how the regiment began and how it organized into a professional fighting force. The best part is, they use standard imperial equipment so and army of humdrum cadians actually would work. :P

[Kierdale]

I think it would depend to some extent on the Size of the Imperial forces which being the 'compliance'. A small task force might only be able to coerce an existing ruler to pay fealty to the Emperor, while a larger force could bring the whole infrastructure with them. Another factor would be follow-up: ad mech, mining operations, the Imperial Cult. More remote worlds might get these later or even be looked over.

Another point could be how 'hot' the sector is. If it's neighbouring a Warzone then it could become a base of operations and be subjected to more 'standard' Imperial culture.

[Julgolax]

Wouldn't an entire cadian regiment be enough to encompass the initial conquest and reclaimation? I mean of course the ad mech and other utilitarian services would move in if a sanction of governorship is granted, but initially it was just a rag-tag group of human pirates and gangsters. I'm sure an entire cadian regiment could conquer a planet no? A regiment isn't alone remember, some 3000 men are supported by several dozen tank companies, the navy, and thousands of other individuals supporting the troops on the ground and in the atmosphere.

[Marshal Argos]

Wouldn't an entire cadian regiment be enough to encompass the initial conquest and reclaimation? I mean of course the ad mech and other utilitarian services would move in if a sanction of governorship is granted, but initially it was just a rag-tag group of human pirates and gangsters. I'm sure an entire cadian regiment could conquer a planet no? A regiment isn't alone remember, some 3000 men are supported by several dozen tank companies, the navy, and thousands of other individuals supporting the troops on the ground and in the atmosphere.

 

 

Who says the regiment isn't alone, or that it is accompanied by more than anything than a few rats? 

 

In the last few Codex's / Rule Books, IG Regiments were put on the same track as SM's.  Each Rgt. contains only Infantry, only Artillery, etc... etc...  But if you've read FW's stuff, or any other background there's plenty of examples of this not being the case.  It all depends on what YOU want.  Do YOU want your Rgt to have armor and artillery, than do so.   But it doesn't have to be that way.

 

As for whether or not an example Regiment as you mentioned could take and hold a planet....  I HIGHLY doubt it.  It all depends on how motivated your enemy is.   Las-Guns have to be reloaded and recharged, Armor carries a limited amount of shells.  Against a population of a 80 million (about 25% of the size of the USA) and highly motivated (self destructive) cultists they would only be able to secure the ground on which the stand, and then only with resupply.  Go out, and you'll get swarmed by meat shields so the few that survive can take down your infantry.

 

On the other side, the population might be starved, poisoned or gassed down to a controllable level, and then that same Regiment could do a lot more.

 

There's a million planets, and 3 times that number of Rgts in the Imperium.  The chances are endless.  And that is what I find to be the best part of the IG.  I can do whatever I want, because with 1 million planets holding my back, I can pretty much do whatever I want.

[Julgolax]

Well, I'd have to see it for myself in the lore somewhere that an entire Cadian regiment is NOT supported by armor, fleet and ship-board foundry. o.O

 

As for my original idea, the regiment that conquered the planet was so supported and the people were just fractious bands of pirates and gangsters led by crimelords, hardly an organized military force and readily suppressed by the regiment. I did love the idea of one tyrant felled by another, more powerful one which is why it makes so much sense in my mind. It's exactly how the Militarum operates anyway. Now that my character, the governor-militant has had many years of overseeing the building of his dominion over the system, it's time for the regiment created by his father and grandfather to march on the neighboring system held by Orks and threatened by Tyranids. :)

[hendrik]

Mad robot miniatures makes some excellent russian greatcoats!i believe they are called kurgan

[Julgolax]

I just wanted to update the thread with my latest ideas and see what opinions come of them.

The theme I'm looking for closely resembles that of the Steel Legion because I like both of their backgrounds and their way of doing things. The Astra Militarum is capable of fighting wars in hundreds of different ways but to me there is no job the Militarum are better suited for than mechanized warfare. It's just how it is and I luckily enjoy that. With that said however, I've learned that Regiments are just large parts of an even larger whole that is an entire field army or corps, see the chart on the right. That said, for my background, I've decided on 4 regiments to make up the eventual force as a whole who are all citizens of a single planet in a 4-planet system. I thought it might be a little corny, yet fitting to use my birth sign and constellation as some inspiration for my force.

Segementum: Tempestus

Sector: Forsarr

Subsector: Gemini

System: Gemini Primaris

Home Planet: Castor III

Population: 34,000,000

Class: Civilized Mining World

Tithe Grade: Exactis Secundus

Background

Castor 3 is an Imperial mining planet that was uniquely suited to play host to the Imperial military. The planet's original cartels were tyrannical rulers who boasted a tithe grade second to none in the sector. That success was built upon the backs of men, women, and children who were worked beyond breaking point. The planet operated under their ruthless rule for centuries until the cartels made the mistake of striking deals with Eldar pirates who traded them cruel technologies illegal to possess in exchange for fresh slaves. Once these deals with xenos had been discovered, the sector battlefleet dispatched 3 regiments from Krieg with the task of bringing the cartels to justice and destroying their corrupt hierarchy and restoring order.

The regiments of Krieg brought swift end to the cartels ruling the planet which were ill equipped to defend themselves with a severely under staffed and under trained PDF. The planet's government and the cartels were dismantled and placed under imperial stewardship until the fate of the world was decided. Some 30 years later the populace was placed under the stern, yet fair governance of the retired fleet captain Harold Araggus. Under his governance the planet's mining operations were conducted more efficiently than ever, harvesting the precious reserves of ore and exotic jewels of the planet's crust. The people, though still under servitude, rejoiced at the lordship of Araggus who at least rewarded them for their toils in the deep, hot mines.

As Harold neared his death, his son Jonas Araggus was primed to take over the governorship. Unlike his father however, Jonas was still young and had dreams of expanding the planet's tithes into military forces rather than just raw materials. Though Jonas would never see his dream fully realized, his son and the grandson of Harold, returned from the sector military academy and vowed to fulfill his father's dream. After endless years and the most tedious processes, all at great expense, Edward Arragus had achieved his father's will and became the sector's first governor-militant and established the Castorian Corps. With the first regiments being trained and the Adeptus Mechanics establishing newly activated Manufactorums across the planet, Edward's last days were spent in comfort.

The fourth generation of the Arragus family saw the rise of the currant ruler of Castor 3, Dorian Arragus. His father Edward had personally seen to his sons training among the most elite of the regiments, the 1st Regiment. Dorian's training had honed him into a true soldier and his military bloodline had made him a leader of men. The first regiments of the Castorian Corps were made up of the tough miners who for generations had become unusually tough and easily indoctrinated people who made for perfect soldiers. Every family had to offer their firstborn son, from pauper to noble and in 20 years since his training ended, Dorian was ready to marshal his forces and begin accepting orders from Segmentum command.

Castorian Corps Colors: white coats, black armor, dark green clothing

1st Regiment: "Araggus' Own", Tempestus Scions

2nd Regiment: Mechanized Infantry Regiment

3rd Regiment: Mechanized Infantry Regiment

4th Regiment: Armored Regiment

5th Regiment: Artillery Regiment

6th Regiment: Infantry and Reserve Regiment

7th Regiment: Infantry and Reserve Regiment

8th Regiment: Heavy Armor Regiment

Eventually, I want them to become renowned for fighting Tyranids so over time the regiments might get some nifty sobriquets to match their victories. If I ever do build a real force and paint them up, I'll probably do a combined force with elements of the 1st, 2nd, 4th and 5th Regiments. Maybe some famous companies that stand above the others for distinguished service and victories. :)

-----

That's about it, what do you guys think?

[WarriorFish]

I think it's a good core to their backstory, you can embellish it with more details such as the attitudes and dress etc of the Guard forces and differences there may be between the regiments :)