Primarchs in the Colosseum

[b1soul]

Just finished watching Spartacus Gods of the Arena and I thought to myself "What if instead of teams of gladiators battling before Roman nobility, teams of primarchs battle before the Emperor?" 

 

At this point, you can probably tell the direction in which this thread is heading. If you don't like threads where members speculate about what chances primarch X has against primarch Y, this thread isn't for you. 

 

I've decided to leave out Magnus and Alpharius/Omegon for balancing issues. Here are the teams I've arranged:

 

 Team 1

Horus (Team Leader)

The Lion

Guilliman

Dorn

 

Team Analysis:

Horus, the Lucifer Morningstar of the Primarchs, the best and the brightest. A brilliant commander, charismatic leader of men, and fearsome warrior. The Lion seems to be all that Horus is minus the charisma. Instead of being charismatic, he is mistrusting and aloof. The Lion is also more of a refined Calibanite swordsman than an aggressive Cthonian brawler. His mastery of the blade is phenomenal indeed, allowing him to slit the Night Haunter's throat after inflicting numerous cuts upon his mad brother. Only Fulgrim and the Khan rival him as master swordsmen. Of the three, the Lion perhaps strikes the finest balance between technique and speed.

 

Guilliman is the perhaps the Imperium's finest administrator. He is not to underestimated in battle however, for he once held off both Angron and Lorgar Transfigured at once before finally falling to the Red Angel's fury. Dorn is the Emperor's Praetorian and if his personal style of combat is anything like his legion's style of warfare, Dorn is the master of defence.

 

Team 2

Russ (Team Leader)

Angron

Curze

Lorgar

 

Team Analysis:

Here was have the Emperor's executioners. Russ fancies himself as such but Angron and Curze scoff at the idea. They would make just as fine executioners...but why be satisfied with executing the Emperor's designated targets when slaughter and terror are so much more enjoyable. This team has two highly aggressive close combat monsters in Russ and Angron. Relative to the aforementioned pair, the third man trades a bit of bruising power for stealth, making him perhaps even more dangerous in certain situations.

 

Why Lorgar? This team has an abundance of aggression and murderous intent. Lorgar is here to calm his brothers' fiery psyches with his mellifluous sermons. In all seriousness, Lorgar is here to balance his brothers' awesomeness with his suckitude.

 

 

Team 3

Sanguinius (Team Leader)

The Khan

Fulgrim

Corax

 

Team Analysis:

If Horus is Lucifer, then Sanguinius is the Archangel Michael. Beneath his angelic demeanour simmers a rage that may rival even that of Angron. The Ravenlord has opined that in close combat, perhaps only Horus and Angron are his rivals. Sanguinius also enjoys the ability of flight...which is a considerable advantage in a massive open arena.

 

Khaaaannnnn!!!!!! The Khan is one of the three blademasters of the primarchs. Compared to Fulgrim and the Lion, the Khan is the fastest but perhaps also the wildest. Fulgrim on the other hand is possessed of the finest technique. This is perhaps a natural product of the Phoenician's obsession with perfection. As a result, Fulgrim likely sacrifices raw speed for technical perfection.

 

Corax, the Yang to Curze's Yang. Perhaps not as physically strong as the dark, twisted reflection calling itself Lord of the VIIIth, the Ravenlord is the consummate master of stealth. He is more disciplined than the semi-deranged Night Haunter, and his ability to render himself invisible means he is perhaps the ultimate assassin

 

Team 4

Perturabo (Team Leader)

Mortarion

Vulkan

Ferrus Manus

 

This is a very tanky team. The implacable Mortarion has proven himself more than capable of holding his own against the swift Khan. Perturabo is a douche who likes to smash people dead with his hammer. Vulkan is massively strong, even for a primarch, and he revives from death, a huge boon to his team. However, the more damage he sustains, the longer he takes to respawn. Ferrus is another really strong, tanky primarch. It's debatable whether Fulgrim would've beaten him had Fulgrim not been wielding the Anathame. Weakest team? I wouldn't say so

 

Which teams defeat which teams?

[UltraCaptain]

Dont know which team beat which, but i think you group them much by similar traits. Team 1 is horrible on a bonding level, even if they are all brilliant primarchs - they are all leaders, guilliman could follow and adapt to horus, but the lion and dorn would be more prone to their own tactica and not listen to horus.

 

The best team imo is

Guilliman - Team Leader

Leman Rus

Sanguinius

Ferrus Manus

 

Russ and Sang neither want to be leader, and they fight and listen very well. Ferrus might have trouble listening, and disrespect weaker beings, and he might be too fixed, but he nontheless fights well and gets the job done.

Guilliman might not be a strong fighter, but he is able to connect all the different strengths of his team to its maximum and apply it to his opponents weaknesses. In Contrast, a type like Horus would rather go for HIS own preffered strategy, a strategy that is well drilled and good due to his own skills, than being flexible and adaptive quickly to his opponent.

[Legatus]

Guilliman might not be a strong fighter

 

 

Umh, he and Russ are the only two Primarchs with a dedicated martial upbringing in that team. Just saying.

[simison]

Team 3 beats all....

 

Alright, done being a fanboy. In all seriousness, I think luck would be the prevailing factor that determines who beats who. From the sounds of it, you're leaning closer to the fluff interpretation of the primarchs as opposed to the rules we currently have, and they're still evenly matched to a degree. Except Vulkan because even if you delayed his regeneration, that's a huge advantage to have over the other teams. Instead of a team of 4, you have a team of infinity because the best you could hope to do is throw Vulkan out of the ring and have that count as a 'permanent' defeat. Otherwise, he's just going to keep getting back up. 

[b1soul]

Dont know which team beat which, but i think you group them much by similar traits. Team 1 is horrible on a bonding level, even if they are all brilliant primarchs

 

They set aside differences and try their best to work together for the purpose of this thread...otherwise the team with Angron and Curze would not be a team

[Wade Garrett]

 

Guilliman might not be a strong fighter

 

Umh, he and Russ are the only two Primarchs with a dedicated martial upbringing in that team. Just saying.

Because tribal/clan cultures like Medusa and Baal can't have martial traditions.

 

The Apache, Sioux, Zulu, Bedouin, etc apparently don't count.

[depthcharge12]

I feel like this should be like the game Smite. Primarch characters would be awesome, and the little bowmen could be replaced with legionaries with bolt guns.

[Slips]

Playing as Primarchs in a Smite setting could be cool. Treating Astartes as Worthless Creeps...not so much, imo :P

 

Dorns ultimate being a Flyby of Aetos Dios /swoon

[b1soul]

 

Because tribal/clan cultures like Medusa and Baal can't have martial traditions.

 

The Apache, Sioux, Zulu, Bedouin, etc apparently don't count.

 

 

Don't forget SE Asian headhunters

Mongols

Celts

Germanic tribes

[Iron Hands Fanatic]

For Team 4, I'd swap out the team leader Perturabo for Ferrus instead (this legit isn't fanboying, its based on fluff).

 

Ferrus was the 3rd discovered Primarch, so he's the most veteran out of the team, and Massacre describes him repeatedly leading other Primarchs & their Legions, as well as being a contender for the title of Warmaster. I mean, before the XX^th, IV^th, XVII^th & VIII^th turned their coats, the plan was for Ferrus to comman seven Legions at Isstvan V. Plus, despite being pretty callous, he did have strong friends amongst the other Primarchs - within the team Vulkan is obvious there. Out of the 4, he's the most obvious leader.

 

Plus, Perturabo is specifically noted as 'does not work well with others' - he's got few friends & seems too introverted to make a good leader.

[Legatus]

 

 

Guilliman might not be a strong fighter

Umh, he and Russ are the only two Primarchs with a dedicated martial upbringing in that team. Just saying.

Because tribal/clan cultures like Medusa and Baal can't have martial traditions.

 

The Apache, Sioux, Zulu, Bedouin, etc apparently don't count.

 

 

If the mad max-esque nomadic tribes of Baal, roaming the nuclear wasteland in ramshackle vehicles, scavenging the ruins of fallen civilisations to survive, were meant to have some kind of sophisticated martial culture with a strong focus on combat techniques, then all the Blood Angels Codices to date failed to point that out.

 

The culture of the Medusan Clans is not described in detail, but then Ferrus Manus was not raised by any of the Clans. He first made contact with the Clans when he was already a grown man.

[b1soul]

For Team 4, I'd swap out the team leader Perturabo for Ferrus instead (this legit isn't fanboying, its based on fluff).

 

Ferrus was the 3rd discovered Primarch, so he's the most veteran out of the team, and Massacre describes him repeatedly leading other Primarchs & their Legions, as well as being a contender for the title of Warmaster. I mean, before the XX^th, IV^th, XVII^th & VIII^th turned their coats, the plan was for Ferrus to comman seven Legions at Isstvan V. Plus, despite being pretty callous, he did have strong friends amongst the other Primarchs - within the team Vulkan is obvious there. Out of the 4, he's the most obvious leader.

 

Plus, Perturabo is specifically noted as 'does not work well with others' - he's got few friends & seems too introverted to make a good leader.

Suggestion accepted

[Wade Garrett]

Might I ask exactly how you're defining "martial culture"?

 

Because me, I'd say a culture that exists in a nigh constant state of warfare with its neighbors, where every member is expected to be ready and able to use weapons because of said intercine warfare, that's a martial culture.

 

Not to mention that the only difference between the tribes of Baal as you describe them and those of Fenris is that the Fenrisians wander around in boats instead of dune buggies.

[b1soul]

Might I ask exactly how you're defining "martial culture"?

Because me, I'd say a culture that exists in a nigh constant state of warfare with its neighbors, where every member is expected to be ready and able to use weapons because of said intercine warfare, that's a martial culture.

Not to mention that the only difference between the tribes of Baal as you describe them and those of Fenris is that the Fenrisians wander around in boats instead of dune buggies.

Baal sounds frakkin' awesome

[Legatus]

Might I ask exactly how you're defining "martial culture"?

 

 

Well, any society where martial techniques have a certain cultural value, I guess.

 

 

 

Not to mention that the only difference between the tribes of Baal as you describe them and those of Fenris is that the Fenrisians wander around in boats instead of dune buggies.

 

The (likely) existence of modern weaponry alone suggests that the tribes of Baal probably do not have a tradition of passing down (they lost written historical documentation) elaborate combat techniques. And since they are nomadic scavengers, they probably do not even forge their own close combat weapons.

 

Fenrisians are trained in combat because that is the only means of fighting, they are trained in the use of weapony created by their tribe, and if they excel in combat they might become chieftain or are chosen by their gods.

 

The way the Baal tribes are described, I picture them being attacked by raiding mutants and them "circling their wagons" and pick up their rusty rifles or whichever sharp or blunt instrument they managed to dig up among the ruins. Think Mad Max or Postman, or other similar post apocalyptic scenarios. They were not known for rich warrior traditions. Sure they have to fight for survival, but it is a more pragmatic approach to fighting, with less ceremony or cultural appreciation of technique.

 

Fenris on the other hand is described as a society with a dedicated "viking" warrior culture through and through.

[Castiel]

 

The (likely) existence of modern weaponry alone suggests that the tribes of Baal probably do not have a tradition of passing down (they lost written historical documentation) elaborate combat techniques. And since they are nomadic scavengers, they probably do not even forge their own close combat weapons.

 

Fenrisians are trained in combat because that is the only means of fighting, they are trained in the use of weapony created by their tribe, and if they excel in combat they might become chieftain or are chosen by their gods.

 

The way the Baal tribes are described, I picture them being attacked by raiding mutants and them "circling their wagons" and pick up their rusty rifles or whichever sharp or blunt instrument they managed to dig up among the ruins. Think Mad Max or Postman, or other similar post apocalyptic scenarios. They were not known for rich warrior traditions. Sure they have to fight for survival, but it is a more pragmatic approach to fighting, with less ceremony or cultural appreciation of technique.

 

Fenris on the other hand is described as a society with a dedicated "viking" warrior culture through and through.

 

I would still describe it as a martial culture. Fighting techniques and methods would still be passed down through the tribes as well as weapons and how to use them from father to son. Just because they are fighting for survival doesn't mean that they are any less skilled than someone trained in a weapons hall in how to look pretty whilst killing. In fact I'd argue that the tribes of Baal have more of a "martial tradition" than those of Macragge, because their every day is a fight for survival, whereas the denizens of the 500 Worlds, by and large, don't.

[Legatus]

I would still describe it as a martial culture. Fighting techniques and methods would still be passed down through the tribes as well as weapons and how to use them from father to son. Just because they are fighting for survival doesn't mean that they are any less skilled than someone trained in a weapons hall in how to look pretty whilst killing. In fact I'd argue that the tribes of Baal have more of a "martial tradition" than those of Macragge, because their every day is a fight for survival, whereas the denizens of the 500 Worlds, by and large, don't.

 

 

Really? You would say that a band of survivors from a Mad Max setting has a more "martial tradition" than Space Sparta? Where all children are sent to rigorous military training academies from age six to fourteen to undergo "the toughest training imaginable" (which not all survive), whose disciplined way of life and military might is an inspiration for surrounding systems, whose warriors are respected throughout the galaxy, and which maintains hundreds of combat ready regiments to be provided for the Imperial Guard even though as a Space Marine homeworld they would not be required to?

[Castiel]

 

I would still describe it as a martial culture. Fighting techniques and methods would still be passed down through the tribes as well as weapons and how to use them from father to son. Just because they are fighting for survival doesn't mean that they are any less skilled than someone trained in a weapons hall in how to look pretty whilst killing. In fact I'd argue that the tribes of Baal have more of a "martial tradition" than those of Macragge, because their every day is a fight for survival, whereas the denizens of the 500 Worlds, by and large, don't.

 

 

Really? You would say that a band of survivors from a Mad Max setting has a more "martial tradition" than Space Sparta? Where all children are sent to rigorous military training academies from age six to fourteen to undergo "the toughest training imaginable" (which not all survive), whose disciplined way of life and military might is an inspiration for surrounding systems, whose warriors are respected throughout the galaxy, and which maintains hundreds of combat ready regiments to be provided for the Imperial Guard even though as a Space Marine homeworld they would not be required to?

 

So learning to fight in a school is better education than fighting to survive every day of your life? On Baal you're either good or dead. Just because they don't have military colleges doesn't make them worse a fighting. I would suggest if every time you fight either you or the enemy wind up dead Baal might even breed better fighters because they don't often have  the luxury of fighting to assent, they win or they die by their actions.

[b1soul]

So learning to fight in a school is better education than fighting to survive every day of your life? On Baal you're either good or dead. Just because they don't have military colleges doesn't make them worse a fighting. I would suggest if every time you fight either you or the enemy wind up dead Baal might even breed better fighters because they don't often have  the luxury of fighting to assent, they win or they die by their actions.

 

 

Both forms of "education" have their merits.

 

On Baal, chances of survival probably depend largely on luck. Humans are probably more preoccuptied with surviving the environmental dangers of the rad wastes than with fighting other humans. When humans do fight each other, they probably do so viciously but without much technique. 

 

On Macragge, the system is designed to hone martial skill and to drill technique and muscle memory. It's likely designed so that those who survive are the best soliders, not the best envionrmental survivalists, scavengers or raiders. However, Baal natives are likely more hardened mentally. They don't rely on civilisation, law, and order. They are products of "the jungle", like other Deathworlders and Cthonians (not sure if Cthonia is considered a Deathworld but it certainly reads like a hellhole)

 

Not sure if this is accurate, but I believe Baal natives are mainly preoccuped with surviving environmental dangers whereas Cthonians are thoroughly immersed in tribal warfare. The outcome of a fight between Macragge's finest and Cthonia's finest (either human vs. human or Astartes vs. Astartes) would be a toss-up IMO. The warrior has the advantage 1 on 1, but the soldier has the advantage on the battlefield.

[Legatus]

So learning to fight in a school is better education than fighting to survive every day of your life? On Baal you're either good or dead. Just because they don't have military colleges doesn't make them worse a fighting. I would suggest if every time you fight either you or the enemy wind up dead Baal might even breed better fighters because they don't often have  the luxury of fighting to assent, they win or they die by their actions.

 

 

You seem to see Macragge as some kind of peaceful leisure paradise. That is understandable, seeing how most of the lore that briefly describes it simply points out how well it is administrated. It is, however, grossly inaccurate.

 

"Life on Macragge was harsh and only the strongest survived to adulthood. The state determined whether children, both male and female, were strong when they were born and weakling infants were left on the mountains to perish.

 

To be a citizen of Macragge was to live a life of discipline, self-denial and simplicity. The people viewed themeslves as the true inheritors of Humanity's best traditions, shunning luxuries and occasion for leisure. Reliance on technological advancement was seen as bringing discord, weakness and a decline in moral values. This exercised a profound pull on the surrounding systems which admired the discipline and order of Macragge. To maintain this way of life, children of both sexes were sent to military and athletic academies at the age of six where they were taught to fight, build their stamina, maintain discipline, endure extremes of pain and survive in the wild. Life for students was brutal, and only the very best survived. At fourteen, after eight years of the toughest training imaginable, those students became soldiers.

 

This punishing regime ensured that the military might of Macragge was second to none, and many of the surrounding systems adopted the same method of training. While the rest of the galaxy threatened to plunge back into the anarchy of the Age of Strife, Macragge and her neighbours prospered, disciplined armies of highly trained warriors hurling back alien invaders, pirates and human renegades time and time again. A soldier served until he or she reached the age of thirty, when they were allowed to leave the military and start a family of their own."

- Index Astartes Ultramarines*

 

 

"The harsh life on Macragge breeds hardy people with strong martial values and hard-working natures. Discipline, self-reliance and honor are seen as cardinal virtues and the children of Ultramar are taught these values from the earliest age. These are reinforced in the training academies and, by the time the students graduate, they are amongst the most disciplined humans in the galaxy. The people of Ultramar are taught to respect the might of the Imperium and that to strive in its name is the highest form of service a person can render to the Emperor. As such, the workers and warriors of Ultramar are respected throughout the galaxy and are a byword for strength, courage and honor."

- Index Astartes Ultramarines**

 

 

You see, I wasn't kidding when I refered to it as "Space Sparta".

 

* and **: The initial paragraphs describe a pre-Guilliman Macragge, and the environment he himself was raised in. After his reforms he brought stability and prosperity, as well as justice to the lower classes, but he did not change the core values of the people of Macragge. The later paragraph describes Macragge in teh 41st millennium, and still mentions those training academies and the highly respected military of Macragge.

[Castiel]

*snip*

 

That's because compared to life on Baal it would have been. The people of Macragge are raised on a world where food and resources were plentiful, and had the luxury of building these schools and academies of war where soldiers could be trained to high standards in relative safety.

 

Life on Baal Secundus was a daily struggle to survive blistering amounts of radiation to scavenge for enough things to keep ourself alive while fending off savage attacks by mutants or even other humans. The people raised on Baal would have needed to be every bit as good with weapons as anyone raised on Macragge, because their very day to day existence would have depended on it.

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that Macragge wasn't a martial society producing warriors of the highest calibre, but I'm trying to say that so was Baal. The methods of training and reasons behind it may have been different, but both are still martial societies. Guilliman may have united the 500 worlds and quashed the rebellion against his late father, but similarly Sanguinius united the tribes of Baal Secundus into a unified force and removed the mutants from the moon, which would have required military training and martial order. You are looking at a Rome/Sparta style army compared to an almost Celtic styled one. The UM and Macragge rely on the unity and order of their force to beat what may be superior individual warriors through co-ordinated efforts, each man a force multiplier to the one next to him, whereas the BA and Baal would be more like a group of individual warriors working as a whole, they may not be able to rely on the man next to them as much, but the ferocity and power of their charge is enough to break their foe. They are both different methods of fighting with their own strengths and weaknesses that are inspired by the worlds that the chapters originate from and the conditions and foes that they face. But to say that one is a martial background and one isn't is, IMO, wrong.

[b1soul]

I love how the Ultramarines are boyscout through and through. Honour, nobility, strength, courage, loyalty 

[Iron Father Ferrum]

I love how the Ultramarines are boyscout through and through. Honour, nobility, strength, courage, loyalty

The proper terms and order are trustworthy, loyal, helpful, friendly, courteous, kind, obedient, cheerful, thrifty, brave, clean, and reverent. Of those, some don't apply to the Ultramarines.

In other news, I personally would re-jig the teams so that they represent those who fluffily would actually fight together. Guilliman and his Dauntless Few (minus one to meet your number requirements) for example would be a good concept for a team; sticking all the "tank" Primarchs on one team though is just a recipe for disaster for everyone else because you do you expect anyone short of the Big E Himself to beat the Four Absolute Toughest Dudes Ever?

[Raktra]

I dunno, if it's Lorgar after his Chaos care package he could telekinetically (and hilariously) ping them through the air.

[Wade Garrett]

In Legatus's defense, the verdict of history is pretty soundly in favor of the technical/formalized method of war over the tribal father to son model.

 

The Celts never invaded Italy and built a wall halfway across it, after all.

 

As far as the human inhabitants of Maccrage against a comparable force of Baalites...a single battle could go either way, but over the course of a long campaign I'd bet on the "civilized" folks. Unless said campaign is actually in the rad-wastes, in which case the Baalites probably roll over them.