New Dark Eldar

[calvin the wraithlord]

Has anyone played the new DE yet? i fought them with my (im ashamed to say it) Minotaurs army the other day and there firepower was utterly brutal, i was thinking, are they going to be another army we GK players literally cant play against (others being tau, eldar) as most peoples lists these days are centered around NDKs which will, i can guarantee, die like flies to basic DE poison weapons(2+ only goes so far under relentless amounts of fire), i personally only run one because i try to avoid power listing and i couldn't see it lasting long, plus with our low model count and there withering firepower i just cant see much hope for us, bearing in mind there old dex was still pretty brutal against us, Thoughts?

[raverrn]

Dark Eldar vs Grey Knights is one of my absolute favorite matchups. It's a brutal hellslog either way - they've got poison out the ass, loads and loads of AP2 and 3 and a million billion transports to hide in. We have Instant Death on every unit, the firepower to crack AV10 left and right, and Incinerators and CLEANSING GODDAMN FLAME. 

[Kilofix]

Setting DE Barges on fire is quite entertaining. I think its just that some folks have forgotten that GKs have template stuff since the last PsyCannon and NDK edition.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Take a Raven, combat squad a full Purifer unit inside. Take a Comms Array on an Aegis Line. Spam DK's to shunt heavy psycannon into their lines Turn 1, and take out the Ravagers. 

 

Turn 2, bring on the Raven, dump the Purifiers out, double cast 'Cleansing Flame' right in the middle of their swam of Raiders. Watch the DE player rage-quit when he has to resolve the effects against every Raider in range. 

 

DE have no Interceptor, so its pretty easy to do this to them. 

[calvin the wraithlord]

Purifer in a raven is exactly what i was thinking, DKs though, i cant see them doing as much damage as usual, i mean dont get me wrong they will deal out some hurt but they'll die alot faster than usual, that is if they even get to go, say DE has first turn? theres a good chance he will kill your DKs, raiders with splinter racks put up an ungodly amount of twin linked shots plus like Raverrn said, they have poison AP2/3 out the ass, i could actually see us getting tabled before we get out Ravens in, remember they are fast bastards, i think we'd have to really luck out or hit them so hard so fast, which we are defiantly able to do, even then, model count, they are going to win when it comes to attrition, and say your purifiers do get in, they will kill what ever they hit then get gunned down in the next turn

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Purifer in a raven is exactly what i was thinking, DKs though, i cant see them doing as much damage as usual, i mean dont get me wrong they will deal out some hurt but they'll die alot faster than usual, that is if they even get to go, say DE has first turn? theres a good chance he will kill your DKs, raiders with splinter racks put up an ungodly amount of twin linked shots plus like Raverrn said, they have poison AP2/3 out the ass, i could actually see us getting tabled before we get out Ravens in, remember they are fast bastards, i think we'd have to really luck out or hit them so hard so fast, which we are defiantly able to do, even then, model count, they are going to win when it comes to attrition, and say your purifiers do get in, they will kill what ever they hit then get gunned down in the next turn

 

I'd contemplate Reserving like a coward if they get first turn. Deny them a Shooting phase and watch them rage when you Deepstrike Turn 1 (remember you're taking Nemesis Strikeforces yes?). 

 

Also, I'd clarify that whilst DE have poison and lance spam, they do not have both on the same weapons, or even the same units. Typically, their vehicles mounted the lance spam (especially Ravagers), the infantry pack the poison. Poison is of zero interest to DK's, its like getting shot with S6, it still doesn't get through their 2+ armour without you failing saves abnormally. Terminators also could care less about poison, its like getting shot with S4 bolters, again you get your absurdly high armour save. AP2 is annoying but if you alpha strike properly and take out the Ravagers first (just keep pumping psycannon into them till they drop), his AP2 output drops drastically. Other priority targets should be Blasterborn in a Venom, and Incubi (who will slice up your Termies before they can swing). 

 

DE have no Deepstrike defence beyond castling or taking Fortifications (which they almost never do, because it doesn't suit their army). They also have zero defence against shunting (like most lists). 

[Gentlemanloser]

/seconded all the above.

 

DE were a bad matchup versus us with thier old codex, and thier new one hasn't made them any stronger.

 

Then again, I fail 2+ Armour saves abysmally.  I routinely lose my NDKs to Bolt Pistols. /sigh

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Also, can I re-iterate how much psycannon and incinerator royally crush them? S6+ in multiple shot Rending or Template form is nightmare fuel for 80% of their stuff, the rest being Haemo garbage you will curb-stomp in melee with 'Hammerhand' and 'Force' you don't even need hammers mostly, except for Talos...(shakes fist grumpily) stupid Talos...

 

Seriously, new DK is absolute insane. You're shrugging off lance fire on a 4+ thanks to 'Sanctuary', and you basically remove a squad or tank everytime you fire that sweet new heavy psycannon. Add heavy incinerators and watch them burn their army in effigy after the match ;) 

[Gentlemanloser]

Add to that the Deldar have no Psykers of thier own, so they shouldn't be Denying any of your Sanctuary / Hammerhand rolls.

 

Psycannons (And Incinerators) ignoring FnP (becuase they cause ID) makes Deldar cry as well.

 

On anything bar Incubi, they get no Armour Save, nor FnP save to our Psycannons/Incinerators.  The same weapons also melt thier paper tanks like a hot knife.

[calvin the wraithlord]

when you put it like that.....going to see if my DE mate will give me a game on saturday before we continue with our campaign, got me all fired up now !

[Brom MKIV]

That was a great intermission but now back to reality.

Its true psycans are probably better than usual here and incins are excellent in this match, NSF and shunts too. However, any experienced DE player worth a damn will be running extreme MSU with upwards of 12 units easily plus embarked units (considering my own lists here) possibly more, and likely eldar allies. This is where it gets rough. Those embarked troops are 40 pts. Their ride is 55-65.

Remember too that things have changed. A lot depends on list composition and player skill. DE will attack you on two fronts since their MSU approach allows them to play the mission while attacking your units.

Venoms and raiders can now be taken empty with 6 FA slots available to even a single RSR detachment and stealth turn 1 meaning only cleansing flame and incinerators aren't facing 2+ and 3+ cover saves (3+ on skimmers). Those FA will probably include multiple units of scourges which now pack 4 hvy weapons out of 5.. blasters, heat lances or haywire.

Eldar are eldar.

Anyway you get the idea.

I honestly haven't played this match from the GK side of the table yet. But if I knew I was going to I would not be looking to flyers or mech unless I went all-in on the strategy. The damage output of flyers is not high enough to warrant the pts kept off the table and this army is too fast to get much time in the cross hairs. Mech would have to be light armour spam or its not efficient enough.

I would obviously want NDKs, and then lots and lots of bodies with either DS or shunt and always combat squaded. If he refuses flank and boosts to the other side you need to have units that can keep up since he out ranges you and you need to be able to split or focus fire as much as possible.

Point is you will never out MSU them but you can bring the disparity down some. The more elite you go the harder it gets. I would also want cleansing flame but preferably on libbys or something tricksy like purifiers inside an escape hatch bunker since you'll likely want reserve manip anyway. Concentration of force is a principle both sides rely heavily on. If you can impose your will and force him to react you can take it.

Lastly my experience with DE is that games usually feel very lopsided from the beginning (DE favor) but due to their fragile nature the games are very swingy if even slight mistakes are made. Keep this in mind when your in the heat of battle.

[calvin the wraithlord]

aye no doubt DE are a total glass cannon, atleast they are if you ignore cover!! remember there raiders can jink on 3+ which is a bitch, and the men inside still fire at normal BS, like you said any player worth his own salt will be able to recover from our alpha strike and to put it nicely, decimate us, like you said they are eldar so once they down the NDKs they can just stay outa incinerator range, jink the psys and run and gun, although i do love the idea of the alpha strike, the amount of carnage we would inflict on the first turn would be bloody epic

[Gentlemanloser]

So basically Brom, bring NDKs with PT and HI and watch the Deldar melt in thier MSU planes. ;)

[calvin the wraithlord]

aye enjoy the warm of there burning transports as the remaining DE turn your Purifiers into pink mush

[Gentlemanloser]

Puri who?

 

GKT and NDK all the way. ;)

 

With some MSU Interceptors with Incierators to Shunt alongside the NDKs for more roastanating.

 

Get CF on your Libby HQ(s).

[Brom MKIV]

Puri who?

GKT and NDK all the way.

With some MSU Interceptors with Incierators to Shunt alongside the NDKs for more roastanating.

Get CF on your Libby HQ(s).

Ya this. I would personally avoid flyers and purifiers and spam things with PTs. This is also one of the rare matches where rifleman dreads might be worth considering as an alternative. Their range and twin linking are gold even considering their higher than average cost plus sitting at av12 puts them right at the peak of lance weaponry's effectiveness. A pair of these would make for a good firebase for this match specifically.

[calvin the wraithlord]

Hmm i can see your point. i do think that cleansing flame would be completely deadly though, it would also give us another chance to hit them hard as hell, say a Beta strike? :P as i think the only way we'd stand a good chance would be to give them as few opportunities to fire there guns as possible

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Its true psycans are probably better than usual here and incins are excellent in this match, NSF and shunts too. However, any experienced DE player worth a damn will be running extreme MSU with upwards of 12 units easily plus embarked units (considering my own lists here) possibly more, and likely eldar allies. This is where it gets rough. Those embarked troops are 40 pts. Their ride is 55-65.

 

The only units that matter in a DE list to DK's are Ravagers and Blasterborn. Also, the prices you mentioned are off, as the embarked Warrior units (Wyches are now total garbage) are running blaster+dark lance almost always. Raiders lost their 5+ invulnerable upgrade. 

Remember too that things have changed. A lot depends on list composition and player skill. DE will attack you on two fronts since their MSU approach allows them to play the mission while attacking your units.

 

Nothing has changed about the matchup. They're a bunch of T3 dudes in paper mache AV10 skimmers. They can't play the mission at all, they don't have the staying power to take and hold objectives. They have to punch you in the mouth Turn 1 so hard you never recover, or you'll just grind them down. That's why lance spam is still the premier build for DE. 

Venoms and raiders can now be taken empty with 6 FA slots available to even a single RSR detachment and stealth turn 1 meaning only cleansing flame and incinerators aren't facing 2+ and 3+ cover saves (3+ on skimmers). Those FA will probably include multiple units of scourges which now pack 4 hvy weapons out of 5.. blasters, heat lances or haywire.

Eldar are eldar. 

 

Massed fire will still break their cover saves. They're not AV12 remember, even a single psycannon or incinerator hit can be enough to total them (an immobilize result is death, a weapon destroyed makes Raiders useless and Ravagers don't like their firepower being cut by a third). Even stunned/shaken making them Snap Shot (including passengers) is incredibly annoying. 

 

Scourges are more expensive than Blasterborn and can't fit in a Venom due to their Jump Infantry status. They're good for Deepstriking and spamming haywire shots into high AV problems like Knight-Titans (you force the ion shield to face the lance spam, then land on their flank and spam their HP away). Seeing as we have no vehicles, and Blasterborn are bringing the AP2 pain cheaper, I would be happier to see them. If they're on foot DK's and Interceptors can easily catch and slaughter them. 

nyway you get the idea.

I honestly haven't played this match from the GK side of the table yet. But if I knew I was going to I would not be looking to flyers or mech unless I went all-in on the strategy. The damage output of flyers is not high enough to warrant the pts kept off the table and this army is too fast to get much time in the cross hairs. Mech would have to be light armour spam or its not efficient enough.

 

DE annihilate mech lists, there is literally no point to doing that, especially not with our expensive infantry who mostly Deepstrike. 

The reason a Raven is good is A: DE have zero Skyfire outside of their own AV10 paper planes and B: DE have no Interceptor either. Thus, your Raven will come on without getting shot down, and you can land those Purifiers accurately into a cluster of his skimmers (even if DE are spread out they have too many hulls to avoid multiples being caught in the 9" AOE). Also, by spreading out to avoid 'Cleansing Flame', they're making it easier for the DK's to shunt behind their skimmer wall and blow them up. I wouldn't do the Raven+Purifier combo below say 2k, I think it's too many points off-table, but it is hilarious to pull off. 

Lastly my experience with DE is that games usually feel very lopsided from the beginning (DE favor) but due to their fragile nature the games are very swingy if even slight mistakes are made. Keep this in mind when your in the heat of battle. 

 

It's extremely one-way every time. Either they alpha-strike perfectly and you never recover in time, or you survive their attempt and grind your way through their army. As I mentioned earlier, if you take out the real problem units early (Ravagers and Blasterborn being the nastiest examples), his damage output is reduced to the point where his terrible T3 infantry can't come back. 

[Brom MKIV]

RD:

My points aren't off DE/Eldar are my primary army unit recently when I switched gears for awhile. Lances dont work in warriors due to hvy unless you just want a blob but theres better choices.

Blaster warriors may have their place but its hardly the standard. I quit using blasters pretty far back. It makes a 36" unit want to close within 18" for a single shot. Keep em anti infantry and theres more pts for dedicated AT elsewhere.

 

Blasterborn otoh have been poor for a long time for the same reason blaster warriors are more suicidal then non. This is especially true if you run eldar allies.

 

The match has changed because the beast star is gone and replaced by 6-12 FA slots including empty gunboats and 16 pt T4 FNP bikes with rending HoW and hit and run among other things like no scatter DS ability added to eldar units.

 

Dark eldar CAN play the mission extremely well especially maelstrom and nova style missions. But your right they can't camp. If so they're doing it wrong. It is difficult for GK to compete in those scenarios with so many 48-51 pt units that move 48". Thus they are reduced to being the aggressor. In EW war missions bikes arrive late then boost we all know the drill.

 

I agree massed fire can break cover saves. My point is GKs have far less units to match against MSU elves. How many S7 ap4 shots does it take to down a 3+ jinking skimmer? A lot.. roughly 7 shots per hull point on av10 more on ravagers. Also stunned/shaken embarked units can fire at full capacity with a Ld check btw they dont just snap shoot.

 

Blasterborn arent cheaper then scourges because they need to sacrifice their venom to deliver their darklight making it 170 ish vs 120 -140 depending on loadout.

 

Fair enough on the purifier/raven thing. I wouldn't trust it just from my own experience against those units but there's too many factors to simply say it doesn't work. A lone flyer IME though is pretty meh against a fast jinking army.

 

And there we have it folks. Agree to disagree. I suspect what you face aint the same as what I face, but Id be curious to see the list the OP is up against.

[Brom MKIV]

OP- sorry for the derail. Anyway possibly the nastiest thing you could bring is drop pod purifiers.

[jeffersonian000]

The best thing to use against a 3+ Jinking (Open Top) skimmer is a S6 Flamer with Soulbaze. I've found the latest version of DE to be Popcorn waiting to be popped by my Intercepters and DreadKnights. Unlike most people, I advocate for hitting as many DE units as possible turn one rather than the usual focus down one enemy unit at a time. With GKs, a weaken DE unit this turn is a dead DE unit next turn, and the longer a DE unit goes without taking hits, the more hits I have to absorb on my low model count army. The best thing my DE opponent can do to make my job easier is to reserve and arrive piecemeal, although starting all in is second best because It gives me many many ducks to shoot with Psycannon and Blessed Prometheum.

 

SJ

[Gentlemanloser]

 

 

OP- sorry for the derail. Anyway possibly the nastiest thing you could bring is drop pod purifiers.          

 

Oh totally.  If you're playing Unbound or have SW allies, Purifiers in Drop Pods.

 

With an attached Libby with CF / Crowe.

 

If Unbound/SW are out, then GKT/NDK/Interceptors.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Lances dont work in warriors due to hvy unless you just want a blob but theres better choices.

 

Not really. The splinter cannon has the awful new Salvo rules, and the shredder is meh. Besides, you don't need to move the Raider to Jink (le balanced skimmer rules). Turn 1 you'd be staying still to fire all your lances, only advancing if need be (36" range and aggressive deployment mean you don't need to move much unless you have to). 

Blaster warriors may have their place but its hardly the standard. I quit using blasters pretty far back. It makes a 36" unit want to close within 18" for a single shot. Keep em anti infantry and theres more pts for dedicated AT elsewhere.

 

Again, you only need to use the blaster if you're on the move, otherwise just camp with that lance. It's like melta, you use it later on when needed. They're cheap enough that you don't care you miss out on early blaster shots, lance is better at that point of the game. 

Blasterborn otoh have been poor for a long time for the same reason blaster warriors are more suicidal then non. This is especially true if you run eldar allies. 

 

So? Blasterborn are your premier 'roll up and gat that fool' unit. They vapourise Marines and Terminators, blow big holes in MC's for your other lances to finish off. Fire Dragons are equally suicidal and still see tourney play. You probably don't take as many as before (due to Elites), maybe run more Reavers with heat lance or something. But its not like Scourges are amazingly better at AP2 spam. Both die like flies to any kind of enemy retaliation, but one is cheaper and faster. 

The match has changed because the beast star is gone and replaced by 6-12 FA slots including empty gunboats and 16 pt T4 FNP bikes with rending HoW and hit and run among other things like no scatter DS ability added to eldar units. 

 

Beast-Star was always jank as hell and lost to other 5th and 6th edition Deathstars. It was more for punishing noobs who wrote lists that couldn't deal with it. Reavers are pretty amusing but I wouldn't be mindlessly spamming them over other core choices. Reavers in melee are dead meat to any of our units, even Strikes. Rending HoW is hilarious but it will fail to proc a fair bit. It doesn't hold a candle to their old 'turbo over enemy lines, cut their faces up for 2D6 auto-hits'. 

Dark eldar CAN play the mission extremely well especially maelstrom and nova style missions. But your right they can't camp. If so they're doing it wrong. It is difficult for GK to compete in those scenarios with so many 48-51 pt units that move 48". Thus they are reduced to being the aggressor. In EW war missions bikes arrive late then boost we all know the drill. 

 

No, the default setting for any non-Haemo DE list is 'punch them in the mouth Turn 1 with alpha-strike, keep up the aggression till they fold'. Anything else is gonna see your AV10 paper mache skimmers and T3 'what armour save' infantry mulched by...anything from bolters up. Back when Wracks were Troops, you could maybe shove them on an objective and Go To Ground like a wimp, and thus have somewhat capacity to endlessly camp an objective for 'yeah king free VP for doing nothing!1!! le tacticool' Maelstrom stupidity. DE aren't Guard or Tau though, you can't do that nowadays with Haemos having their own super-fun alternative codex. 

 

Reavers turboing around isn't really what DE do. It's your lance spam shredding enemy vehicles Turn 1, and punishing low model count elite armies (hey Knights how's life these days? Terminator core? Tell me more :) ). Late-game sure, roll onto objectives and get super-cool VP spam happening. But that's only going to work if the enemy is still reeling from your Turn 1 and 2. If you don't get your alpha-strike off, DE have no staying power. 

I agree massed fire can break cover saves. My point is GKs have far less units to match against MSU elves. How many S7 ap4 shots does it take to down a 3+ jinking skimmer? A lot.. roughly 7 shots per hull point on av10 more on ravagers. Also stunned/shaken embarked units can fire at full capacity with a Ld check btw they dont just snap shoot.

 

Until the jobs done. A dead Ravager or Blasterborn Venom Turn 1 is better than a couple of slightly-wounded ones. Focus fire is definitely the name of the game. DE aren't Serpent Spam, the difference between 3+ cover AV12 and AV10 open-topped is pretty huge. One of them is a tourney staple and is currently only kept in check by even more broken Tau lists. The latter is gonna wash around with the other second string lists out there, and punish Marines and lists like Knights with low model count. 

Blasterborn arent cheaper then scourges because they need to sacrifice their venom to deliver their darklight making it 170 ish vs 120 -140 depending on loadout.

 

A quad-gun takes care of Scourges pretty well, as do things like Interceptor MissileSides etc. The Venom starts on table, or if you are Reserved you can deploy out of quad-gun range (or Line of Sight), and turbo-fun into enemy lines to deliver that AP2 goodness. I'd say you're in a minority of DE players who don't take Blasterborn. They're pretty good man. 

Fair enough on the purifier/raven thing. I wouldn't trust it just from my own experience against those units but there's too many factors to simply say it doesn't work. A lone flyer IME though is pretty meh against a fast jinking army.

 

It's not the Raven that should worry you. Its the Purifiers 'Cleansing' nova into your paper mache skimmers. It ignores your cover saves and reks your AV10 open-topped. 

[Brom MKIV]

I gotta wonder how often you even see a dark eldar army or just skimmed a book. Alpha strike and blasters/born dont go together. Scourges have DS and move 12" and fire then they're cheaper, dragons have armour 3 strength 8 melta and battle focus which is light years ahead of blasterborn. Lance warriors are crap. They will struggle for LoS and far overpay for a single lance shot when you could simply buy another boat or something dedicated AT. New reavers are miles ahead of the former due to hitting vehicles and rending and beasts owned many large events long past when the other stars faltered, all the way up until gw crushed the build. It was designed to beat seerstar btw.. the premiere star until much cheaper much larger less gimicky beast star came along to dominate realestate.

Id say your in the minority of non dark eldar players with an opinion on an army you obviously know little about. Which is probably why your lance warrior packing opponents aren't doing so hot. 

 

Quad guns really? Whens the last time you saw one honestly or tried to field one against DE? So thats list tailoring and it sacrifices your reserve manipulation not that DE even break a sweat removing a couple meq wounds. Meanwhile have you ever seen what full disintegrator spam does to meq/teq? Its like incins but with 36" range removing 40 pt models. DE are a spoiler army. If they want to beat you and feel like tailoring they will do it. 

 

And then you didn't even take into account what WWPs and open topped skimmers bring to units like scytheguard and firedragons. What happens when he flips your alpha and just bunkers some grots up in a corner then drops ap2 ID templates melta and disi cannons all over the next turn? Lets be real here its one mid tier dex against the other and it will be bloody. Its not a walk over like what was portrayed initially in this thread by some. But, if were going 'that' direction with this thing then emos can step this to levels marines just can't.   

[calvin the wraithlord]

Running this vs the DE on Saturday, thoughts?

HQ
Librarian (110)
Psyker (Mastery Level 2); ; Nemesis Force Halberd; terminator armour; frag grenades; krak grenades; psyk-out grenades; psychic hood

Troops
4 Terminator Squad (205) x2
4× two Nemesis falchions; 3× storm bolter; psycannon; frag
grenades; krak grenades; psyk-out grenades
+ 1 Terminator Justicar two Nemesis falchions

 

Elites
9 Purifier Squad (300)
5× two Nemesis falchions; storm bolter; 4×
incinerator; frag grenades; krak grenades; psyk-out grenades
+ 1 Knight Of The Flame Nemesis Demon Hammer

 

Fast attack

Stormraven Gunship (201)
twin-linked assault cannon; twin-linked heavy bolter; searchlight; four
stormstrike missiles; ceramite plating

 

9 Interceptor squad (264)
7× Nemesis force sword; storm bolter; 2x incinerator; frag grenades; krak grenades; psyk-out grenades; personal teleporters
+1 Justicar two Nemesis falchions

Heavy support
Nemesis dreadknight (215)
heavy incinerator; heavy psycannon;  personal teleporter

1500 pts