Deciding on an army style and possibly a Legion.

[Leonite]

Hey again everyone... yeah, me again. You may have seen me in the main Age of Darkness subforum in the last few days, asking for advice on Legions and Armylists. I'd like to thank Slipstreams for the suggestion I got before for a mobile army, however I thought I'd ask here and now.

 

Now, as a heads up, I DO NOT have the books yet. I won't have the main two mini books for at the most a month. In addition, all of this is plans and I'd prefer, if possible, to steer away from using tanks in my force so I can use something different.

 

All that being said, what I have come to ask advice on is how well certain ideas for army lists might play, as well as specific Legions behind them, in all of your personal experiences. In addition each list configuration will include a bit of backstory I imagine behind the list and why I want to take it, as well as the Legions I've considered it with.

 

As for extra consideration, the armies below are going to be 1500 point (Budget) and played opposite 40K armies.

 

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List 1: Foot Soldiers and Jetbikes aka Bolters and Broomsticks. (Iron Hands, Imperial Fists, World Eaters, Night Lords)

 

This is the one that Slipstreams suggested to me and to be honest I still like a bit. The idea being that the core of the army is two large-ish tactical squads each with an Apothecary in it on foot, assisted to either side by 1 large/2 medium sized squads of Jetbikes and a Squadron of Javelins for Tank Hunting, lead by a Primus Medicae in the Jetbikes. The problem I have with this is that I'm not entirely sure how effective Jetbikes are in close combat, and otherwise I have no real close combat units.

 

As for the Legions, I see this as being the advance company for a Grand Company of Iron Hands, and as for the rest of them I see it more being a fast moving shock unit, designed to spread terror and shock. More so with the World Eaters and Night Lords, but I can see the sons of Dorn doing the same. I can see Terminators being added in Night Lords force in the future.

 

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List 2: Foot Assault. (Salamanders, Iron Hands, Imperial Fists, World Eaters)

 

This one is a more recent idea and honestly one of my... odder ones. The idea is that the core of the army would be foot slogging Space Marines, supported by a core of either tough Terminators or powerful assault Veterans, supported by a couple of Contempter Dreadnought. Possible HQ's for the army are most likely the Champion, the Chaplain, the Primus Medicae (Because who doesn't like a medicae?), a Moritat (as a distraction admittedly, the Distraction Carnifex effect) or Khârn in the World Eater's case.

 

As for the legions? A force designed for areas like cities and jungles were there's less room for vehicles to maneuver in.

 

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List 3: Veteran Foot Assualt (Salamanders, Iron Hands, Imperial Fists, Possibly World Eaters)

 

Like list 2, but with a Praetor taken and switching out the Veteran RoW, focusing more on hard to hurt Terminators and Veteran units than anything else. This is the list I'm most hesitant on due to what it is.

 

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Thoughts? Comments? Suggestions?

 

I will say now why I don't want tanks though: I have a mechanized Chaos Space Marine army, and I want to try for something different. 

[Leonite]

Ok, I've actually got something a bit more solid this time. I just realized that if I go Word Bearers, I've got something I can have work with them: The Daemon allies that I purchased to play with my CSM. So... I guess...

 

List 4: Word Bearers Variant

 

Basically one of the above combinations, but instead of any of the above, using the Dark Bretheran RoW. I understand that you basically get no creative variance unless you take Erebus then, but I wanted to check, are any of these lists viable under that RoW? And can Daemons ally normally or is that a no-go as well? As for the Daemons themselves, I have a couple of Heralds (Slaanesh on an Exalted Seeker Chariot and Nurgle), a unit of Plaguebearers and a unit of Seekers of Slaanesh. 

[Slips]

The Word Bearers RoW is the only way to currently take Daemons in any way, shape or form for 30k. You can, however, take almost anything barring a few daemonic engines/vehicles since they don't exist in this time period.

[Leonite]

The Word Bearers RoW is the only way to currently take Daemons in any way, shape or form for 30k. You can, however, take almost anything barring a few daemonic engines/vehicles since they don't exist in this time period.

Really? I heard that Kor Phanon or Erebus could do it... but then, I suppose that's less customizable. Fortunately the way my Heralds are set up so I can use them as sergeants if need be... is 2000 points (including Daemons) enough to consider taking that RoW?

 

And to be honest my plan was, if I go down this path, to make a few more Daemons. A Greater Daemon here, a Daemon Princes there, a seeker mounted Herald using the 3rd Edition models here...

 

Combo it with two big squads of Bearer Tacticals, either a unit of Gal Vorbak or Ashen Circle, a mortis Dread and not only do I have a new army... I conceivably have a big boost to my current Chaos Army. Maybe toss in a support squad too.

 

EDIT: This also might have something with me wanting to make a Heresy-Era Eliphas (from Dawn of War. He's a pretty good character. I can see him being a Heresy Era Dark Apostle)

[1ncarnadine]

 

The Word Bearers RoW is the only way to currently take Daemons in any way, shape or form for 30k. You can, however, take almost anything barring a few daemonic engines/vehicles since they don't exist in this time period.

Really? I heard that Kor Phanon or Erebus could do it... but then, I suppose that's less customizable. Fortunately the way my Heralds are set up so I can use them as sergeants if need be... is 2000 points (including Daemons) enough to consider taking that RoW?

Erebus and Kor Phaeron can allow you Daemons as allies as well. The WB RoW is kind of redundant, especially since many often take Erebus to use it because he sort of fulfills most of its requirements... but he already... agh

 

edit: Now I look at it I guess you do get Preferred Enemy: Loyalists and you super-screw psykers so there's that going for that RoW.

[Leonite]

Alright, now I have the books. And as I'm still trying to decide my legion, I decided I'd go for some sample lists, see what you guys think.

 

As a heads up though, all of these lists are based around the core I have at the moment: One Space Marine MK 2 Command set, One Apothecary set, and about 20 MK 2 Space Marines. The following are my lists, each at 1500 points. I know that's rather small, but I'm trying to keep costs down.

 

In addition, each of these lists represents an option I see with a different Legion. For paint variety with my chaos Army I will damit that I've tried to stick away from Dark Painted armies, so sadly the Iron Hands are out. The Flesh is weak, and so am I. I also decided to go for something that would be rock solid at it's core.

 

List 1: World Eaters

 

HQ: -Chaplain Consul with Refractor Field and Artificer armor (Using Hammer, Power "Maul") (105pts)

 

-Primus Medicae in Capatchii Terminator Armor (120pts)

Troops: -Tactical Squad: 19 Marines, 1 Artificer Armor Sergeant (260 pts)

-"Despoiler" Tactical Squad (Pistols and CCW, otherwise same as above) (260pts, Chaplain goes here)

Elites: -Apothecarion: 2 Apothecaries. 1 With Augury Scanner (95pts)

 

- Contemptor Mortis Dreadnought with Assualt Cannons (180pts)

 

- 8 Red Butchers and 1 Devoured with Chainfist (475pts, Primus Medicae)

 

Total: 1495pts. Possible Expansions to 2000 pts: Spartan Assualt Tank, some other fire support, Khârn. Possible alteration: Switch out Primus Medicae for Second Chaplain. 

 

Noted Weakness: Lack of Anti-Tank

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List 2: Imperial Fists. (Not originally planned, but what they heck)

 

HQ: -Legion Champion with Thunder Hammer, Artificer Armor and Refractor Field (140pts)

 

Troops: -Tactical Squads: 19 Tactical Marines and 1 Sergeant, as above (260pts) x2

 

Elites: -Contemptor-Mortis Dreadnought as above (180 pts)

 

-9 Templar Bretheren and 1 Chapter Champion with Solarite Power Gauntlet, and Melta Bombs (335pts)

 

-3 Apothecaries, 2 with Augury Scanners, 1 With Power Sword (Power Sword goes with the Templars) (155pts)

 

Heavy Support: Legion Heavy Support Squad with Missile Launchers and Augury Scanner (165pts)

 

Total: 1500 pts

 

So, thoughts?

[Moonstalker]

The Red Butchers with attached Primus Medicae hurt the first list tremendously.  Walking Cataphractrii across the table is simply unfeasible because of their lack of run move, and doing it with a unit that can't even shoot anything only makes it worse.  You've got 600 points that won't see melee until turn 3 or 4 (or never, depending on how good a job your enemy does of kiting - or shooting).

 

2nd list, Legion Champions aren't terribly good.  They're a lot of points for not a lot of benefit.  I would personally rather take a regular centurion with the same wargear and spend the Consul points on wargear for other units.  5 missile launchers and a C-M are not much firepower, especially in 40k where you often see a lot of Knights, Riptides, Wraithknights, and similar.

 

Both lists lack Vexillas in the troop squads.  You can get away with this in the despoiler squad in the first list because of the attached Chaplain, but lack of ATSKNF on legion marines will lead to failed morale checks/squad wipes if you don't do something to buffer their leadership.

[1ncarnadine]

As noted in List 1, you'll probably need a transport for those Red Butchers, and that usually means a Spartan. 

 

Or you could go completely nuts and throw them into a Caestus Ram. Has anyone done this? It sounds like amazing/dangerous fun, almost Ork style.

And then you could just go fully off the deep end, go all airborne and drop 18 despoilers with a Chaplain/Apothecary from a Storm Eagle.

 

Great bad ideas aside, the World Eaters are a hard legion to play at low poitns due to wanting to get into close combat en masse and usually requiring potentially costly transports to do so. One thought would be to change around your purchase order and get a Spartan before you buy some Butchers. You can pile a boatload of despoilers w/ friends into it and have a list you can get into a play-ready state sooner, and the Spartan's presence helps solve your anti-tank issues. Leaves extra points left over for other stuff, like vexillas and filling out squads, etc.

[Leonite]

Oh, the only purchase I have at the moment is my MK2 Armor set (Command +20 MK2 Tacticals) and An Apothecary set. However, that Despoiler idea? Sonds like a good idea, maybe 18 Despoilers, a Chaplain and an Apoth? 

 

The only problem is a lack of numbers then, but I'm going to be playing World Eaters so...

What would you reccomend I'd get if I had more points left over though? My heart is slightly set on the Butchers, but they aren't necessary.

[1ncarnadine]

If you do want to keep the butchers, the second list that Slipstreams posted in the Community Thread is pretty compelling (I think he's given WE a lot of thought....).

Otherwise off the top of my head, replacing the Butchers (and Primus Medicae?) with a kitted out Spartan leaves you something over 250 points. 4-5 Jetbikes? Total number depends on weapons load out but they can be tooled up for a couple different roles, or even magnetized. That leaves your smaller tac squad (give bolters + vexilla) to sit on objectives. Other ideas include a Fire Raptor, any flavor of Sicaran, possibly a 3rd tac squad? Tons of options for that point range

But it does sound like you really want those butchers

[Leonite]

What can I say? I like them! Slipstreams gave me an awesome list to use, so I'll probably go with that

[Leonite]

Ok, I've booted up Battlescribe and taken a look through... and found something a bit more troubling. Namely that I could take a Unit of 20 CCW Marines in a Spartan with a Chaplain... instead of Taking the Red Butchers. More Wounds too, but at the same time, 3+ Armour save compared to a 2+, meaning that while they'll get into close combat,t hey'll most likely get slaughtered by anything with a power sword (like, say, Grey Knights.)

 

Thus I suggest this: Perhaps I should take both a unit of Red Butcher and a 20 Beserker Squad, and simply switch them out depending on the opponent? I'm fighting orks or Tyranids? Probably best to send the berserk. I'm fighting marines? The Red Butchers ignore their armor and need TH/SS to be countered in assault.

 

Mind you I could skip out on the Spartan completely and take another Berserker squad, then do my best to max out the tacticals. Because the words "Space Marine Horde" sound so intimidating, even if it means I have the anti armor capabilities of a single Fire Raptor.

[Leonite]

Ok, another question, seperate from the above: Should I consider making my Power Armoured marines into Despoilers (they're currently Tacticals)  or go for Tacticals instead? Keep in mind that besides them, there's a 6 Man unit of terminator death, a Spartan Assault Tank and a Fire Raptor in the list. Both units have Apothecaries, but there isn't enough points to spend for another Chaplain or even a transport without risking one of the other parts of the army.