Are Second Generation Chaos Astartes "Evil"?

[Conn Eremon]

Question:

 

Where does this assumption that for an Astartes to be "not evil" is to come crawling back to the Imperium come from?

 

Are the Carcharadon's slaughters somehow more "righteous" than those of the World Eaters? Do the victims of the Marines Malevolent reach up and forgive them because they're loyalists? Is the cruelty and butchery inflicted by the Dark Angels, Iron Hands, Minotaurs, Flesh Tearers, and their kin somehow sanctified because it is committed in the name of the Emperor, not the Chaos Gods?

 

Damn. :cuss ing. Straight.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

/roleplay

[Iron Father Ferrum]

 Is the cruelty and butchery inflicted by the Dark Angels, Iron Hands, Minotaurs, Flesh Tearers, and their kin somehow sanctified because it is committed in the name of the Emperor, not the Chaos Gods?

 

Your question is improperly phrased.  The Emperor is a Chaos God.

 

 

Ok with that can of worms opened up, let's move on.  What you're really asking is the age-old question about ends, means, and justification, to which I usually respond with another timeless adage about the road to Hell and good intentions.  (Funnily enough, I once commented to a friend that while the road to Hell is paved, making it a nice easy path to follow; but long is the road, and hard, that leadeth out of Hell.  Apparently, he'd never read Milton and didn't get the reference).

[ElectricPaladin]

Something to keep in mind is that how much it sucks to live in the Imperium of man has been grossly overstated by some fans, and that this story has entered into the fan consciousness as a counter-narrative to what much of the source material actual states. Read some Abnett - he does a great job of showing us that even a blighted, polluted hive world there are still friendly pie-sellers, teenagers blowing off school to experiment sexually, and administratum drones who really love their jobs. Mankind is old, its empire is in its dotage, and life in the galaxy is probably coming to an end... but that doesn't mean that no one's life is worth living.

In that context, I do think that there is a moral difference between many chapters of Astartes and their chaos counterparts. Loyalist marines are fighting to keep mankind free and alive. Do they have to make terrible choices and terrible sacrifices to achieve that? Absolutely. But what are the Traitors fighting for? Power, personal glory, sating the various strange urges they've picked up from living in the Warp for too long, satisfying their gods? That's not noble, and it's certainly not good. And while there might be Loyalist chapters who do terrible things - the Sons of Malice, before the Imperium busted them for eating folks and they went rogue, for example - and there might be, somewhere, chapters that lovingly protect societies of gentle chaos-worshipping peasants... but that - like an Imperium that is 100% y all the time for everyone who lives in it - is not something GW actually wrote.

I believe that this is a setting of shades of very dark grey, but I don't believe that it's possible to draw an overall moral equivalency between Chaos reavers, raiders, slavers, and murderers and Loyalist Astartes. Are their "Loyalist" Marines who are just as bad as their Chaos counterparts? Certainly. But they are the exception, not the rule.

Now, a more interesting argument is, are the Chaos marines still responsible for their actions after everything that has been done to them over the course of their indoctrination? I don't think the answer is clear, but I know what I prefer. If this were a setting where the Astartes of any kind were supposed to be merely automatons, acting out their programmed training, I'd lose all interest in them as protagonists or antagonists (except in very limited "can we survive the awful force of nature-style villain" stories), so that's not the interpretation of the setting I chose. Their indoctrination might make it very hard for Chaos marines to chose compassion, mercy, or constructive action, but not impossible, and most of them don't make that choice because they aren't strong enough people to buck their conditioning.

[Dammeron]

I always find the use of moral terms in the 40K universe somewhat amusing in their redundancy: the forces of the Eye are condemned as "corrupt" and "evil" by what, exactly? In contrast to what?; A genocidal, totalitarian theocracy and xenocidal expansionist regime that thinks nothing of lobotmising, eugenically cultivating and wiping out entire swathes of humanity for the purposes off sustaining some distorted abstract  of itself. Xenocidal, genetic supremacist alien cultures that, despite being largely responsible for the pervasiveness of Chaos in the 40K universe (thank you, Eldar empire!) seem to think that they operate on some level of superiority to the other species, expansionist regimes and empires that insist they are serving some "greater good" even while they massacre entire planetary populations, a whole species of alien thugs who want nothing more than to revel in violence, cultures of parasitic hyper-sadists that thrive on torture and despair and swarms of evolutionary nightmares whose only imperative is: consume, consume, consume.

 

There is no evil in the 40K universe; there is no good. The Emperor was and remains a monstrous, genocidal tyrant whose campaigns most likely claimed more lives and devastated more cultures than all of the wars of the Chaos Space Marines combined. The Imperium is a theocratic nightmare for the vast majority who have the misfortune to be born to it. The Eldar are slowly choking and suffocating on their own impermeable arrogance. Chaos is simply one of a choice of evils; that's the fun of it all. The fact that its servants kill and maim and slaughter and pollute and distort and mutilate in the name of their Gods or their own agendas makes little difference next to the fact that the servants of the Imperium kill and maim and slaughter and pollute and distort and mutilate in the name of their god and their agendas.

[Wade Garrett]

As far as "the Imperium isn't all that bad" goes...

 

To be a man in such times is to be one amongst billions. It is to live in the cruelest and most bloody regime imaginable.

 

I'm sure that not everyone in 1984 and Farenheit 451 had the Party and the Firemen oppressing them 24/7, but that sure as shooting doesn't make either one of those factions heroic exemplars of righteous and justice.

[Sheesh Mode]

As far as "the Imperium isn't all that bad" goes...

 

To be a man in such times is to be one amongst billions. It is to live in the cruelest and most bloody regime imaginable.

 

I'm sure that not everyone in 1984 and Farenheit 451 had the Party and the Firemen oppressing them 24/7, but that sure as shooting doesn't make either one of those factions heroic exemplars of righteous and justice.

Which remains a major weakness of the 40k story: that it has no example of a loving humanity.

[ElectricPaladin]

 

As far as "the Imperium isn't all that bad" goes...

 

To be a man in such times is to be one amongst billions. It is to live in the cruelest and most bloody regime imaginable.

 

I'm sure that not everyone in 1984 and Farenheit 451 had the Party and the Firemen oppressing them 24/7, but that sure as shooting doesn't make either one of those factions heroic exemplars of righteous and justice.

Which remains a major weakness of the 40k story: that it has no example of a loving humanity.

 

 

 

Yes, but... I'm pretty sure that the sensationalist blurb in a quote that is always used as promotional material (ie. I've usually seen it on the back of a book, or in the front cover, where it will be seen by someone flipping the book open) isn't exactly a strong source when we are talking about a world with so much other stuff. It's true, those words are there, but they are bucked by, for example, the entire Caiphas Cain series, which presents pretty big chunks of the Imperium as decent to live in.

[*Furyou Miko]

Cain is also presented as an alternate vision of the 40k universe where techpriests wear white and Sisters are kinky catholic schoolgirls in armour, soo...

[ElectricPaladin]

Cain is also presented as an alternate vision of the 40k universe where techpriests wear white and Sisters are kinky catholic schoolgirls in armour, soo...

 

I was under the impression that Cain was a "one man's subjective experience" sort of story, not a full-on alternate version.

 

I never got the impression that the Sisters were terribly kinky. That one he met who was having a thing with the schola's headmaster seemed pretty vanilla. I mean, there were the ones who were giggling, but they were teenagers, in training, not full Sororitas. You're telling me you wouldn't giggle if you had power armor and were 16? I'd be giggling nonstop.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

There's no giggling in the Schola Progenium.  That's probably an expulsion-level event.

[Kol Saresk]

There's no giggling in the Schola Progenium.  That's probably an expulsionexecution-level event.

[*Furyou Miko]

 

Cain is also presented as an alternate vision of the 40k universe where techpriests wear white and Sisters are kinky catholic schoolgirls in armour, soo...

 

I was under the impression that Cain was a "one man's subjective experience" sort of story, not a full-on alternate version.

 

I never got the impression that the Sisters were terribly kinky. That one he met who was having a thing with the schola's headmaster seemed pretty vanilla. I mean, there were the ones who were giggling, but they were teenagers, in training, not full Sororitas. You're telling me you wouldn't giggle if you had power armor and were 16? I'd be giggling nonstop.

 

Not if I was raised as a psychotic warrior nun. Probably.

[tylerw]

As ArcticPaladin said but also because, even if they recanted and actively fought Chaos, the Imperium would still put a bolt shell in their heads just 'cuz they aren't Imperial Astartes. Not to mention those that truly follow Chaos would also want them dead.

That doesn't make them "evil" though - their continued following of Chaos (and the actions implicit) is why they'd be evil.

 

There are night lords, for example, who probably are not exactly evil.  They are selfish, do terrible things, but aren't quite EVIL in my mind.  More in the anti-hero/selfish/bad spectrum.

 

And that's only if you're viewing chaos as evil, not enlightenment, which some of the chaos followers do.  Granted, most of them are horrible, genocidal types, but I think some of the nurglites border on kindness, and maybe some tsneezers can be nearly-decent, like Ahriman.

 

 

There's no giggling in the Schola Progenium.  That's probably an expulsion-level event.

 

HERESY

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Ahriman isn't half-decent.  He may seem that way from time to time, but we're still talking about a Chaos Space Marine sorcerer who travels from world to world sacking libraries, universities, and any other site of learning he can find (and killing the entirety of their staff) in the hopes of finding just one more scrap on the nature of Chaos, the location of a Webway portal, or the means to enter the Black Library.  His motives are entirely selfish and the means he's using involve wanton death and destruction.  Ahriman is a Very Bad Guy, period.  He only looks light gray because he shares page space with the likes of Abaddon, Huron, and Khârn.

[Dammeron]

^ But, of course, by the same token, Marneus Calgar leads crusades that obliterate entire cultures; burn worlds and reduce their populations to ash, largely on the basis that they simply do not conform in some minute way to an ideal of humanity or of Imperial ideology. The only reason he and the other figures of note within the "loyalist" space marines are perceived as "good guys" is because of the Imperial slant of the writing within the codexes. Viewed outside of that context, in terms of what Calgar and his ilk actually do and represent, they are basically super powered Hitlers, Stalins etc; the Nazi notion of the uber-mensch become frighteningly manifest. They are monsters; the very worst of humanity emphasised and enshrined as ideal. That's not to say that those who follow Chaos are any better, but I generally fail to see how they're any worse, particularly when viewed from the perspectives of their victims (I doubt, for example, it makes much difference to the Eldar child of the Exodite colony whether they are being slaughtered for the Imperium or for one of the Dark Gods; the fact that they are being slaughtered is likely the principle concern).

[Emperors Immortals]

Like the old 2000AD magazine, I thought hope and love were introduced into a dystopian narrative through the characters perception. This is important as I understand its the way 40k universe is presented as a collection of perspectives on the universe. No character understands the actual nature of an uncaring universe, they can only understand there perspective through race, faction and alignment.

 

Tldr; the ultimate grimdark is that the only love or compassion in that uncaring reality is that introduced by the narrator. Islands in a stream.

[incinerator950]

Cain is also presented as an alternate vision of the 40k universe where techpriests wear white and Sisters are kinky catholic schoolgirls in armour, soo...

http://i891.photobucket.com/albums/ac116/incinerator950/Mobile%20Uploads/tmp_24128-10415561_10202540758269052_9114921606682749007_n560170390_zpsf342a664.jpg

[Forté]

I wouldn't even say Chaos was evil. It's more of a different set of moral boundaries.

 

For example, Nurgle. He delights in bringing new creations to life. Yes, these may cause other lifeforms to suffer but he is happy to end that suffering in one of two ways.

 

That is very similar to the Imperiums "Join us or be our enemy" routine.

[Dammeron]

I wouldn't even say Chaos was evil. It's more of a different set of moral boundaries.

 

For example, Nurgle. He delights in bringing new creations to life. Yes, these may cause other lifeforms to suffer but he is happy to end that suffering in one of two ways.

 

That is very similar to the Imperiums "Join us or be our enemy" routine.

 

You also have to bear in mind that Nurgle welcomes everyone and everything, regardless of state, species or inclination. The Imperium does not; it is supremacist and genocidal; any deviation, genetically, ideologically, makes you less worthy than a beast. Also, there is some degree of purpose, poetry and, indeed, satisfaction to be found in Chaos; the followers of Nurgle are an excellent example, since, as The Liber Chaotica details, one of the first elements of Nurgle's "gift" to his followers is the distorting of perception so that they come to find beauty, pleasure and meaning in their diseased and debased conditions. There is also possibility of advancement and evolution within that condition, since one can aspire to the status of champion or even immortality as a daemon, which is generally not the case in the Imperium, whose vassals tend to be genetically engineered or technologically mutilated to perform particular functions up to the point of their expiration.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Oh, I'm not saying that Imperial Space Marines are saints.  Both sides have justifications for what they do; the Iron Hands murdered, in cold blood, one-third of the population of an entire subsector as a warning not to rebel again.  By comparison, how many lives of loyalists and soldiers did they save by preventing that or a neighboring subsector from every rebelling again out of fear?  Does this make them better than Chaos Marines?

 

The answer to that goes right back to the root of the question which we've been discussing for four pages now: are actions inherently good/evil or right/wrong?  Does intent play a part?  Does motivation?  It can be argued that by killing such a large number of people, the Iron Hands were acting for the good of the many over the good of the few (although in this case, the "many" is the entire Imperium and the "few" is several billion people).  But if the very act of killing in cold blood, regardless of intent, motivation, or intended consequence, is considered an act of evil, then by no yardstick possible are the Iron Hands justified in this act.

 

It's all personal judgment calls.

[Sheesh Mode]

 

Yes, but... I'm pretty sure that the sensationalist blurb in a quote that is always used as promotional material (ie. I've usually seen it on the back of a book, or in the front cover, where it will be seen by someone flipping the book open) isn't exactly a strong source when we are talking about a world with so much other stuff. 

 

It sets a precedent and tone for the series. The Cain series is an exception to that, not the rule. 

[ElectricPaladin]

 

 

Yes, but... I'm pretty sure that the sensationalist blurb in a quote that is always used as promotional material (ie. I've usually seen it on the back of a book, or in the front cover, where it will be seen by someone flipping the book open) isn't exactly a strong source when we are talking about a world with so much other stuff. 

 

It sets a precedent and tone for the series. The Cain series is an exception to that, not the rule. 

 

 

I never said that it should be discounted, I just think that as a source to understand what we are talking about, novels > blurb.

[Kol Saresk]

And most of the novels are bleak, dreary, living in the Imperium is miserable and your life has no value. For every Caiphas Cain who lives a carefree life, there is are fifteen Ibram Gaunts who have to fight and scrape just to keep from getting killed by the very people who should be fighting alongside them and for every Ibram Gaunt there are thirty Bobby Sues whose lives are meaningless to the Imperium and they will die miserable ends. Whether it be as cannon fodder for one of the many "archenemies" or a broken cog in a galaxy-sized machine made of sweat and blood.

 

The only time I can think of Dan Abnett writing happy people is in Eisenhorn and Ravenor and nobody who entered those novels stayed happy.

[Wade Garrett]

The first planet in Brothers of the Snake seemed like a nice place to live, as long as you caught it in between Dark Eldar raids.

[ElectricPaladin]

And most of the novels are bleak, dreary, living in the Imperium is miserable and your life has no value. For every Caiphas Cain who lives a carefree life, there is are fifteen Ibram Gaunts who have to fight and scrape just to keep from getting killed by the very people who should be fighting alongside them and for every Ibram Gaunt there are thirty Bobby Sues whose lives are meaningless to the Imperium and they will die miserable ends. Whether it be as cannon fodder for one of the many "archenemies" or a broken cog in a galaxy-sized machine made of sweat and blood.

 

The only time I can think of Dan Abnett writing happy people is in Eisenhorn and Ravenor and nobody who entered those novels stayed happy.

 

I believe that working for the Inquisition makes you an outlier.

 

Look, I'm not saying that life in the Imperium is skittles and beer by modern standards. What I'm saying is that while times are pretty tough, summing up the entirety of this huge empire as "human life is worthless so the monsters who want to kill and torture all the humans and go out of their way to do it for fun are just as bad as the monsters who only sometimes kill and torture humans when they feel they have to." I think that life can get pretty bad before it's not worth living to the point that the ravagers, raiders, and destroyers are morally equivalent to the defenders, however brutal they may sometimes need to be.