BearersOfSalvation Posted November 9, 2014 Share Posted November 9, 2014 Is there any real use for power fists on marine sergeants in this edition? Powerfist + combi weapon used to be my go-to for tac sergeants, but now It seems to me that they cost too much to just toss in to a tac (or dev, heh) squad for a little extra flexibility at 35 points. On an assault squad, I think I'd prefer a (conveniently cheaper) power weapon. I'm not sure about sternguard, and the various elite melee squads (honor guard, vanguard, command squad) can probably use them, I haven't really examined them yet. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/299032-power-fists-on-sergeants/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElectricPaladin Posted November 9, 2014 Share Posted November 9, 2014 I think being called out for a challenge is the biggest problem. I sometimes use power fists in squads that get accompanied by a high-I IC. I still love 'em on death company - no character to challenge! The thing is, what they're for is punching tanks. On squads who are gonna be punching tanks, they're great, but how often does that happen? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/299032-power-fists-on-sergeants/#findComment-3857270 Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreyCrow Posted November 9, 2014 Share Posted November 9, 2014 Electric Paladin said it all ! Power Fists are great for taking out tanks and Monstruous Creatures, but they can indeed be targeted out because of challenges. They can't be effective in targeting a melee *character* that goes at higher initiative because unless you have someone else to accept the challenge, the Power Fist Sergeant will die before he can even swing. Another issue is delivery : How are you going to make sure that your power fist Sergeant will reach its intended target ? The answer (because I feel power fist Sergeants are awesome and I'd really want to have some !) that I'm going to include in my 1850 points battles is a melta/multi-melta/Power Fist tactical squad in a Drop Pod. Crashing them right through enemy lines, supported by a unforgiving advance of the rest of my troops and they'll feel like the A-Team ! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/299032-power-fists-on-sergeants/#findComment-3857295 Share on other sites More sharing options...
aquamarine Posted November 26, 2014 Share Posted November 26, 2014 Best thing for a flexible sarge, is a combi-weapon and meltabombs. As Electric Paladin said, challenges have killed PFs on sergeants (and pretty much on all 1-wound models); even power weapons are a dubious choice, as you need to pay for veteran status too, to make the most of CC attacks. Three sergeants thus equipped in an army take up between 75 and 105 points, which are much better spent elsewhere... e.g. you could buy transports for all three squads for that. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/299032-power-fists-on-sergeants/#findComment-3871991 Share on other sites More sharing options...
knife&fork Posted November 26, 2014 Share Posted November 26, 2014 Challenge rules (7th ed in particular) has (mostly) killed power weapons on 1W characters that are alone in a unit. If you've got other characters there it's a different ballgame. Power fists are excellent, just not worth 25 pts in most cases. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/299032-power-fists-on-sergeants/#findComment-3872109 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MagicMan Posted November 30, 2014 Share Posted November 30, 2014 A marine with a power-fist is a one-man army though. You pay for the ability to hurt anything in the game. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/299032-power-fists-on-sergeants/#findComment-3874989 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axagoras Posted November 30, 2014 Share Posted November 30, 2014 until he gets cut down at i10-2 by another character Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/299032-power-fists-on-sergeants/#findComment-3875268 Share on other sites More sharing options...
knife&fork Posted November 30, 2014 Share Posted November 30, 2014 until he gets cut down at i10-2 by another character A marine sergeant can't be expected to survive any challenge vs MEQ and up. Deny the challenge or have another character step in. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/299032-power-fists-on-sergeants/#findComment-3875506 Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreyCrow Posted December 1, 2014 Share Posted December 1, 2014 Well, you can run a Power Fist on a Tactical sergeant with no problems to be honest, as long as you neuter the counter units your opponent will throw at it (any I2 and up !) PF are there to take out tanks and MCs, and it's always good to have some than not ! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/299032-power-fists-on-sergeants/#findComment-3875678 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kastor Krieg Posted December 1, 2014 Share Posted December 1, 2014 That's why the Crusader Squad is superior - you can hide a power fist or power sword among one of the Initiates, who is not challengeable. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/299032-power-fists-on-sergeants/#findComment-3875738 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElectricPaladin Posted December 1, 2014 Share Posted December 1, 2014 That's why the Crusader Squad is superior - you can hide a power fist or power sword among one of the Initiates, who is not challengeable. Death company work the same way. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/299032-power-fists-on-sergeants/#findComment-3875993 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Father Ferrum Posted December 1, 2014 Share Posted December 1, 2014 You also don't have enough attacks from one model with a power fist to make a serious difference. He's a max of three attacks, and that's if you charged. . . but you're a Tactical Squad, you must have some special weapons like plasma that you're shooting instead of charging. So really, two attacks. Odds are you'll only ever get one hit on that MC with it anyway, and they're tough enough that they can eat a single wound (or two!) before they finish demolishing the entirety of the squad. The problem with dealing with MCs is that you need a high volume of high-powered attacks or any volume of Instant Death attacks to reliable kill it. Terminators (of either stripe), Assault Centurions, or any of the wholly-configurable assault units can be geared to go punch MCs in the face because multiple models in the unit can/do carry those high powered weapons. One lonely Tac Sergeant waving his oversized hand around isn't -- and shouldn't -- scare an MC unless it's already suffering from severe bloodloss from a close encounter with gravguns or something. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/299032-power-fists-on-sergeants/#findComment-3876010 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearersOfSalvation Posted December 1, 2014 Author Share Posted December 1, 2014 Yeah, 35 points and challengeable is really different than 15 points and no challenge rules. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/299032-power-fists-on-sergeants/#findComment-3876045 Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreyCrow Posted December 1, 2014 Share Posted December 1, 2014 You also don't have enough attacks from one model with a power fist to make a serious difference. He's a max of three attacks, and that's if you charged. . . but you're a Tactical Squad, you must have some special weapons like plasma that you're shooting instead of charging. So really, two attacks. Odds are you'll only ever get one hit on that MC with it anyway, and they're tough enough that they can eat a single wound (or two!) before they finish demolishing the entirety of the squad. The problem with dealing with MCs is that you need a high volume of high-powered attacks or any volume of Instant Death attacks to reliable kill it. Terminators (of either stripe), Assault Centurions, or any of the wholly-configurable assault units can be geared to go punch MCs in the face because multiple models in the unit can/do carry those high powered weapons. One lonely Tac Sergeant waving his oversized hand around isn't -- and shouldn't -- scare an MC unless it's already suffering from severe bloodloss from a close encounter with gravguns or something. You're looking at the Power Fist on his own as a random upgrade and I definitely agree with you when looking at it this way :) However, you could have a meltagun instead of a plasmagun, and with the veteran with the Power Fist get a total of 4 S8 shots/attacks on the turn, not including the krak grenades (9 S6 shots at Initiative 4) of the rest of the squad as well as the boltgun shots from the turns before. A member of the B&C I have much respect for (and that we don't see much of lately...) once told me that we should look at the Sergeant upgrades as squad upgrades rather than individual character upgrades and I totally agree with him on that point ! You gear the squad to do a specific job and that includes the Sergeant, the special and the heavy weapons. On its own, this won't be the ultimate MC/vehicle killer for sure, but as long as that unit has some form of transportation it will work very well in a list designed to have multiple units support one another to reach their intended goal :) Once again, the player will want to avoid any unit that can challenge you out, so nothing with the character profile (but then you'll have the rest of your army dealing with these units). If the player is looking for something dedicated, then definitely that squad won't work for his playstyle ! I do agree that Tactical squads might not be the most optimized place to put a power fist (because you'll have to upgrade the Sergeant to get the most out of it), and they're definitely better spent on units with better profiles already as base stats. That said, for an army that is very Tactical squad heavy (6 of them) with no points for very dedicated units, then they will work :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/299032-power-fists-on-sergeants/#findComment-3876063 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axagoras Posted December 1, 2014 Share Posted December 1, 2014 until he gets cut down at i10-2 by another character A marine sergeant can't be expected to survive any challenge vs MEQ and up. Deny the challenge or have another character step in. Which is why you should not waste 25 points in the power fist Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/299032-power-fists-on-sergeants/#findComment-3876411 Share on other sites More sharing options...
knife&fork Posted December 1, 2014 Share Posted December 1, 2014 until he gets cut down at i10-2 by another character A marine sergeant can't be expected to survive any challenge vs MEQ and up. Deny the challenge or have another character step in. Which is why you should not waste 25 points in the power fist It was more an argument against CC upgrades on sergeants in general rather than just powerfists. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/299032-power-fists-on-sergeants/#findComment-3876431 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaedes Nex Posted December 2, 2014 Share Posted December 2, 2014 Is there any real use for power fists on marine sergeants in this edition? Powerfist + combi weapon used to be my go-to for tac sergeants, but now It seems to me that they cost too much to just toss in to a tac (or dev, heh) squad for a little extra flexibility at 35 points. On an assault squad, I think I'd prefer a (conveniently cheaper) power weapon. I'm not sure about sternguard, and the various elite melee squads (honor guard, vanguard, command squad) can probably use them, I haven't really examined them yet. You're completely right, and there's not much more to say. This is mainly due to challenges as many posters have mentioned. Are power fists in general still worth it? Yes, if they are hidden, stock, free, or discounted. As a 25 point upgrade on a W1 MEQ sergeant? No. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/299032-power-fists-on-sergeants/#findComment-3876909 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MagicMan Posted December 4, 2014 Share Posted December 4, 2014 I've found my Sarge's rarely get challenged. They get challenged most often by Chaos players (who have to challenge) who haven't taken any close combat gear (because they have to challenge, and its a waste to spend points on a 1 wound guy who'll die in a challenge) and my Sarge's regularly pound them into the dirt. I used to be all over Combi-Weapons, but now, its all about the flexibility that Power weapons offer. That and the fact that it flies in the face of ''40k wisdom'' and so often works for that very reason. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/299032-power-fists-on-sergeants/#findComment-3879497 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishagu Posted December 7, 2014 Share Posted December 7, 2014 A power fist in a tac squad can defo be useful. Against a Tyranid mc with few attacks for example, your Sgt can wear it down after a few turns. Good for basic Marines v marines stalemates in cc as well... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/299032-power-fists-on-sergeants/#findComment-3882166 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SyNidus Posted December 7, 2014 Share Posted December 7, 2014 I do love having fists on my tactical sgts. Always such a surprise for my opponent whenever he pulps their units. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/299032-power-fists-on-sergeants/#findComment-3882190 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albrek Posted December 10, 2014 Share Posted December 10, 2014 As an aside thought, what about gunslinging BAngles. in my twin meltagun assault squad, sarg currently has twin infernus pistols. 2 S8 AP1 shots at 6", and retains I4 in combat. admittedly having to get within 6" is perhaps abit of an ask. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/299032-power-fists-on-sergeants/#findComment-3885301 Share on other sites More sharing options...
girot Posted December 10, 2014 Share Posted December 10, 2014 Rather than remodel can I get away with simply treating the fist like A normal power weapon? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/299032-power-fists-on-sergeants/#findComment-3886109 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Father Ferrum Posted December 11, 2014 Share Posted December 11, 2014 In a casual setting, I suppose, but if you're participating in anything formal like a tournament or campaign, I'd remodel it. The reason is that in terms of power weapons, their rules are determined by how the model is armed. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/299032-power-fists-on-sergeants/#findComment-3886293 Share on other sites More sharing options...
tdemayo Posted December 11, 2014 Share Posted December 11, 2014 I think it's the rapid fire rules, more than challenges even, that make the fist less usefull. A tactical squad with bolters and a plasma gun is almost always better of shooting them twice than charging. So if I'm avoiding combat anyway, the fist seems like a dubious use of points. I do still like fists on foot squads that have BP CCW and Bolt guns, like some versions of wolves and chaos. Dismount, rapid fire, then charge the survivors next round. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/299032-power-fists-on-sergeants/#findComment-3886600 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevak Dal Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 until he gets cut down at i10-2 by another character A marine sergeant can't be expected to survive any challenge vs MEQ and up. Deny the challenge or have another character step in. *sigh* As a chaos player, I sincerely wish I could...but we have to accept any challenge, no matter the odds. :( Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/299032-power-fists-on-sergeants/#findComment-3953107 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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