Curing/Defeating/Controlling the Rage/Thirst

[ElectricPaladin]

It seems to me that many Blood Angels fans dance around the same quest that obsesses the Blood Angels - finding a way around the Black Rage and the Red Thirst. This is probably a testament to how compelling these conditions can be, that we, the players, can't get enough of them. However, I think that it often leads to a great deal of negativity, as creative players present successor chapters or storylines that promote this or that solution, or temporary solution, or unique character who has defeated one of these circumstances, and then the rest of us shoot them down.

 

However, it's obvious that GW doesn't really want us to view the Rage and the Thirst as completely inviolable conditions. We have Mephiston, who defeated the Rage entirely, and Lemartes, who retains some modicum of control. We have the Blood Drinkers, whose strange rites may have damned them in the long run, but in the meantime allow them to remain a disciplined and effective chapter, largely untroubled by the Curse. The question isn't "should there be chapters who have controlled or contained the Flaws and special characters who have overcome the Black Rage?" - the answer is obviously, yes, but rarely, and at a cost. The question, in my mind, is "what is the difference between a containment for the Flaw or a character who has overcome it that the community will accept and one that the community will reject?"

 

That's what I want to discuss here.

 

So, feel free to contribute your own ideas for cures/solution/containment/mitigation for the Flaws that drive the Blood Angels, but I'm also interested in your answer to this question. What separates plot-lines you enjoy reading about from the ones that make you roll your eyes?

[Anver Cassiel]

interesting thoughts. Personally i love the methods described in Death of Integrity regarding fighting the red thirst. However i really dislike the official fluff about lemartes and mephiston overcoming the black rage, as i feel the red thirst would be easier to control/regulate as opposed the the rage. I really don't like the idea (at least none that i have seen so far) of any BA or successor being able to overcome the black rage. And i don't think I'm entirely alone in that. To me the black rage is unbeatable. No human, even a gene enhanced space marine, is able to withstand the psychic trauma of seeing their genetic progenitor brutally murdered by one of his brothers. It is also something that although i like the idea of Sanguinary Priests searching for cure, i hope they never do, because without the struggle against the darker side, the blood angels would have no need to be the noble and angelic force they try to be.

 

I think we all love the tragic, heroic nature of the BA fighting the horrible curse whilst trying to retain their nobility, but its satisfying, almost cathartic to see these heroes succumb to the rage and thirst, which to a degree, defines who the BA are. I think that's shown by the movement of Tycho from essentially Dante's chosen successor to the DC. I actually love that little bit of fluff, and it shows me that even the most noble of blood angels is not immune to the flaw. Although i hate to quote a movie, i agree with the green goblin in spiderman; people love to see a hero, but even more, we love to see them fall.

[Leonaides]

Point to note perhaps- it isnt that marines see their primarch being killed, and old fluff suggests that its pretty rare for any given marine to get that far through the insanity (lestrallio proceedure) but that they themselves remember as fact that they themselves are dead and remember dying and know they are dead. Its the shattered sanity and mental confusion as much as anything.

[Blindhamster]

Personally I like Mephiston because he is meant to be pretty unique in his ability to throw odd the rage, the thing that makes him acceptable is that he is still somehow less than he was, despite all he gained in doing it. Anyone that naysays about Mephiston should read the eclipse of hope and Mephiston: Lord of death as they give a good look into his mind, he doesn't even know what he is anymore, he just knows he's loyal, but still believes he is dammed.

 

Lemartes is alright because the idea for him is that his iron will is so strong he has been able to hold the full extent of the rage back, but he is still losing to it.

 

So, both of the above are coll because whilst they have gained a reprieve, they are depicted as not having truly beaten it, or having gained a worse curse.

 

Fan made characters tend to be total bad asses and nothing more, which is pretty lame

[Shaezus]

The problem with giving even just one chapter a reprieve from the flaw is that the first logical thing they would do would be to share it. So it would have to be a chapter who have been cut off or kept themselves isolated; maybe this would have helped them somehow.

 

Whilst I can understand those who say "I don't want us to lose the flaw. It's what makes us who we are." I can't agree at all. Not only would this make Corbulo have a ragee but it also condemns warriors with hundreds of years of combat experience to an early and tragic death. So whilst it is right to give thanks to the flaw for highlighting our noble humility, it is wrong to say this is what makes us noble.

 

The Blood Angels were created, with the blood of Sanguinius, to be the Emperor's honour guard. So yep, you really can't get more noble than that.

[ChapelXIII]

As a metaphorical tool the thirst/rage is great at bringing a bit of humanity to super humans. It shows that they struggle with urges beyond their control and shows that they aren't completely perfect. This makes them more heroic when they overcome those struggles. It is one of the things I like about the Blood Angels and separates them from the "Mary Sue"ness that other Adeptus Chapters seem to exemplify.

 

Going from the perspective of my marines; the Sanguine Blades believe that the red thirst/black rage is a gift from Sanguinius. To quote myself.

The last gift of the Great Angel was to pass down his blade. His martial fury to his sons in hope that it could aid the Emperor in his defense against the heretic, the daemon, and the xenos. These weapons are the Red Thirst and the Black Rage. 
The Red Thirst must be honed and focused to destroy mankind’s foes. The Blades work to make use of the Red Thirst. The Sanguine Blades train not  to completely suppress their flaw, but to hold it at bay when unneeded; like a blade in a sheath. When in engaged with the enemy they let the thirst drive them, pushing their martial skills. A Blade feels at home in close combat as the thirst takes hold feeling a connection with the Angel and the chapter knowing that this ties them together. 
The Black Rage is the strongest and darkest weapon. To give your life to the Death Company is to become the embodiment of the Angels fury against all that harm the Imperium and the Emperor. Those under the throes of the rage are as close to the Angel as they can be; reliving their Primarchs final moments. Those in the Death Company are revered, and by some even envied, as they are the closest a brother can be to Sanguinius. 
However, they are also pitied because the brother is lost forever. An astartes, as much as they are, can not endure the Primarch, his rage, and his sorrow long without his his mind coming apart. So the Death Company is sent into battle as the ultimate weapon of the Blades. Sent as the most destructive force the Sanguine Blades have into the heart of the enemy to find glory in battle and peace in death.

This 'flaw' is a only one when you look at it in that light. An Astartes is born to fight and die for the Emperor and the Imperium. In a universe that is constantly finding new and more dangerous enemies, I will take whatever weapons Sanguinius and the Emperor will provide to defend their domain.

[The Red Thirst]

As a metaphorical tool the thirst/rage is great at bringing a bit of humanity to super humans. It shows that they struggle with urges beyond their control and shows that they aren't completely perfect. This makes them more heroic when they overcome those struggles. It is one of the things I like about the Blood Angels and separates them from the "Mary Sue"ness that other Adeptus Chapters seem to exemplify. 

 

Going from the perspective of my marines; the Sanguine Blades believe that the red thirst/black rage is a gift from Sanguinius. To quote myself. 

The last gift of the Great Angel was to pass down his blade. His martial fury to his sons in hope that it could add the Emperor in his defense against the heretic, the daemon, and the xenos. These weapons are the Red Thirst and the Black Rage. 
The Red Thirst must be honed and focused to destroy mankind’s foes. The Blades work to make use of the Red Thirst. The Sanguine Blades train not  to completely suppress their flaw, but to hold it at bay when unneeded; like a blade in a sheath. When in engaged with the enemy they let the thirst drive them, pushing their martial skills. A Blade feels at home in close combat as the thirst takes hold feeling a connection with the Angel and the chapter knowing that this ties them together. 
The Black Rage is the strongest and darkest weapon. To give your life to the Death Company is to become the embodiment of the Angels fury against all that harm the Imperium and the Emperor. Those under the throes of the rage are as close to the Angel as they can be; reliving their Primarchs final moments. Those in the Death Company are revered, and by some even envied, as they are the closest a brother can be to Sanguinius. 
However, they are also pitied because the brother is lost forever. An astartes, as much as they are, can not endure the Primarch, his rage, and his sorrow long without his his mind coming apart. So the Death Company is sent into battle as the ultimate weapon of the Blades. Sent as the most destructive force the Sanguine Blades have into the heart of the enemy to find glory in battle and peace in death. 

This 'flaw' is a only one when you look at it in that light. An Astartes is born to fight and die for the Emperor and the Imperium. In a universe that is constantly finding new and more dangerous enemies, I will take whatever weapons Sanguinius and the Emperor will provide to defend their domain. 

That Brother, was an excellent read, couldn't have put it any better myself. The Flesh Tearers also have this mindset however it is more raw and bare for all to see, "making them more honest in deed than any of their kin" - Gabriel Seth

[Anver Cassiel]

dont get me wrong, never meant to say that blood angel's were inherently noble. I definitely agree that the are, as this nobility is what makes them struggle against the curse rather than give in to it or even embrace it in the wrong manner. I just think without the struggle against it, the characters would be no where near as engaging or interesting. It is through struggles and challenges that humans grow, and without the struggle against the curse i think BA would be diminished somewhat. Again though, this is just my opinion and Id never say someone shouldn't try think of a way of breaking the curse. Id applaud the effort, but the cynic in me is skeptical of one being sound enough for me to accept.

 

Cassiel

[Helias_Tancred]

I would like to believe that with great effort and mental fortitude the effects can be somewhat controlled for many years. The danger lies in times when effort and mental fortitude are depleted.

 

I wonder what the future will be? Because in the current codex they refer to the Blood Angels as a dying chapter .... Feh.

[The Red Thirst]

The future is nothing, there is only the now.

We may be dying, but seeing as how the setting is locked at 1 minute to midnight, we will live for eternity...

[Quozzo]

The future is nothing, there is only the now.

 

We may be dying, but seeing as how the setting is locked at 1 minute to midnight, we will live for eternity...

By that definition, it matters not if we have the Rage. Same (lack of) outcome right. ;)

 

I dont mind if there are singular instances of battle-brothers from an others' DIY overcoming the rage or if they are able to supress it. They obviously want to use the BA codex and dont simply want to justify why only Mephiston turned up to the battle but no successor IC can be seen. It doesnt affect the geneline and we know it is possible, although it has yet to be seen in any cannon successer, but if it was then it would be the norm and not the cool exception.

 

What I dont like to see is if the whole chapter is able to overcome, controll, or is otherwise unaffected by the Rage and the Thirst. It is a deep part of our history, rooted in our very foundations and is noted as being the reason why we adopted the codex astartes. If a chapter was just simply able to get around it then it would have been apparent in any of the numerous BA successors. Even the Lementors couldnt keep it at bay. Ridding the Rage is keeping the gain without the pain. (Did I just quote my gym instructor XD

 

What I would like to know is where to draw the line between individual exceptions in a chapter that allows those to field Meph or Lemartes and enough occurances for it to become the norm withing the chapter, and so not being able to harness it is the exception.

 

That said, I've been toying with an idea I had for a chapter with regards to the Black Rage and would like to get some opinions on it as it could lead to some discussions.

 

The chapter is, for now, called the Spartans Sanguine (original I know), they had a tragic history and lost most of thier chapter to the Rage during an epic battle, either directly becoming affected or being slain by one who was. This led to the chapter to drastically change its ways or risk becoming extinct. They view any mutation as heresy and maintain a vigorous screening process so only the very finest can become a Spartan *cough*. They rely on each other in combat so any neophytes not capable of performing is killed which has led to fewer outbreaks of the Rage, which is regarded as a chapter secret, and those few who do are killed on the spot. This results in no DC and no DCDreads, but maintains the risk that anyone of them could turn against their brothers. Anyone who is experiencing early symptoms is instead told to go out alone and bring honour to the chapter before they are needed to be slain. What say you?

[Memento Of Prospero]

You folks confuse me to the highest degree. There is but one cure for the Black Rage - and that is death before dishonour.

[Xenith]

any neophytes not capable of performing is killed which has led to fewer outbreaks of the Rage,

Any potential aspirants not capable of performing are killed, lobotomised or expelled long before they reach organ implementation stage. You don't just kill brothers for no reason, that's the whole reason the death company exists!

[ElectricPaladin]

Anyone who is experiencing early symptoms is instead told to go out alone and bring honour to the chapter before they are needed to be slain. What say you?

 

Hm. If they kick the affected brothers out and tell them to go "bring honor to the chapter" alone, isn't that basically the same as the death company, only they don't paint their armor black or group them into a unit?

 

That said, I think that sticking their fingers in their ears and singing "we don't have a death company we've cured the Rage la la la la la pay no attention to the lone Astartes walking towards the enemy and muttering to himself" is just the kind of nonsense that prideful Space Marines get up to.

[Quozzo]

@Xenith. True, but the point I was trying to get across was that the Spartans have a lower tolerance for the weak, so thier numbers rarely exceed 1/3 chapter strength. Due to all the aspirants that fail the mental tests, physical tests, soul tests that the apothecaries, librarians and chaplains impose. They are still just as susceptible to the Rage, but only recruiting the strongest willed and strongest in body means it doesnt manifast as fast, or are able to supress it for longer before succumbing to its urges. I thought it was cool concept, that a chapter who prides themselves on thier genetic purity are inflicted with the curse, but are so ashamed of it they dont even field a DC. Not out of fear of someone finding out, but due to the reminder of what the DC represent.

 

@EP. Those that are... urged to come forward have not yet succumbed to the rage. They may be experiancing the Thirst or have premonitions or flashing images while they sleep (divination libbys are big thing in the chapter). They still have their wits about them, just think it wont be for long. Yes the BA hide the Rage from outsiders, the SS hide it from themselves, although they are aware of it. A case of hiding thier head in the sand and ignorance is bliss n all, but at the same time try to purge it from their geneseed as they think its the cause.

 

Oh I forgot to mention. The geneseed of those that do succumb are not used, lest the mutation spreads.

[ChapelXIII]

@Quozzo I think that from a story telling point of view your chapter makes sense. Having a chapter that believes in a high degree of self control to sort of fight against the black rage is common concept and adding in idea of guilt for any who are not strong enough to resist it is an interesting view point. I actually really like the idea of it. When a person realizes that they are beginning to fall to the black rage the go 'lone wolf' and essentially get themselves killed before they ever make it as far as the Death Company essentially, to shamed to be around their comrades and equally their brothers view them as pariah as they have failed in the eyes of the chapter. I find it an interesting idea. 

 

That being said I know my Blades would find that chapter despicable, and would view their teachings as a horrible affront to both our Lord Sanguinius and the Emperor. To willing view the gift of the Angel as something that needs to be cut from us is to spit in his face. How any chapter could do such a thing surely a heresy.  

[ElectricPaladin]

My chapter, the Knights of Blood, also view the Black Rage as something to be controlled. They tend to fight it in two ways: channeling their aggression into a complex dueling culture and pursuing their classically Blood Angels practice of art. For the Knights of Blood, it's typically singing. Their battle songs are terrifying and their death chants are hauntingly beautiful, and they find that this kind of communal art helps to bolster their brothers' self control and keep them focused on the hear and now. However, the chapter has also become berserkers, to the point that they no longer go about armed or in power armor aboard their strike cruisers, for fear of an outbreak of violence - the dueling code helps with that, but not enough. They are also forced to rely on serfs as pilots and gunners (I actually modeled my storm raven with an IG pilot and one of my land raiders with an IG multi-melta gunner, and will do the same for my storm eagle when it arrives).

 

I've got an idea for a story where they encounter a Sororitas living saint who appears to be able to cause a deranged Death Company marine to return to sanity, but then the Knights - a typically atheist-but-ritualistic Blood Angels - have to grapple with the fact that apparently a mortal girl can call down substantial miracles from the Emperor.

 

But then, the Sororitas are a shrine world chapter, and the Knights are both excommunicated and a crusading chapter, so they willingly leave this cure behind so as to save the Sororitas from Inquisitorial sanction, even though it means leaving behind the only way they have ever found of restoring an afflicted brother to sanity...

[Rafen IX]

My chapter, the Knights of Blood, also view the Black Rage as something to be controlled. They tend to fight it in two ways: channeling their aggression into a complex dueling culture and pursuing their classically Blood Angels practice of art. For the Knights of Blood, it's typically singing. Their battle songs are terrifying and their death chants are hauntingly beautiful, and they find that this kind of communal art helps to bolster their brothers' self control and keep them focused on the hear and now. .

Hear and now? (Rolls eyes) haha :)

[ElectricPaladin]

My chapter, the Knights of Blood, also view the Black Rage as something to be controlled. They tend to fight it in two ways: channeling their aggression into a complex dueling culture and pursuing their classically Blood Angels practice of art. For the Knights of Blood, it's typically singing. Their battle songs are terrifying and their death chants are hauntingly beautiful, and they find that this kind of communal art helps to bolster their brothers' self control and keep them focused on the hear and now. .

Hear and now? (Rolls eyes) haha

Oooh... unintentional terrible pun... I am stricken. I am cut to the quick. I am slain.

[Rafen IX]

I shall resist anymore hearing puns brother, though the temptation is almost as great as the red thirst!

I very much like your chapters backstory.

[Leonaides]

Quozzo- thats also how the blood angels select their death company members. The majority of them are still in their right minds while armour is repainted etc.. its only when they hit the battlefield that the warriors finally let go.

[Quozzo]

Quozzo- thats also how the blood angels select their death company members. The majority of them are still in their right minds while armour is repainted etc.. its only when they hit the battlefield that the warriors finally let go.

Ive always thought that their squad paint their armour for them afterwards because if they could easily predict the onslaught of the Rage that accurately then they could avert most of the occurances where a brother accidently killed one of their own, or an ally. If a Spartan doesnt manage to hold on to his sanity for one last battle and succumbs then is geneseed isnt reused. Although I realize how hypocritical that sounds regarding my chapter's practices Even if that is the case then the Spartans who are about to succumb could still go out all lone wolfy and try to gain some sense of honour before it's too late, even if several of them are about to succumb at once. If they manage to live then they are slain. Or I might just not give the damned brothers an opportunity to fight one last time, but are slain regardless, by the high chaplain of the Spartans - Astofury the grimdarker

In any case, I didn't want to hijack the topic but get people's opinions about a BA successor that is still inflicted with the Rage but doesnt field a DC. Does it still retain the Blood Angely theme?

[ElectricPaladin]

Actually, the degree to which a death company marine is actually insane seems to vary. Some become completely disconnected from reality, others are only afflicted by a battle lust that makes them unreliable in combat, but may be more lucid in non-combat circumstances. The condition certainly seems to come on gradually, with the marine becoming unreliable and intermittently delusional, and they seem to degenerate over time. Keep in mind, for example, that some death company marines may see action over several battles before they need to be given the Emperor's Peace, while death company dreadnoughts need to be placed in hibernation between battles because they are completely crazed.

 

Additionally, I've seen nothing to indicate that death company marines are incapable of restraining themselves from harming their battle brothers, though one possible interpretation of "Blood Angels successors attack allied AM regiment or civilians" is the depredations of death company marines. Perhaps that's what the later stage of the condition looks like, when the marine has become completely divorced from reality.

[Memento Of Prospero]

 the marine has become completely divorced from reality.

 

www.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DRYtQMhnBtTw&ei=PwBlVL9FxMexBOi2geAM&usg=AFQjCNG8eBt64BLRcXUgeELUQSKMIQ3v6A