Drop Pods or Tanks?

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

I'm struggling with my Space Wolves, do I make them a drop pod army, a mechanized list, or do I make them a hybrid? I have an affinity for the drop pod, and the stormwolf, due to my military background [i worked with the 101st Airborne (Air Assault)], so I like the hard and fast airborne/air assault doctrine. It's hard to translate to the tabletop, given the fact that most of it doesn't start on the table, I've been burned by having my force in reserve. 

 

It's hard to know when to deep strike, and when not to. Drop pod assault gives me a chance to grab objectives, or place a meatshield, or deliver a payload of combi-melta hurt (though I don't like to use suicide squads.)

 

Recently I've been thinking along the lines of using a hybrid list, putting shooty wolf guard in razorbacks to get them up the field and give them some heavy weapon support, while slogging shooty dreads along side to provide more heavy weapons support, all the while using some kitted up grey hunters in drop pods to get out front, tear things up with shooting and then eat the charge from what's left over, hiding behind the drop pods the came in on. I also give the drop pods the deathwind launcher so I can get some template fire on hoards. 

 

I've also been toying with the idea of using an empty drop pod to get me line breaker, and for some area denial. 

 

I haven't been taking wolf guard terminators much recently, since they're expensive, and I don't have enough shooty terminators. When I do take them, I use them as a bodyguard for my HQ (Usually a Wolf Guard Battle Leader or a Wolf Lord).

 

I have been thinking of putting basic rune priests in with my wolf guard, taking divination, so I can try to get them re-rolling, so I can increase my accuracy.

 

Also, I run Champions of Fenris, because I like the idea of taking an army of elites, and I like the +1 WS to WG, WG terminators, WG pack leaders, and TWC. 

 

I'm interested to see what y'all think, because I really need help.

[GreyCrow]

The beauty of Drop Pods in the Space Marines Codex is that there's no proper way to use them and they can fit different roles !

 

First, they're obviously great at delivering units in close range for hunting a big target ! That said, a smart opponent will draw your killteams in, sacrifice their intended targets and just kill them in return fire. To be honest, because out units are so expensive and because suicide units rely on buying additional upgrades, I don't think that suicide units are cost effective in Marines lists but that's just my personal opinion and I know many have had good successes with them.

 

Secondly, they're a great deployment tool. Just because you have a Drop Pod doesn't mean you should send it in the face of the opponent, and I'd actually recommend a more cautious placement of pods and their contents. You can just place them in the No man's land or even in your deployment zone, but in a position of strength depending on how the enemy is deployed. You don't have to worry about counter deployment when you have pods !

 

Thirdly, they have the advantage in that you can choose to use only one in the list to have a deployment option, while running with tanks you want to have more than just one.

 

The big problem with Drop Pod lists is that you essentially have to have half of your army in reserves, at the expense of a great deployment flexibility. I guess that's the trade off you have to be prepared to make !

 

There isn't a "better" option between tanks and Drop Pods to be honest, to me it depends on what playstyle you like ! You can have an alpha strike with both mechanized and drop pod armies, but they play very differently. Drop Pods emphasize more close quarter combat and holding the line, while mechanized lists favour ranged warfare and maneuvrability. For Space Wolves, thanks to the ability to take 2 special weapons (can they take them still ?) per Grey Hunter squad, Drop Pods are a very effective tool, more than with regular Marines for an army wide.

 

I think both can be really viable, I guess it depends on what you like to play the most :)

[bjoluemblem]

I run both styles of lists from C:SM, so the general pieces apply to C:SW as well. For me, it depends on what you want your units to do. If you can hit hard enough with an alpha strike to do some serious damage, the drop pods are the way to go. If you want to hold the middle of the field and just make it yours, a rhino/razor rush style build would be fine. Just be prepared for the possibility that all of your vehicles could be wrecked by turn 4-5. I play against shooty tau and varieties of eldar, so being able to alpha strike wave serpents, broadsides, crisis teams, etc. makes it mostly drop pods for me. I can't reliably get my troops where I want them to go due to the intense amount of S7 shooting. If it's marines vs marines, either works admirably, but against gunlines, it's difficult to not justify drop pods. An interesting list would be 3 pods and 3 rhinos/razors, do a little bit of both backline to midfield and mild alpha strike to remove nasty elements. I like flooding the field with the same type of thing, so I prefer either all drop pods or all rhino rush. If I were to make a list at ~1750 points out of the Great Company, I would do a mini TWC group with HQs and Iron Priests and such, then drop pods to fill in points. Regardless, my advice is to play what you like best, and most of all, have fun with it!

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

I like both, and they definitely have some benefits that I like, the ability to deploy troops forward of my DZ is great, and the ability to move up the field fast is definately a plus. I'm kinda thinking of using razorbacks and my land raider to move my elites up the field behind my dropped in grey hunters, using my wolf guard as QRF. Or using my Grey hunters to take objective points, and eat any thing that tries to get close. and using deathwind launchers to make a nuisance out of the drop pod, so that my opponent has to take them out, or get templated to death, that means turns of not shooting at my Grey Hunters, turns they get to shoot at the other units. It also means that if he ignored them, and goes for the grey hunters, I have templates to shoot at his units. It also means I have objective secured, because it's a troops choice. So he has to take it out to get the objectives. The Razorbacks let me get some heavy weapons into my wolf guard units, which otherwise lack in heavy firepower, and I can get my razorbacks in to support my Grey Hunters with their heavy guns, and stormbolters or combi-weapons. In larger lists I can back this up with my Jump guard, to get some QRF up the board even quicker. 

 

Does this sound like sound planning?

[Hellios]

Have you ever used a Deathstorm droppod?

 

I don't play a droppod force, but I do have an all Deepstriking Deathwing force, including dreadnoughts in droppods, and Deathstorm droppods... Now, my game plan is a little different because I'm using the Droppod Assault rule and the Deathwing Assault rule, but it is a rare game where I get no utility from my Deathstorm droppods (which I normally put in first, before the rest of my army). They can be dangerous to your own units, but proper spacing (so deploying units where aren't going straight ton the front line), and deploying tough units like dreadnoughts  who don't care about the whirlwind blasts, can negate most of the danger.

 

I find it is an excellent unit for softening up your Landing zone.

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

I have never used a deathstorm drop pod. I'll agree that it sounds scary. I don't have the models for it, and that's kinda of a thing I have, I don't like proxying (something that was ingrained in me by the Auburn Hills Games Workshop). I don't have an all deep strike force, and I've had the drop pod assault bite me in the rear too many times, to rely on it for much. I like the idea of putting some heavy ordinance in my opponent's backfield, and muddying up the lines, since I like unconventional warfare. I'll gie that some serious thought. 

 

Please Keep the suggestions rolling. As I need more Ideas.

[Brother Navaer Solaq]

if you already have a land raider and razorback stick with a tank army.

 

Drop pods used in single suicide unit is not effective use of marine resource. Hybrid list has not been effective in my experience. mileage varies within this community.

 

I would suggest you do the following.

1. play several games using only tanks

2. play several games using only drop pods

 

3. create a list using both drop pods and tanks from your experience.

Otherwise stick to one form of transportation. I would use a lone drop pod as a suicide unit if I have points to spare in larger games (2000+ pts)

 

deathstorm drop pods are great support units in a drop pod army.

[Ming]

Drop pod armies have to be hard hitting on the first turn and resilient too!  it is a hard math / logistics equation.  

 

For example, in the first wave, each unit needs to be able to have the tools to each take out or severely damage a high-value target.  Sternguard with 6 combi-meltas.  Tacs with  MM, MG, and CMG (or PG, CPG, MM).  dual HF dreads with missile upgrades. The pods themselves have to add in the firepower with deathwind launchers.  The minimum starting point would be 5 pods.  Beyond these assault units, they need to be accompanied by characters that support them - such as providing cover saves, FNP saves, etc., and can add to the first turn damage output.  Second wave pods also need to be as deadly.  In a 1650 game, expect to be able to emplace 5-7 units in your total assault.  Having a character that improves your ability to call in reserves also helps.  

 

If you don't have 5 pods (like me), you can forge a narrative with support units starting in your deployment zone who could also have arrived by pod, or use skimmers.  Then add in a flyer for air support.  

 

Right now, marine pod armies are all the rage in my neck of the woods.  None go all-pod though, probably because it could get boring.  

 

Played vs a 6-dread spacewolf army this weekend - three were delivered by pod.  They were supported by a Spartan and the SW flyer with hellfrost cannon.  I only survived because the opponent became cautious and I picked him apart, and that his dreads did not have the damage output needed vs large squads, before the squads could close and either melta them or go HTH and krak them.  

 

Good luck!

[ElectricPaladin]

So, when I first started playing, I really wanted drop pods to be good. The idea of drop pods was just way too awesome. Who doesn't love armored reentry pods crashing down amongst the enemy? The thing is, in actual play, drop pods have two serious problems:

 

1. Over-extension. Once a unit is out among the enemy, it is isolated and in danger. If they don't fulfill their tactical objective in one round, they're just dead meat. Tank transports are different, because they move as unit towards the enemy, forcing your opponent to pick a target. You can mitigate this by trying to spam a truly heroic number of drop pods, but that opens you to problem #2...
2. Inflexibility. You get to deploy flexibly, but that's it. Once the pod has hit the ground, it's not going anywhere, and the dudes inside have to hoof it.

 

As I don't own enough drop pods to do the all-drop pod army effectively, I've ended up going the tanks route instead, and it matches my playstyle.

 

I've got to say, I think that drop pods work best as an all-or-nothing tactic. They also work best with things that can be effective on the move - like dreadnoughts or terminators - so that if you suffer a mishap or a deviation or misplace your pod, the unit inside can still contribute as it slogs across the board.

[knife&fork]

Maelstrom made pod heavy armies much less viable. When you only had end game scoring you knew which objectives to concentrate on and what you needed to control at the end of the game in order to win. 

 

Pods are still good and useful units, but a combined approach makes for a stronger list. 

[Ming]

Played a game tonight with my 3-pod list, which also has 2 other legs - a vehicle leg and a skimmer/flyer leg.  So my three-legged barstool of a list survived a fight with the Tau, 11-7 in points.  Of the three pods and three squads plus warlord that dropped in on the table, one damaged pod, the warlord, and 2 squad remnants survived after dropping in the middle of the Tau gunline.  It was crazy time, considering the Tau had first turn, and I lost the heavy weapons from one dev squad right off the bat! At the end, only an immobile Tau tank and a damaged riptide were still on the table.  

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

So I've been playing around with battlescribe, building lists with what I have. The only problem is, I don't get any rules like deathwing assault, where I can choose to bring my termies in turn 1. I have to wait until turn 2. Also, I have formations, 2 that aren't SC spam, that I can take. Voidclaws manipulate reserve rolls and come on turn 1. I also have the Wolf Guard thunderstrike, which has terminators and power armour wolf guard in a drop pod. This comes in as one unit. This is backing up 2 pods full of Melta grey hunters. Backing up all of this is a stormwolf full of terminators. This is a sum total of ~2k points. At games higher than this, I bring JumpGuard (5 man CM squads) and Land Speeder tempests. This whole list is deep striking, but 2 pods come on first turn. Unfortunately, that's not enough bodies on the table turn 1, and my reserves could get delayed by bad rolls. I know I need 4 more drop pods, 3 for my dreads, and one as a deathstorm. 

 

Now, the drop pod is open topped, so can you keep a unit inside for a turn to keep them protected? The unit can still shoot out, but they get some protection from the pods AV12 right? Or do I want to disembark immediately? 

[bjoluemblem]

Drop pods unfortunately make you disembark immediately, it would be cool if it didn't, but so it is. I don't have either the SW codex or the Great Company at hand, so I don't know the restrictions on it. You will usually deepstrike half your pods rounding up, so if there are no restrictions on that, you can drop 4 on turn one outside of formations. Also, I believe you can buy fast attack drop pods for your terminators/other units to fill in where they're needed.

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

One of the Formations I can run is the wolf guard thunderstrike, which is a drop pod full of Power Armour WG, and a unit of deepstriking WG terminators. They come in at the same time, but, and here's the question that no one seems able to answer, Does that drop pod count towards your drop pod assault, and if it does, can the whole formation come in first turn? The consensus among my community is yes, since the terminators are essentially teleporting in off the drop pod (like a homing beacon) once it lands. That would let me get 4 units on the table first turn, since I get 2 drop pods full of guys, VoidClaws, and a unit of shooty terminators. Rules as Written are vague on the subject so some clarification would be nice. 

[Hellios]

One of the Formations I can run is the wolf guard thunderstrike, which is a drop pod full of Power Armour WG, and a unit of deepstriking WG terminators. They come in at the same time, but, and here's the question that no one seems able to answer, Does that drop pod count towards your drop pod assault, and if it does, can the whole formation come in first turn? The consensus among my community is yes, since the terminators are essentially teleporting in off the drop pod (like a homing beacon) once it lands. That would let me get 4 units on the table first turn, since I get 2 drop pods full of guys, VoidClaws, and a unit of shooty terminators. Rules as Written are vague on the subject so some clarification would be nice. 

 

I can't swear for on it, but I think you can do that. I've seen crazier things.

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

A friend of mine has been helping me with my list, and I'll probably be getting 2 more drop pods, as well as another vindicator, and some long fangs. That will allow me to drop all 3 of my dreadnoughts, and both my squads of grey hunters. The way he has my dreads set up, they're a heavy flamer alfa strike, and would be disgusting against hordes. But if I'm not facing a horde, what do I equip the dreads with for an alfa strike? I'm backing this whole thing up with the Grey Hunters and they're packing meltas, so I can kill my opponent's toys. at larger point games I'll be flying some termies in on a Stormwolf, and using my stormfang to back them up with some air support. I'd like some Ideas on how to get some use out of my jump guard and wolf guard. 

 

I really like the benefits of having +1 WS, and tons of elites slots. I want to use my wolf guard as additional shooting support, and I guess I put them in razorbacks, to scoot them around the field. I probably also should keep my assault terminators in my land raider so I can assault and rip and tear.

 

What do you think?

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

I just acquired some more stuff for my wolves, another dreadnought, brining my total to 4, and a standard land raider. This makes me tank heavy now, which I'm fine with. It was too good a deal to pass up, even though I hadn't planned on going for tanks. 

 

The way the troops were set up in the list my friend built were melta squads. And I like that, since 3 melta shots should wreck a light vehicle in one go. and bolters can glance out a light vehicle. The great thing about space wolves is I don't have to worry about losing an attack for not charging, since all of my infantry get counter-attack. So I think it's best for me to use close combat defensively, and try hard to stay out of CC for as long as possible, and maximize my time shooting at my opponent. And use my fire to take out light vehicles and transports. 

 

On the other hand, I like the Drop Dread Alfa Strike, because I can tailor it for killing infantry (heavy flamers) or armour (Multi Melta) depending on what I'm facing. Which is fine if I know what I'm facing. But the thing is I don't always know what I'm facing, and I need an all comers list. I like using dreadnoughts, especially for fire support. and I'd like to use 2 assault cannon/heavy bolter dreads for infantry support, while using 2 plasma cannon dreads for long range fire support.

 

So How is the best way to get my dreads to the fight?

 

I've Decided that I will be getting 2 more drop pods, and 2 units of long fangs. I just don't know about the vindicator. Perhaps I'll just proxy it with my predator for a while.