Terminator Wing Armies

[Frostmourne]

Hi.

 

After looking a lot at A Sigismund led 1st Company list I have also started looking at other Legiois Termies and thinking of a Legion wing style list.

 

So, with hints like Firedrakes, Gorgons, Phoenix Guard among others. In day 2.5k can. Termie wing army feasibly work? It supported by relevant units and armour?

[Slips]

Yes, they can. But, its just as you said. They need support. What that means is that you're using a Spartan/Land Raider, Storm Eagle, Kharybdis Assault Claw or a Caestus Assault ram as transports. So, they WILL be points heavy and WILL need support.

 

That said, they can work and due to them being points dense, won't break the bank as much as say, 4 20 man tactical squads would.

 

However, it requires a RoW which means a Legion Character or a Preator. Not Cheap and is pretty much a one-dimensional beatstick character. And, if you wanted to, you could run Terminator MSU using Land Landraiders. Though that wont make you any friends anytime soon xD

 

Of the Legions Available to you, SoH with Abaddon, Imperial Fists, Night Lords and Iron Warriors with Perturabo are the most flexible in terms of deploying terminators since they're the only ones who can Deepstrike them. Though, the above list of potential vehicles is nothing to scoff at.

 

 

•Legion Generic Terminators. Very Flexible units, not as pricey as one would expect. However, upgrades can stack up quick and inflate their cost. Couple in the fact that you may want a transport for them and the cheapest one available is the Dreadclaw at 100 points and can only hold 5.

 

-If you want them to footslog, safest bet would be Cataphractii terminators due to their 4+ save. Give them 2 Reaper Autocannons bare minimum and keep the power weapons as a mix n' match of Axes, Swords and Mauls and Combi-Bolters to keep them cheap. Such a Squad can provide decent fire support while remaining relatively cheap. For more flexibility in terms of what they can tackle, give them Combi-Weapons. If you know you'll be facing a lot of light infantry, Volkite Chargers wouldn't be a bad idea. If your giving them a vehicle, I'd personally recommend Tartaros/Indomitus for more Mobility once outside.

 

-For Assault focused Squads, Heavy Flamers would be a good idea but if you want them to be a 2+ armor save hunting unit, Plasma Blasters are a better bet. Lightning Claws are the same and you can, if you wanted to, give everyone in the Squad a Chainfist if you know you'll be up against a lot of Armor/Vehicles. I'd only recommend Thunderhammers if you knew you were up against MC's or Multi-wound non-unwieldy units/characters. Power Fists are power fists. Grenade Harness is "meh" to me, not worth it.

 

•Phoenix Guard Terminators. VERY Expensive for 5 terminators. Being nearly 100 points more than a Generic Unit. They make up for it in all having 2 attacks base, WS5 on the Sarge. They all have a Power Lance/Spear so on the Charge all hit with S6 Ap2 and 3 attacks without any other modifiers. I'm not too familiar with them but, their Living Icon rule would help other EC units locked in Combat if they are close by. Treat them as Assault Terminators. They don't have deepstrike so an Assault Vehicle is near mandatory due to their cost. They also have pretty amazing models.

 

•Tyrant Siege Terminators. Combi-Bolter + Power Fist (with option for Chain Fist) Terminators all with Cyclone Missile Launchers. All come in Cataphractii Terminator armor and the Sarge has an Omni-Scope for Nightvision and Split Fire. Use them as a Fire Support unit.

 

•Gorgon Terminators. Same as a Generic Terminator Squad though they can take Graviton Guns instead of Plasma Blasters and no Option for Volkite Chargers. Sarge is stuck with a Thunderhammer. They all come stock with a Power Axe stock. Can only take Claws or Fists (both kind) instead of Axes. No other Options. Their only unique trait is their Blinding Rule. Other Iron Hands units can do what they do better, imo.

 

•Red Butchers. Cataphractii Armor. Everyone has 2 Attacks, sarge has 3. They all have a Power axe and Combi-Bolter but can exchange the Bolter for a Second Power Axe Free. With BS2 This is a good idea. Sarge can also take 2 Power/Chain Fists or Thunderhammers. Lightning Claws are only available in the Dual Option. Also have 2 Wounds.

 

•Deathshroud Terminators. HQ or Elites choice. All have Hand Flamers with Chem Munitions and Power Scythes. Great Tarpit Clearers. Pretty self Explanatory as to their use. Have 2 Wounds and 2 Attacks base.

 

•Grave Warden Terminators. Only Heavy Support Terminators. Come stock with a Power Fist and Grenade Launcher. Only other CC weapons options are Chain Fists but sarge also has the option for a Deathshroud Scythe. 'Nade launcher can only be swapped for a Combi-Bolter or 1 in 5 can take a Heavy Flamer with Chem Munitions. Launchers are all assault 2 or Assault 1 template using Death Cloud mode. 2 Attacks base.

 

•Justaerin Terminators. VERY VERY Expensive for a unit starting at 3. Only Terminators able to take Multi-Meltas instead of Plasma Blasters. Otherwise just standard Terminators. Can be taken as Troops, Elites or part of an HQ Bodyguard.

 

•Firedrake Terminators. Stock with Combi-Bolter and Power Weapon. Have to pay extra for Thunderhammer + Shield. Luckily not as expensive as other legions or generics. Have 2 wounds. No Lightning Claw options. Sarge can only take a Combi-Flamer/ Combi-Melta or Storm Shield instead of Bolter. Other Weapon options are Chain/Power Fists. Only they and Imperial Fists have access to Storm Shields. Salamanders Shields, however, only boots Invulnerable saves by +1. Not a Flat 3++ like Imperial Fists. Though they are cheaper.

 

•Larnean Terminators. Cataphractii Armored. Come stock with a Power Axe and Volkite Charger. Can only take Power or chain fists otherwise. 1 in 5 can take Heavy Flamer, Plasma Blaster or, surprisingly enough, a Conversion Beamer. So, counter-intuitively, they make for pretty great fire support units if at the max range of the conversion beamer. Though all their other weapons are a maximum range of 15". Still trying to wrap my head around these because paying so much for only 2 conversion beamers don't seem worth it since they aren't effective if you put them in terminator range but conversely, the rest of their gear does nothing in Conversion Beamer "sweet spot" ranges.

 

 

So, yes. Terminator Wing armies can be made to work but need very specific support elements to make up for whatever they can't handle effectively. And since you'll want to put most of the Assault Focused ones inside a Transport, they become the most limiting ones to build a list around. 

 

Consider the Legion Options and Some Generic Terminator Builds you were thinking about and post about them. We'll probably be able to help you build a list around them.

[Memento Of Prospero]

You forgot FnP on gorgons! The only real benefit they have ;)

[Frostmourne]

Wow, Sliptstreams as always you are awesome.

But here is breaking it down a bit.

Im either thinking..

Sallies, so a Praetor in some Termi armour, with drakes, in a Store Eagle. Supported by Pyroclasts holding the middle group and maybe some heavies, armour and Dreads at the back.

Emp Children, full on attacking force led my Eidolon and some Palantine Blades, with a few medium sized squads of Phoenix Guard. Supported by fast jetbikes, a Fire Raptor and some kakophoni because they literally rock.

Sigismund (As you well know i like this army), with some Templars, in a Spartan, some Cataphractii termies holding the middle ground, some heavyies and armour and Dreadsa at the back, probably with a fortification.

Death Guard i am not really sure about. I am a massive Death Guard fan in 40k, and love their aesthetic in 30k, just not sold on THEM really, but probably a really defensive playing army.

World Eaters and Iron Hands are probably out of the question, as have danced to their tunes before.

Iron Warriors i am coming more and more in tune with, but not enough to make me want to do them just yet.

To be honest, i am torturing myself. As natually i am a really defensive tough as all balls player. 40k, Fantasy, i always play low model count but tough to crack. Yeah i dont win all the time, but i win enough to make me happy.

But with 30k, i wanted a more rapid, thrusting strike of an army, with the upper hand in CC, just not sure thats possible without having withdrawal symptoms :P

[Frostmourne]

Im now looking at Eidolon with Some Palantine Blades with JP,

2 units of PG in Dreadclaws.

2 units of vets geared similar to 40k Tac squads, some heavy Culvins, Sicarans and a couple of Dreads.

[Sanct]

•Phoenix Guard Terminators. VERY Expensive for 5 terminators. Being nearly 100 points more than a Generic Unit. They make up for it in all having 2 attacks base, WS5 on the Sarge. They all have a Power Lance/Spear so on the Charge all hit with S6 Ap2 and 3 attacks without any other modifiers. I'm not too familiar with them but, their Living Icon rule would help other EC units locked in Combat if they are close by. Treat them as Assault Terminators. They don't have deepstrike so an Assault Vehicle is near mandatory due to their cost. They also have pretty amazing models.

 

 

2 attacks base is standard for terminators.  The Phoenix power spear is a two handed power lance with ap2/3.  So they're S5 ap2 with 3 attacks on the charge. Otherwise they're S4 ap3 with 2 attacks.

This makes an assault vehicle almost mandatory and against equal points in terminators they might break them on the first round but they will die in subsequent rounds.

They look really great (I like tartaros but itn't any different to regular terminator armour- hell the update removed any mention of it in their wargear) and have a devastating charge against almost anything.  Points-wise you're better taking palatines or regular terminators.

[Slips]

Alright. Lets try and get some List Cores ideas focusing on what you want : Tough units with an upper hand in CC with low/no mobility issues.

 

Salamanders:

-Preator; Cataphractii Armor, Mantle of the elder Drake (Eternal Warrior), Storm Shield (the 4+ turns into a 3+ because of the shield. The shield doesnt give a 3+ just a better invulnerable by 1), Paragon Blade or Thunderhammer.

 

-Primus Medicae; Cataphractii Armor, Mantle (if you can take it), Storm Shield, Weapon of your choice

 

-Firedrake Terminators x8. Pretty sure everyone here has TH/SS but its up to you.

 

•Sadly, I don't think they can take Storm Eagles as dedicated transports so it will have to take a Fast Attack Slot.

•A unit like this gives you 3 Characters in the squad to take challenges how you wish and gives an already tough Terminator Squad FNP (5+) Though this jacks up the Cost A LOT.

 

Heads up. You will see me recommend a Primus Medicae in pretty much all my suggestions. A VERY good unit and a nice way to also take more Legion Specific Gear, FNP for Terminators that don't have it and another Challenge Taker if needed.

 

Emperors Children:

-Eidolon

 

-Palatine Blades x10, 10x Phoenix Spears, Jump Packs, Sonic Shriekers, Melta Bombs. VERY EXPENSIVE SQUAD. But, on the Charge, they are near guaranteed to wipe out anything they come into contact with due to S6 AP2 Weapons at I6/7. Sarge Has melta bombs as Vehicle Insurance. You could also give these a Primus Medicae too.

 

-Phoenix Terminators x10, Sonic Shriekers. Either a Spartan, Caestus, Kharybdis or Storm Eagle to taste. They all cost 200+ so weigh your options. Personally, I'd go for the Spartan and with the Extra Space add a Primus Medicae. They can't shoot so making them tougher is paramount. If you have the points/cash, 2 squads might be good enough to give your opponent have a tough time deciding between these 2 and Eidolon + PB.

 

The rest of the list is to be built as Fire Support since these units are melee gods you probably wont need any more CC options. For Tac Vets like you're thinking, give them a VERY Specific role to accomplish or they will cost A LOT.

 

If you take a Primus Medicae for either the PG or PG (why not both?), give him a Phoenix Spear, Sonic Shrieker and Melta Bombs.

 

Imperial Fists:

-Sigismund (Pride of the Legion?)

 

-Primus Medicae: Artificer Armor, Solarite Power Gauntlet (not really necessary but I like it :p), Melta Bombs

 

-Primus Medicae : Terminator Armor (either Cataphractii or Tartaros/Indomitus depending on what you choose later on), Vigil Pattern Storm Shield, Solarite Power Gauntlet.

 

-Templarx8, Nuncio-Vox, Vexilla, Champion with Solarite Power Gauntlet, Melta Bombs. Land Raider Phobos for Cost or Spartan if you can fit it in. Everyone in this squad will be striking at I5 on the Charge due to Sigismunds rule. He will be hitting at I6, however :p

 

-Terminator Squads to taste, Perferably 1 or 2, one squad having all Storm Shields and a CC Focus. To keep cost down, Cataphractii Armor, though Tartaros is better due to mobility edge. Attach Terminator PM to the SS Squad. Give them all teleportation transponders so that, if needed, can Deepstrike no-scatter within 6" of your templar if they need help.

 

Death Guard

-Calas Typhon

-Deathshroud Terminator Body Guard (they don't take up a FoC Slot) However, can't take any dedicated transports at above 5 men if I'm not mistaken. Take Melta bombs since its free :P To give them a Spartan, it requires a Heavy Support Slot.

 

-Grave Warden Terminators x10, 2 Heavy Flamers, Spartan with Armored Ceramite, Flare Shields, Heavy Flamer (pintle and hull) chem Munitions. Takes up a Heavy Support Slot. Give the Sarge a Power Scythe.

 

Add 2 5 man Deathshroud Squads in Land Raider Phobos' for Minimum Troops. If you do this, however, you're left with 80 points to play with in a 2.5k Army. So....don't do it unless you're playing 3k Plus armies hehe. 

 

I will skip Iron Warriors since I'm not comfortable recommending anything. That said, the above gives you some very tough squads in fast moving Vehicles. Remember, where I recommend a Land Raider Phobos or Spartan, you can easily substitute those with Storm Eagles, Caestus Assault Rams or Kharybdis Assault Claws if you want more mobility since these are all flyers. 

 

I wouldn't run anything but a Storm Shield Squad at 5 men. The Cost of Legion Specific Terminators is so high (as is Geared up Generics) that getting the most bang for your buck with each squad is paramount. Since we pay a Premium for Minimum Sized squads and a reduced cost on a per-marine basis when adding onto squads, it better to take, FLS (fewer larger squads) than it is to take MSU.

 

Pretty much all of these choices will play the same. Terminators are inherently not so shooty and more Assault Focused. What will make or break your list is how you decide to support them. If you go slower but tougher, think about units like Jetbikes, Fire Raptors and the like.

 

If you go for Faster over Tougher (Storm Eagles Primarily) take more ground-based heavy fire power for Target saturation.

 

...Thats all I've got. Anyone else, feel free to pitch in and help me out. I, by no means, know the most :p

[Frostmourne]

Thanks man, you broke that down well again.

Ok yeah, Phoenix Guard in a Storm Eagle is awesome, as thats kind of how i imagine them rocking up anyway, means scrap the Dreadclaws and take this awesome Eagle.

Also, telling me that Palantine Blades can all have Phoenix Spears just made me nurse a Semi.

I love the Firedrake list too, but, after my friends getting really sick, and me getting really bored, of my unkillable Plague list, i think i should go for something with my thrust than parry.

Storm Eagles stilll good right?

[Slips]

Yeah, solid unit if used as transports and as follow up support unit for the transportees. If not used that way, the Fire Eagle outshines them due to it being a pure Dakka machine.

 

Apparently a big P.I.T.A to put together though :p

[Frostmourne]

Yeah iv heard this, i wonder if the Fire Raptor is better as its a newer kit, then i can just ignore weapon options :P

[Slips]

I wouldn't do it since it doesn't have a front ramp and would take more work to make it look like a storm eagle than to just buy one and do it.

[Frostmourne]

Oh yeah true, balls.

[Galron]

I am currently running a quasi terminator wing for my Iron Warriors. Fluffwise it works well as well as giving me much less troopers to paint than my Night Lords(drop assault). Weirdly enough Night Lords have the Atramentar(sp?) which are mentioned in the fluff as being a bunch of badasses, they have Sevatar who is the "Master of the Atramentar"(yet doesn't wear terminator armor)  but they have no special unit called the "Atramentar". I figured having that unit would have been a no brainer, but oh well, I digress.

 

So I bring a heavy list, currently consisting of two normal terminator squads(one plasma, one dakka), two Tyrant squads, and a missile launcher havoc squad, everything else is heavy armor, Spartans, sicarian, Caestus, Glaive. Its a fairly heavy wall of fire with almost everyone in 2-/4++ armor. Even the rhino has a havoc launcher. The Tyrants plod up the board, pouring out missiles of whatever flavor is needed(20 frag small blasts :) ) The Havocs hunt whoever and act as anti-air and intercept with their aug scanner. Might be worth adding apothacaries with aug scanners to the tyrant squads. Will have to test that.

 

The hardest part of this list is deployment of the two normal terminator squads. One rides in the Spartan, and the other in the Caestus. In the Caestus the goal is to get on the ground ASAP and unload plasma into something nasty. The dakka squad is almost a case of "Do I even want to transport them?" which I suppose comes down to what I am playing against. This is also where the HQ "Shatterblade" special character rides with so I guess the answer is to whoever he needs to get in combat with or if he needs protection.

 

I honestly don't see a point to many of the special terminator units. They tend to be over priced for what they bring, looking at you Justaerian. A couple that provide an extra wound or in the tyrant's, case massive firepower, bring something to the table, and even then, they might not be the most efficient but certainly fun. I still haven't figured out where the Lemerians fit in. They have a confusing mix of weapons that do not fit any real role. I think for most legions that get the option for special terminators, a standard terminator or command squad are better buys and more points efficient.

[Still Standing]

I love terminators of all stripes, so decided my second 30k army would be a Death Guard terminator army.  Here is what my list consists of at the moment.

 

Mortarion (LoW)

Calas Typhon

10 Death Shroud

10 Cataphractii w/ 2 Heavy Flamers, 8 Combi-Flamers, 7 Power Fists, 2 Chain Fists, 1 Scythe, Chem Munitions

10 Cataphractii w/ 2 Heavy Flamers, 8 Combi-Flamers, 7 Power Fists, 2 Chain Fists, 1 Scythe, Chem Munitions

10 Grave Wardens w/ 2 Heavy Flamers, 8 Grenade Launchers, 1 Scythe

Contemptor w/ 2x Kheres Assault Cannons

 

The army is intended to be Mortarion's elite cadre of murderers on Istvaan 3.  It's fluffy as hell, does exactly what Death Guard are supposed to do (walk slowly forwards through a hail of fire and beat the crap out of anybody if they get there), but has one fundamental flaw.  It just does not work.

[Hesh Kadesh]

@Llothlian; No advance move. No infiltrate, no scout, no deep strike, no transport. As you said, it's completely fluffy, but suffers serious gameplay deficits, that hampers your shooting, assuming a 24" move, means that you can only actually assault by Turn 4 - or even later if your opponent knows what he's doing. Sure, Morty can get close with his 10" Jumps, but that just leaves him prime for a ganking.

 

Aside from that, your shooting is limited to 20 Bolter shots (0.111 kill per shot), so over 4 turns, in best case scenario, is 120 shots, or 12 dead models. A Contemptor (Mortis?) provides pretty much your only ranged AT and reasonably capable AA options - and if it's got a name, should be replaced with "My name is target practise" for Lascannon/Haywire. At least one more would fix that.

 

The amount of flamers you have is sheer overkill, although I applaud your orthodoxy to theme. Most will be unable to fire due to intervening friendlies, and being monofaceted is not what a 300pt Terminator unit needs to be (short ranged, melee only AT, SnP especially). You need some range capability, and >AP3 templates or S6 Grenades just don't cut it. A couple of Reapers to kill LA, a couple of Forgelord Terminators with Graviton Guns and Rad Grenades for some thematic light AT to help with HP stripping, and Deathstorm Krak pods, or some Rapier batteries with Graviton Cannons/Laser Destroyers for a little help with AT.

 

You've also got a Primarch at 2K points. At that point, you're playing a 1500pt list with an approximately 120% multiplier versus a 2K list, IoW, 1800pts v 2000pts.

 

Grave Wardens already have a Flame Template, and Deathshrouds S3 Flamers blow donkeys, despite Shred. If you were doing fluffy, I'd thought 7 was the better number?

 

Without vehicles, Aircraft lose their potency. Sure, Fire Raptors can put out a lot of firepower, but without AP3 models (which you can stick in cover) they're not the threat they used to be.

[defl0]

The Iron fist termies seem the strongest point per point. Plus there is something that screams awesome about yellow termies.