Helbrutes: Making them work

[Iron_Within]

Helbrutes, have been (IMO) blasted with being the midfield of mediocre in the Chaos Space Marine Codex (which in itself is put as mediocre, so it's like a double dose of 'meh'). I've been trying to use them to get them to work and so I thought we'd create a thread detailing what people find works for them. Note this is not for tournament players or super competitive as these things don't exist in our codex

(I will update this first post with the best examples for late readers)

Anyway. Lets start with the strengths:

+ Cheap Av12

+ able to potentially put out double firepower

+ able to get rage.

+ effectively immune from Shaken and Stunned results

+ Wide variety of options.

Weaknesses:

- Slow footslogger

- You can lose control of it - it can run when you want it to shoot and shoot when you want it to run.

- Can be fragile to being glanced to death.

Effectively we need to maximise the strengths while mitigating the weaknesses to make an effective unit.

The unit also has access to formation options:

- Mayhem pack:

3 Helbrutes that can Deep Strike together but act separately with IWND but roll on the crazy table each turn (so are more unreliable)

- Helcult

1 Helbrute with 2 units of fearless Cultists it can use for cover saves (on 3+) and the cultists themselves are fearless

- Helfist Murderpack

5 Helbrutes in a single formation with one as the Champion, who gains a 5++ and they can choose their crazy results (per model not for the unit).

REMOVED IMO you should never take a Helbrute outside these formations, as they each mitigate an element of the negatives from which the Helbrute suffers. After discussion while running Helbrutes in the FOC does not have the special rules gained in the formations, Elites is not a crowded slot like FA and HS and a 100-120 unit isn''t a massive points sink in 2000 points games. I personally would still not recommend it however others in this thread have found purpose for the Elites slot lone Helbrute.

A Helbrute should IMO ideally be taking as part of target overload tactics - meaning Helbrutes are supported by every other unit to create redundancy in your army, allowing you to continue to hurt the enemy whatever happens. Particularly in our army with have a great availability of AV12 Vehicles along with the Helbrute. 10 vehicles is not easy to destroy over the course of the game save for very competitive lists, and each slot in the FOC can take a vehicle somewhere.

The load out of your brutes depends massively upon which role you want it to perform. Big note though; don't spend too many points on it, it's likely going to die before the game ends. Always take the combi bolter if you can, 5 pts means that weapon destroyed isn't so devastating. Try to take a CCW and gun, you don't want a gun brute charging, so you want it to do something in melee. While many will take straight melta and fist is a good option for cheapness there is something to be said for the Plasma Cannon, particularly against MEQ and TEQ. Fire frenzy with a Brute with Plasma Cannons and laugh. At some point I want to test a Murderfist pack with Plasma Cannons (maybe M.launchers as well) as choosing your result is big and clever.

Currently I have tried out the Mayhem pack the most so I will be talking about that.

The Mayhem pack is good for rush lists, when you have Maulerfiends at the front and then Helbrutes at the back and sides this can ruin your opponents battleplan. Helbrutes can also teleport onto objectives, however in terms of taking an objective this is less than ideal due to it's likelihood of it running off of it. The ideal position for a Helbrute is within 12" range this means even if it rolls high on it's crazy table it can still shoot rather than have to run at the enemy. Bit note; don't rely on the Helbrute to do what you want, it will not, have a vague idea what you want it to do, so for example dropping a brute next to a Basilisk it's going to shoot it either way on teleport but after that it could charge, as long as it can get into range of a charge the Basilisk is still dead. Beyond that, it will just it should be just left to rampage through the backfield doing what it wants. Effectively it should be a big distraction from your units taking objectives and from the opponent taking his objectives as 3 in the backfield is just too much to ignore.

More later

Helcults

The primary benefit of the Helcult comes in the form of the cultists surrounding the Helbrute. While the Helcult is a larger points sink than a single brute try not to think of it this way. Instead think of it as a way of gaining ablative armour on the Helbrute along with 2 units of fearless Cultists that become even better if the brute dies. Cultists in this formation do not gain Objective Secured however, leave that to other units unless you don't have a choice. What this formation gives is two big tarpit units that will ruin the day of any Wraithknight. The Helbrute has the protection to actually perform a firesupport role without dying should an autocannon look at it funny. I would recommend taking a Plasma Cannon personally for this formation, the cannon is good and solid and can walk up into enemy guns. Like everything in CSM no unit is an island and neither is this, the formation will screen other units and can bubblewrap units against units who want to get close to those that don't.

[DarkApostleMazadrin]

In the past ive ran 2 not in a formatiom with just a multi melta but i use mine to provide saturation for my defiler/land raider

[Iron_Within]

How do you manage with the range issue of the Multi Melta? I like it when DS'ing but if I'm out of that range I want something like the Plasma Cannon (ideally) to continue reaching out.

[DarkApostleMazadrin]

I just keep walking forwards with him

[Strazhakov]

I really like the Helbrute model and I've been thinking about a Mayhem Pack with Plasma Cannons and Power Scourges. Going crazy with Plasma is always fun plus I really like the Scourge.

[Chaeron]

Dataslate options, say either the Helcult or Helfist Murderpack, could have potential use.

[Sheesh Mode]

I put a lot of use into the Helcult. The Helbrute is only there to force my opponent to take my cultists seriously. No one likes 35 models backed by a dreadnought advancing on their flanks, it's a pressure movement that slowly closes the noose around the opposition's neck. 

[Iron-Daemon Forge]

I'll get this topic added to the pin tactical topic.

 

I like useing the Helbrute, from my FW Iron Warriors to the classic metal Dreadnought from 2nd ed.  In the past few games when I've use them.  I'd mainly have my Helbrute & Obliterators support each other, act as my fire base in my army & help each other out in combat & always moving forward.  Unless it Emperor Will, then my Helbrute along with the Obliterators general guard my object.

I've mainly use Helbrute arm with Lascannons & Autocannons.  I would not mind trying out the dateslate, mayhem pack with Multi Melta? for the Helbrutes.  Also trying out a few diffrent combat arm's.  So this is maybe somthing I'll look into during the holidays & get a few games useing the Mayhem pack.  In the future add those Multi Melta Helbrute & use them to support my Terminators when they deep strike down, could be helpful deal with tanks, then the Terminators useing the combi plasma on those units - Terminators, Ork Mega Armour, etc...

 

 

[John Bastard]

Obviously the Hellbrute has some major flaws, but I love the new model GW released (especially the customisable one). And for 100 points or so, it's not a huge loss, really.

I want to try to put two hellbrutes combined with a warpsmith healing them up in case of a bad hit.

-First one would be equiped with two power fists and two combi-bolters : 110 pts
-The second would have the standard multi-melta and the power scourge : 110 pts
Ideally, they would charge the same unit at the same time, preventing krak grenade spam thanks to the scourge and crushing all kinds of opponent with the double fists. The MM coupled with the warpsmith's melta are there to prevent any tank from coming to close.

 

Of course I say "ideally" because they would probably attract a lot of shooting (which is kind a part of the strategy). The sight of several units teaming up in the same direction usually receives a lot of attention from my opponents.

Biggest threat for this tactic : Long range AT shots (lascannons, rail gun...), so better use cover.

[the jeske]

But that formations is 300+pts and blows 3 slots, including an important HQ slot. For the same points you could take 3 hellbruts and get the formation rules. or buy two maulerfiends or buy Knight.

[brother_contagion]

I've used Helbrutes without the Formation in smaller games to great effect: Reaper Autocannons and Heavy Flamers are fun. When I've used the Mayhem Pack, I've liked giving them Plasma Cannons and Heavy Flamers, getting that double tap is a nice feeling =3 I only have 20 Cultists, so I've only been able to use 1 Helcut by WYSIWYG which failed miserably against an Eldar player with the Wave Serpent spam ignoring my 3+ cover, BUT! In one game where I used all 3 of my Helbrutes and some Gaurdsmen as Cultists (3 Helcults of 20 Cultists each) and equipped my Helbrutes with Reaper Autocannons and Power Scourges  against an Ork player: they rocked! Especially since I used Necrosious the Undying to make them Zombies, and I was able to FnP when the Helbrute made his cover save since the rule doesn't give a strength value to removing the model to negate the FnP (can't remember if that was legal or not, I think making the cover save counts as a wound with no saves on the Cultists, but I don't have the dataslate with me).

[John Bastard]

 

 

But that formations is 300+pts and blows 3 slots, including an important HQ slot. For the same points you could take 3 hellbruts and get the formation rules. or buy two maulerfiends or buy Knight.

Yeah I know, it's not the most reliable. But I really want to try this one out, and see how it performs, Im sure I will be surprise eventually.

Besides my Heavy Support slots are already full (Havocs, Mauler & Land Raider), so no more Maulerfiend for me (and the kit is pricey).

 

A Knight ? What are you, an Imperial in disguise ? :P

 

Jokes aside, the formation of the 3 Helbrutes deepstriking doesn't perform the same role then, and sounds way more risky to me (DPing, shoot stuff, getting shot at, explode) whereas my intention was to bring the Brutes in CC in relative safety.

[Dallas Drake]

"whereas my intention was to bring the Brutes in CC in relative safety."

 

How?

[John Bastard]

With the warpsmith hidden behind them :)

[Dallas Drake]

With the warpsmith hidden behind them

Right, do you think that will be enough? I don't know what your regular opponents are like but I run 2 Maulerfiends at 1250 & 1500 points, they're Beasts and have a 5++ with IWND and I usually lose at least one, sometimes both before they can make it into cc. Helbrutes are slower and have no save outside of cover, which slows them... :(

Deep striking them via the dataslate is far better, not good, but better. Deep Strike isn't that bad and I'd seriously consider it myself if having 300 points tied up in reserves didn't put me off.

[brother_contagion]

I generally give my Reaper Autocannons or Plasma Cannons to take potshots at vehicles or high toughness units, and they preform pretty well, but they're much better in the dataslate since it gives them so many extra abilities. I haven't used mine in a while because of trying out more new units I've recently bought, but this discussion makes me want to bring them out again! =]

[John Bastard]

With the warpsmith hidden behind them

Right, do you think that will be enough? I don't know what your regular opponents are like but I run 2 Maulerfiends at 1250 & 1500 points, they're Beasts and have a 5++ with IWND and I usually lose at least one, sometimes both before they can make it into cc. Helbrutes are slower and have no save outside of cover, which slows them...

Deep striking them via the dataslate is far better, not good, but better. Deep Strike isn't that bad and I'd seriously consider it myself if having 300 points tied up in reserves didn't put me off.

Sure, I understand this perfectly, but the fact is that the Maulerfiend doesn't have the same capability in CC than a Hellbrute (WS 3, A 3, I 3) . The Hellbrute seems better once in close combat and has more options against infantry. That's also why I don't really want to deep-strike them, because they lose a precious amount of time in the open getting shot at.

But I understand that shooting is most of the time more profitable than assault. Especially these days with 7th ed. I just want to believe.

but they're much better in the dataslate since it gives them so many extra abilities.

That's really weird that so many people talk about the formation as if it was the only way to field Hellbrutes in an efficient way. I mean, there HAS TO be something in the standard codex that allow Hellbrutes not to be completely useless. There has to be. I WANT TO BELIEVE !

[Emperors Immortals]

The most success ive had is either leaving him (Gur'darnath the Blooded) on a midfield objective with scourge and plasma cannon to back up some Noise Marines OR teaming it up with Autocannon Havoks behind a rhino. His only job is to recieve a charge and take pot shots at AP2 or AV10-12 units.

 

Hes still kind of useless though, unfortunatly. If they made HeavyBolters, Dreadnoughts and icons work better, and made predators available in braces of 1-3 per unit, a great many fans would suddenly be happy.

[brother_contagion]

The most success ive had is either leaving him (Gur'darnath the Blooded) on a midfield objective with scourge and plasma cannon to back up some Noise Marines OR teaming it up with Autocannon Havoks behind a rhino. His only job is to recieve a charge and take pot shots at AP2 or AV10-12 units.

 

Hes still kind of useless though, unfortunatly. If they made HeavyBolters, Dreadnoughts and icons work better, and made predators available in braces of 1-3 per unit, a great many fans would suddenly be happy.

 

I would kill for a unit of 3 Predators! lol, especially giving them Autocannons and Heavy Bolters w/ Malefic Ammo.

[Dallas Drake]

With the warpsmith hidden behind them

Right, do you think that will be enough? I don't know what your regular opponents are like but I run 2 Maulerfiends at 1250 & 1500 points, they're Beasts and have a 5++ with IWND and I usually lose at least one, sometimes both before they can make it into cc. Helbrutes are slower and have no save outside of cover, which slows them...

Deep striking them via the dataslate is far better, not good, but better. Deep Strike isn't that bad and I'd seriously consider it myself if having 300 points tied up in reserves didn't put me off.

Sure, I understand this perfectly, but the fact is that the Maulerfiend doesn't have the same capability in CC than a Hellbrute (WS 3, A 3, I 3) . The Hellbrute seems better once in close combat and has more options against infantry. That's also why I don't really want to deep-strike them, because they lose a precious amount of time in the open getting shot at.

But I understand that shooting is most of the time more profitable than assault. Especially these days with 7th ed. I just want to believe.

but they're much better in the dataslate since it gives them so many extra abilities.

That's really weird that so many people talk about the formation as if it was the only way to field Hellbrutes in an efficient way. I mean, there HAS TO be something in the standard codex that allow Hellbrutes not to be completely useless. There has to be. I WANT TO BELIEVE !

Assault is the only way I play CSMs. Our shooting is terrible.

Maulerfiends don't suffer too much, WS is pretty meaningless, Dreads don't have assault grenades so Initiative isn't that big a deal plus against tanks etc it makes no odds. Maulerfiends hit harder than you think on paper. What makes them work is their speed. True, they're a bit sucky against blobs but there are times you might use them to tarpit yourself.

I've found that if you want to run an assault list you need to be able to put loads of pressure on your opponent quickly and simultaneously. Turn 2/3 assaults are mandatory. Sadly Helbrutes are too slow. Bikes, Spawn, Maulerfiends, Khorne dogs, that's where it's at.

Now, if I could pod them down turn 1 it might be a different story!

[brother_contagion]

With the warpsmith hidden behind them

Right, do you think that will be enough? I don't know what your regular opponents are like but I run 2 Maulerfiends at 1250 & 1500 points, they're Beasts and have a 5++ with IWND and I usually lose at least one, sometimes both before they can make it into cc. Helbrutes are slower and have no save outside of cover, which slows them...

Deep striking them via the dataslate is far better, not good, but better. Deep Strike isn't that bad and I'd seriously consider it myself if having 300 points tied up in reserves didn't put me off.

Sure, I understand this perfectly, but the fact is that the Maulerfiend doesn't have the same capability in CC than a Hellbrute (WS 3, A 3, I 3) . The Hellbrute seems better once in close combat and has more options against infantry. That's also why I don't really want to deep-strike them, because they lose a precious amount of time in the open getting shot at.

But I understand that shooting is most of the time more profitable than assault. Especially these days with 7th ed. I just want to believe.

but they're much better in the dataslate since it gives them so many extra abilities.

That's really weird that so many people talk about the formation as if it was the only way to field Hellbrutes in an efficient way. I mean, there HAS TO be something in the standard codex that allow Hellbrutes not to be completely useless. There has to be. I WANT TO BELIEVE !

Assault is the only way I play CSMs. Our shooting is terrible.

Maulerfiends don't suffer too much, WS is pretty meaningless, Dreads don't have assault grenades so Initiative isn't that big a deal plus against tanks etc it makes no odds. Maulerfiends hit harder than you think on paper. What makes them work is their speed. True, they're a bit sucky against blobs but there are times you might use them to tarpit yourself.

I've found that if you want to run an assault list you need to be able to put loads of pressure on your opponent quickly and simultaneously. Turn 2/3 assaults are mandatory. Sadly Helbrutes are too slow. Bikes, Spawn, Maulerfiends, Khorne dogs, that's where it's at.

Now, if I could pod them down turn 1 it might be a different story!

I'm planning a list around 3 Dreadclaws w/ Flamer/Melta Chosen and a Khornate Infernal Dread with a Chainfist/PF and Heavy Flamers, including the Mayhem Pack and bikes (probably run it as Black Legion so Chosen can be troops). I'd get the Chosen in first and then get the Dreads in second. The Infernal could get eaten by the Dreadclaw, but I'll take that 1 in 6 chance for a good payoff! Having the 4 Dreadnoughts with a high chance to come in at once would definitely put the pressure on too!

[walpurgisnacht]

Interceptor tau list will not be your friend. Neither will a reserves manipulation IG/AM list. But, an in-your-face one trick pony gimmick would be fun, once.

 

Harsh, but honest. I like dreads, I want the four I own to see the table top. Keep you them cheap and disposable is the only way I see a use for them.

[brother_contagion]

Interceptors are awful for any army the relies on DS, but that's not what I'm up against and won't make me afraid to take the list because the pay off will be awesome. But yeah, I don't see a lot of Tau or IG, and against IG I'd probably tweek my list to include an Aegis w/ Comms Aray.

[Dallas Drake]

3 Dreadclaws, that's like over £200! Hope it works for you dude!

[walpurgisnacht]

Proxy rhinos as dreadclaws, maybe?