Dreadclaw vs Skyshield Landing Pad

[King Jackal]

Just looking to get some wisdom and discussion going about what people think takes precedence in this instance.

I can see an argument for either side.

Could be interesting, especially for us Warp denizens

[Gentlemanloser]

Are you asking whether you can start a Dreadclaw on a Skyshield pad you have purchased with Ready for Takeoff?

[King Jackal]

Yeah, sorry should have been more specific 

[Gentlemanloser]

Ready for take off only works for Fliers.

 

Is the Dreadclaw a Flier?

 

If not, you can't use it.  If it is, then this is a Codex - Codex (as long as you assume that Stronghold Assault has the rule weight of a Codex, and not the BRB...) conflict and as such you could only dice off for it.

[King Jackal]

The dreadclaw is flyer with hover but it has the special rule "drop pod assault"

[Gentlemanloser]

Dice off it is.

[Acebaur]

The dreadclaw is flyer with hover but it has the special rule "drop pod assault"

 

Well if it's the same Drop Pod Assault that's also in C:SM then that rule overrides anything else and it must deep strike. But I'm not sure of the wording of it in that dex. 

[Axagoras]

Im going to say no, the dreadclaw MUST be held in reserve and must always arrvie by deep strike

[King Jackal]

Im going to say no, the dreadclaw MUST be held in reserve and must always arrvie by deep strike

Even the Skyshield specifically says "When deploying your army, you can deploy one of your Flyers with the Hover type on top of each of your Skyshield Landing Pads that has this upgrade, even though Flyers normally have to start the game in reserve."

 

The dreadclaw is a flyer with the hover type that would normally have to start the game in reserve.

[Axagoras]

yes but other fliers dont say they HAVE to arrive by deepstrike

[King Jackal]

You're right, flyers have to arrive by reserve. The dreadclaw is a flyer where as a drop pod isn't

[Jolemai]

Whilst I do not have IA:13 in front of me, I do have HH:Extermination which as far as I can tell, has the same rules. Yes the Dreadclaw (and the Kharybdis) have the Flyer, Hover rule, but they also have the Drop Pod Assault rule. When you read that, it specifically tells you that the Pod must always begin in reserve and arrives via Drop Pod Assault. Once it has landed, then and only then can it begin to move as if it were a Flyer with the Hover type (as it in starts off Hovering once it has landed).

 

So no, one cannot begin the game with a Dreadclaw (or Kharybdis) on a Shyshield Landing Pad.

[Gentlemanloser]

Guys, this is a clear dice off.  As long as you equate Stornghold to Codex level.

 

It's a Codex - Codex conflict.

 

Now, if you equate Stronghold to BRB level, then the Codex DPA rule over rules the BRB level Stronghold rules.

 

The more important question is what does Stronghold count as?  BRB or Codex?

[Jolemai]

In this instance, the Flyer rule is a basic one. The rules listed for Drop Pod Assault on the Deathclaw entry (which will be in IA:13 and HH:E) are the advanced rule. As I mentioned above, the Flyer rule only comes into affect once the Deathclaw arrives on the table and thus prior to arriving, it is not a Flyer. Therefore, the rules included in the Skyshield entry are irrelevant.

[Axagoras]

to me its not a equal issue, the assault pod clearly says that it MUST arrive by deepstrike, and unlike fliers which have a blurb about letting ready for takeoff let them start on the board, the ready for takeoff rule doesnt let them ignore that restriction. Also if i can infiltrate a squad of legion of the damned I still cannot infiltrate them, because they MUST arrive by deep strike. But if you take space wolf allies and put them in a empty pod then thats allowed because they are still arriving by deep strike :3

[Dam13n]

A Dreadclaw must start in Deep Strike Reserve (thanks to Drop Pod Assault).

A Flyer (with Hover) may start on a Skyshield at the start of the game (thanks to Ready for Take-off).

 

In this case I'd say that must over-rules may.

[Gentlemanloser]

That's purely a matter of opion (or a wishlist) mate.

 

The Flyer rules *aren't* in question either.

 

The two contradictory rules are;

 

Ready for Take Off

Drop Pod Assult

 

If you rule the Stronghold is more Codex than BRB, you have a dice off.  Otherwise DPA wins by virtue of Codex > BRB.

 

But if Stronghold is BRB, then that opens up other Codex trumping of *all* the Fortification rules.  Regardless.

 

YMMV.

[Jolemai]

Horus Heresy: Extermination, page 235:

 

 

Drop Pod Assault

A Dreadclaw, and any unit it transports, must always be held in reserve and always enters play using the Deep Strike rules, and counts as a Drop Pod for the wider use of the Drop Pod Assault rule for the army. At the beginning of the controlling player's first player turn, they must choose half of their Drop Pod units (rounding up) to make a Drop Pod Assault. These units arrive on their controlling player's first turn. The arrival of the remaining Drop Pods in the player's force is rolled for as usual for the mission. A unit that arrives via Deep Strike in a Drop Pod Assault may not assault in the turn it arrives. In the case of the Dreadclaw, unlike other Drop Pods it is not immobile, however, after it has landed, it is treated as a Flyer with Hover mode (which starts off as hovering after it arrives via Deep Strike).

 

The Dreadclaw counts as a Drop Pod until it arrives. How does it arrive? It must arrive from reserves and always enters via Deep Strike. Only once it has arrived via Deep Strike (i.e after the Movement phase when it lands) can it then be treated as a Flyer with Hover mode.

 

Stronghold Assault, page 56?

 

Upgrade:

Ready for Takeoff:

A Skyshield Landing Pad can be upgraded to have this special rule. When deploying your army, you can deploy one of your Flyers with the Hover type on top of each of your Skyshield Landing Pads that has this upgrade, even though Flyers normally have to start the game in reserves. Flyers that deploy in this way start the game hovering and cannot Zoom in the first game turn.

 

When deploying you army, what is a Dreadclaw? It is a Drop Pod that it held in reserve. Therefore, it cannot begin the game on the Skyshield as it does not fulfill the criteria of being a Flyer with Hover type at that point.

[Gentlemanloser]

Ready for take off gives *permisson* to Fliers with Hover.

 

The Dreadclaw is a Flier with Hover.

 

That is the contradticion in the rules.

 

As much as most of us would like it, there is no Specific > General.  Or Must > May.

 

 

 

Therefore, it cannot begin the game on the Skyshield as it does not fulfill the criteria of being a Flyer with Hover type at that point.

 

Starting in reserves in *no way* removes the Flier or Hover rules from a unit...

[Jolemai]

I am aware of the rules for Ready for Takeoff. The rules for a Dreadclaw say that is counts as a Drop Pod, not a Flyer with Hover type before if enters the field of play. The rules for the Dreadclaw specifically tell you how to use it. Also, you can not deploy a Drop Pod on a Shyshield as there is only one way a Drop Pod can enter the game: via Deep Strike.

 

Have unit type: Vehicle (Flyer, Hover) is simply there to allow it to perform as one once it enters the game. The rules for the Dreadclaw also tell you how it enters, this is set in stone so why do you feel you can break it?

 

Similarly, a Caestus Assault Ram has "Tank" listed under it's unit type. This in no way means it's a tank, it's simply there to allow it to perform rams just like a Tank can.

 

Merged double post, Dam13n.

[Gentlemanloser]

It counts as a Drop Pod for the use of the Drop Pod Assult rule.

 

Without other permission, the only way to delpoy a Drop Pod is via Deep Strike Reserves. Just as thhe only way to deploy a Flier is by Reserves.

 

The point is there is a seperate rule that is giving you a different permission on *how* to deploy a Flier with the Hover type.

This in no way means it's a tank

 

Actually, that's exactly what it means...

this is set in stone so why do you feel you can break it?

 

Because there's a different rule that gives us permission to do this.

 

Edit: If a Flier can *never* enter play in any other way than through reserves, then how does Ready for Take off actually work?

 

It's a Rule that gives permission to break other rules.

 

One thing.

 

Is the Dread Claw only a Flier with Hover when it uses the Drop Pod Assault rule?

 

I though it was seperate to that.

 

If not, then it can't use the Skyshield.

 

Merged double post, Dam13n.

[Jolemai]

Flyer rule is a basic one, those applied from Ready for Takeoff are advanced. That's how.

Dreadclaw deployment is an advanced rule which tells us exactly how to use it. What makes you think that and an advanced rule (Ready for Takeoff) that allows you to tweak a basic rule (Flyer deployment) is applicable here?

 

Finally:

 

 

In the case of the Dreadclaw, unlike other Drop Pods it is not immobile, however, after it has landed, it is treated as a Flyer with Hover mode (which starts off as hovering after it arrives via Deep Strike).

 

Perhaps you can explain this part? Until it arrives via Deep Strike like a Drop Pod, it can't fulfill the bolded part of the Dreadclaw's rules.

 

***

 

As an aside, why someone would want to start on a Skyshield makes no sense as it gives you no advantage.

[Gentlemanloser]

those applied from Ready for Takeoff are advanced.

Or potentially Codex, not advanced. The whole point I was trying to make.

Dreadclaw deployment is an advanced rule which tells us exactly how to use it.

It's a Codex rule, not Advanced.

As an aside, why someone would want to start on a Skyshield makes no sense as it gives you no advantage.

Instead of rolling for your Stormraven to come into play turn 2+, you can start on on board, and have it moveing/shooting/deliverying cargo turn 1.

[King Jackal]

It is Vehicle type: Vehicle (Hover, Flyer)

 

 

Flyer rule is a basic one, those applied from Ready for Takeoff are advanced. That's how.

Dreadclaw deployment is an advanced rule which tells us exactly how to use it. What makes you think that and an advanced rule (Ready for Takeoff) that allows you to tweak a basic rule (Flyer deployment) is applicable here?

 

Finally:

Perhaps you can explain this part? Until it arrives via Deep Strike like a Drop Pod, it can't fulfill the bolded part of the Dreadclaw's rules.

 

***

 

As an aside, why someone would want to start on a Skyshield makes no sense as it gives you no advantage.

 

It doesn't say that.

 

Because it's an assault vehicle, flyer.

[Kristoff]

Or potentially Codex, not advanced. The whole point I was trying to make.

All codex rules are considered Advanced. Just MORE Advanced. Both should read up on Basic Vs Advanced in General Principles.