mc warhammer Posted November 12, 2014 Share Posted November 12, 2014 my first vs thread and i'm not even sure it's in the right forum. it's somewhat related to the hh... when i was younger, phoenix lords were generally considered the equal or (close to) of primarchs. when message boards became a thing, i found this view was still supported (at least at the ones i visited). thinking of the extreme feats of the 18 in the hh novels in contrast with the phoenix lord in the NL trilogy, this doesn't seem to be the case currently, with primarchs easily outstripping the eldar (though i found the depiction of the pl in voidstalker much more intimidating than any primarch i've read). it seems avatars are the primarch equivalent for the eldar (lets avoid fulgrim if we can). any input into this? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/299184-phoenix-lords-vs-primarchs/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Memento Of Prospero Posted November 12, 2014 Share Posted November 12, 2014 Pheonix Lords are more along the times of the "Legendary" characters of the 40k universe than Primarch power levels. Marneus Calgar and the like. Primarch level would mean rewritting their game stats and fluff, as they are pretty weak for the most of them. I agree that the avatar is close to a primarch, but not quite there yet. It still lacks the wow factor to me. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/299184-phoenix-lords-vs-primarchs/#findComment-3860334 Share on other sites More sharing options...
daveNYC Posted November 12, 2014 Share Posted November 12, 2014 The Phoenix Lords are, even after the thousands of years of training and experience, still just regular old Eldar. The Primarchs are crazy warp energy filling packaged in a stable flesh tortilla seasoned with various amounts of the Emperor's knowledge and experience. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/299184-phoenix-lords-vs-primarchs/#findComment-3860486 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blindhamster Posted November 12, 2014 Share Posted November 12, 2014 Phoenix Lords aren't just regular old eldar... wearing a suit of phoenix Lords armour turns a regular old eldar into a phoenix Lord, the minds and abilities of every eldar to wear such a suit are blended into one, should the eldar die, the suit will find another body. Therefore rising from death (which is why they have the name) That being said, I guess the point still stands in that the suit, whilst highly advanced, doesn't enhance an eldar abilities in the same manner. Most of their abilities simply come from the combined experience of many Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/299184-phoenix-lords-vs-primarchs/#findComment-3860602 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Memento Of Prospero Posted November 12, 2014 Share Posted November 12, 2014 Phoenix Lords aren't just regular old eldar... wearing a suit of phoenix Lords armour turns a regular old eldar into a phoenix Lord, the minds and abilities of every eldar to wear such a suit are blended into one, should the eldar die, the suit will find another body. Therefore rising from death (which is why they have the name) That being said, I guess the point still stands in that the suit, whilst highly advanced, doesn't enhance an eldar abilities in the same manner. Most of their abilities simply come from the combined experience of many It feels more like a glorified terminator armour than a green lantern ring in terms of power though. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/299184-phoenix-lords-vs-primarchs/#findComment-3860613 Share on other sites More sharing options...
daveNYC Posted November 12, 2014 Share Posted November 12, 2014 That being said, I guess the point still stands in that the suit, whilst highly advanced, doesn't enhance an eldar abilities in the same manner. Most of their abilities simply come from the combined experience of many Yeah, that. At the end of the day, the Phoenix Lords are limited by their physical body (that they have at the moment) in a way that the Primarchs aren't/weren't. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/299184-phoenix-lords-vs-primarchs/#findComment-3860636 Share on other sites More sharing options...
mc warhammer Posted November 13, 2014 Author Share Posted November 13, 2014 ah, i thought they were highly developed to an almost Demi-god status. at least that's how we felt as kids. I'm imagining that there'd be some power dominance over a chapter master though. so what can kill a primarch besides a primarch? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/299184-phoenix-lords-vs-primarchs/#findComment-3861196 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leif Bearclaw Posted November 13, 2014 Share Posted November 13, 2014 An undetermined amount of Chaos battleship bridge defence? The Emperor? Those are the only two things in the fluff, other than their brothers, that killed Primarchs (assuming Dorn actually died ). Curze doesn't count, because he didn't fight back when M'Shen came for him. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/299184-phoenix-lords-vs-primarchs/#findComment-3861199 Share on other sites More sharing options...
mc warhammer Posted November 13, 2014 Author Share Posted November 13, 2014 but nothing one on one huh? other than a daemon at best. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/299184-phoenix-lords-vs-primarchs/#findComment-3861203 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slips Posted November 13, 2014 Share Posted November 13, 2014 Consider that Sanguinis, Alone, took on and broke the back of Ka'Bantha over his knee the second time they met. All that happened the first is that his legs were broken. I don't know of any Eldar having done such a feat, alone and weakened. ...Then again, its Sanguinius. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/299184-phoenix-lords-vs-primarchs/#findComment-3861205 Share on other sites More sharing options...
mc warhammer Posted November 13, 2014 Author Share Posted November 13, 2014 well no. I'm just wondering if any other race has champions that can go toe to toe with one if the 20 or are humanity really outclassing everyone so easily? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/299184-phoenix-lords-vs-primarchs/#findComment-3861217 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slips Posted November 13, 2014 Share Posted November 13, 2014 Well, if we took Magnus in a 1v1 versus any other race I think we know that Magnus would just fry them before they even got the chance to blink... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/299184-phoenix-lords-vs-primarchs/#findComment-3861222 Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted November 13, 2014 Share Posted November 13, 2014 Isn't there fluff about Maugan Ra destroying billions of Tyranids on his lonesome. This sounds absolutely silly...but I've heard it more than once Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/299184-phoenix-lords-vs-primarchs/#findComment-3861233 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Lorne Walkier Posted November 13, 2014 Share Posted November 13, 2014 I think there was a example of this kinda fight in Talon of Horus... Primarch = win.. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/299184-phoenix-lords-vs-primarchs/#findComment-3861242 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leif Bearclaw Posted November 13, 2014 Share Posted November 13, 2014 Isn't there fluff about Maugan Ra destroying billions of Tyranids on his lonesome. This sounds absolutely silly...but I've heard it more than once But that's because Maugan Ra is the thing in 40k with the strongest plot armour. It's so strong he's the only guy that wipes the floor with you in you own codex. That's where the Nid bit comes from, the 5th Nid dex references Ra facing down a tendril of Leviathan on his own and beating it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/299184-phoenix-lords-vs-primarchs/#findComment-3861300 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Memento Of Prospero Posted November 13, 2014 Share Posted November 13, 2014 Plenty of things can kill a primarch, they just happen to have good plot armour. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/299184-phoenix-lords-vs-primarchs/#findComment-3861316 Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted November 13, 2014 Share Posted November 13, 2014 Isn't there fluff about Maugan Ra destroying billions of Tyranids on his lonesome. This sounds absolutely silly...but I've heard it more than once Ra facing down a tendril of Leviathan on his own and beating it. Dear me...that sounds like some truly awful writing Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/299184-phoenix-lords-vs-primarchs/#findComment-3861464 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BassWave Posted November 14, 2014 Share Posted November 14, 2014 I believe during the heresy there was a super war boss that the Emperor and Horus had to team up to beat it, if I'm remembering right. Pheonix lords are more on par with custodes from what I've seen. However, unlike primarchs, they can't die...technically. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/299184-phoenix-lords-vs-primarchs/#findComment-3862049 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorkimedes Posted November 14, 2014 Share Posted November 14, 2014 Going solely by Void Stalker and memory I'd put Phoenix Lords in a grey area between Space Marines and Primarchs If I'm remembering the final scenes of the book correctly Jain Zar basically treats groups of Space Marines like dirt, casually deflecting whole rooms of bolter fire with her spear. She's certainly far more deadly than any of the Howling Banshees that accompany her. What causes her to die (?) at the end seems to be that she lacks a lot of the esoteric abilities that make Primarchs / avatars/ greater daemons powerful. Wounds that we've seen Primarchs heal from rapidly slow her down etc. Although I guess you could make an argument that she was only there to kill Talos and once she had him in her sights why bother trying to be safe about it... not like she won't be coming back. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/299184-phoenix-lords-vs-primarchs/#findComment-3862064 Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted November 14, 2014 Share Posted November 14, 2014 Pheonix lords are more on par with custodes from what I've seen. However, unlike primarchs, they can't die...technically. I would say more like Imperial Assassins The Custodes Vendatha, someone skilled enough to be assigned to watch a Primarch, kills 3 marines and then a fourth head-shots him. I think Jain Zar would do a little better Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/299184-phoenix-lords-vs-primarchs/#findComment-3862134 Share on other sites More sharing options...
mc warhammer Posted November 14, 2014 Author Share Posted November 14, 2014 Going solely by Void Stalker and memory I'd put Phoenix Lords in a grey area between Space Marines and Primarchs If I'm remembering the final scenes of the book correctly Jain Zar basically treats groups of Space Marines like dirt, casually deflecting whole rooms of bolter fire with her spear. She's certainly far more deadly than any of the Howling Banshees that accompany her. What causes her to die (?) at the end seems to be that she lacks a lot of the esoteric abilities that make Primarchs / avatars/ greater daemons powerful. Wounds that we've seen Primarchs heal from rapidly slow her down etc. Although I guess you could make an argument that she was only there to kill Talos and once she had him in her sights why bother trying to be safe about it... not like she won't be coming back. that was her name. i know space marines are all NO FEAR but i have to say i felt their genuine confusion and shock at how easily she took them apart. it was one of the few times i've really felt overwhelmed by a character's presence, even though i was aware that primarch's are written as more powerful. it does seem that a phoenix lord occupies the space between custodes and primarch on a rough power scale. perhaps a trio of phoenix lords could actually take down a primarch in hand to hand? i have no idea why this is so interesting to me. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/299184-phoenix-lords-vs-primarchs/#findComment-3862210 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted November 14, 2014 Share Posted November 14, 2014 I believe during the heresy there was a super war boss that the Emperor and Horus had to team up to beat it, if I'm remembering right. Pheonix lords are more on par with custodes from what I've seen. However, unlike primarchs, they can't die...technically. Two. One Ullanor and one before that. Of course they weren't just fighting on even footing with the Primarchs, but like all Orcs, their physical strength is proportional to their size. The one in Wolf of Ash and Fire was so large that the Emperor had to bend reality just to remove it from existence, an act that greatly weakened him. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/299184-phoenix-lords-vs-primarchs/#findComment-3862222 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Acerbus Letum Posted November 14, 2014 Share Posted November 14, 2014 This is a good question and I guess it depends on who you ask. A big problem is that the pheonix lords dont have much fluff about them. Karandras in path of the warrior and Jain Zar in Void Stalker and Harlequin. Biggest disavantages I can see are the pheonix lords dont have any phsycic powers and cant heal like the primarchs do. Then again I never count the eldar out when they can do this: Path of the Outcast a Harlequin Solitaire kills a KoS alone armed with two power daggers Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/299184-phoenix-lords-vs-primarchs/#findComment-3862231 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted November 16, 2014 Share Posted November 16, 2014 A DB definitely likes his Eldar to be glass cannons. Super deadly until the space marine has hold of it, then it becomes alien goo. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/299184-phoenix-lords-vs-primarchs/#findComment-3864119 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raktra Posted November 17, 2014 Share Posted November 17, 2014 I'd say in terms of martial skill, a Phoenix Lord should surpass a Primarch due to experience and the whole amalgamated experiences hullabaloo that comes with their armour (and rules-wise they mostly do or are on-par), but in raw power and endurance a Primarch wins out. It's all well and good if you can Jackie Chan the :cuss out of someone, but if the guy you're fighting can do the same whilst being both tougher and stronger than you, you may as well bend over.In my mind it's kind of like Bane vs Batman, only without the Venom weakness. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/299184-phoenix-lords-vs-primarchs/#findComment-3864210 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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