Captain Cain Posted November 12, 2014 Share Posted November 12, 2014 Yes, yes i know, this is probably ganna get a lot of hate, but im posting it anyway. The question is very simple: If i'd go to a 30k tournament, what legions were i most likely to encounter (sorry if thats gramatically wrong)? My guess in the ranking: 1. Imperial Fists, because very, very shooty and reliable with only a minor drawback 2. Alpha Legion, is obviously the most versatile. 3.? What do you think? For what reasons? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/299195-most-competitively-played-legion/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slips Posted November 12, 2014 Share Posted November 12, 2014 Iron Hands. Your infantry all getting -1S to shooting done to them is not something to underestimate. They can also make a LOT of vehicles nigh unkillable or remarkably tougher. I'd say Raven Guard are competitive depending on how you field them. With the right list, maybe a character,etc. you could have a very strong Alpha Strike Army. Salamanders are also up there, imo, due to how tough they can build characters and their Legion Rules in general. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/299195-most-competitively-played-legion/#findComment-3860697 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brofist Posted November 12, 2014 Share Posted November 12, 2014 It true. Some legions ended up with better rules than others. Thankfully Forgeworld has kept things pretty balanced... overall. Caveats- some legions do things better than others and thankfully there are very few legions that got hurt bad by their legion rules. This list is entirely subjective, but you all know that already: Top Tier Word Barers: fantastic morale, can ally in chaos daemons, and are able to sweeping advance much easier? Throw in the cheapest psycher primarch in the game and you've got yourself a real winner. Iron Hands: great wargear options, big legion buff thanks to -1S to shooting (T8 rapiers? T5 terminators? T6 bikes?), and can ally in admech. The drawbacks are pretty easy to mitigate and the unique units and ROW are all pretty solid. Imperial Fists: BS5 bolters in an army armed mostly with bolters? Free tank hunters on heavy support squads? Rerolled hits in challenges? Good wargar options and decent special units? Considering the only drawbacks are 'the better end' and having to accept challenges, you get the feeling somebody at FW must like these guys. The poor Iron Warriors and Emperors Children wish their legion speciality had rules as good. Middle Upper Tier Alpha Legion: lots of unique army options thanks to choosing rules before you start the game, some great wargear options, but loosing a victory point if you are already behind means you will loose close games and can't always play for objectives. Iron Warriors: no morale checks from shooting is a big deal, two good unique units, an easy albit lackluster ROW, and ADMech battle bros are a big boon. 'The bitter end' and poor wargear options keep them for shining. Raven Guard: really solid legion rules combined with one of the most cost effective special units in the game. Hampered because its mostly assault oriented in a shooting edition. Generally speaking, it feels like the legions in Books 2 and 3 have rules that stand out better than the legions in Book 1. Forgeworld has done a few things to buff those armies already, but they are still dragging a bit behind. I have a hard time figuring Salamanders out too. On one hand they have a good ROW and great wargear options, but on the other their legion rules saddle them with a big disadvantage in a game with few fearless ICs. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/299195-most-competitively-played-legion/#findComment-3860734 Share on other sites More sharing options...
depthcharge12 Posted November 12, 2014 Share Posted November 12, 2014 I'd say that IF and IHs take the cake with their myriad rules. Upper middle tier would be Salamanders, Death Gaurd, and alpha legion. Iron warriors get an honorable mention purely because of their Tyrant Terminators and no morale from shooting/rapid fire assaulting. If you count AdMech, they are actually the best in the game from what I've seen and destroy just about all legion stuff unless you tailor a list against them. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/299195-most-competitively-played-legion/#findComment-3860841 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frostmourne Posted November 12, 2014 Share Posted November 12, 2014 How far Down are Like Soh and EC? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/299195-most-competitively-played-legion/#findComment-3860847 Share on other sites More sharing options...
depthcharge12 Posted November 12, 2014 Share Posted November 12, 2014 I'd also like to know what points limit this would be at and if Primarchs are allowed. Word Bearers go into god-tier with the acquisition of transfigured Lorgar Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/299195-most-competitively-played-legion/#findComment-3860850 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Relict Posted November 12, 2014 Share Posted November 12, 2014 I only know two players who put crunch before fluff. One runs a Word Bearers force with Lorgar Transfigured. The other just started an Alpha Legion force for zone mortalis. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/299195-most-competitively-played-legion/#findComment-3860860 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slips Posted November 12, 2014 Share Posted November 12, 2014 Oh man, if we go into Zone Mortalis, I feel that Imperial Fists with their RoW trump nearly everyone else. All shield Equipped units being boosted to T5, BS5 Shooting With Bolters and for Phalanx Warders, +1I when Charged. Then, you take a Seeker Squad (BS6 when shooting even SIA, mind you) and rapid fire 20 Tempest Bolts (assuming 10 man squad) into unsuspecting squads and laugh as you place 20 Blast Markers over them. Cringe when its breachers or other units with Hardened Armor since they can reroll failed armor saves from blast or template weapons. Take a more or less barebones Breachers squad to fulfill minimum troops selections (if you aren't taking the attackers FoC) Then, if you can afford it, a 20 man Phalanx Warder Squad (for ZM I'd prefer 2 10/15 man squads), Give the Sarge and ~5 members Power Axes (sarge has more weapon options) and maybe 4 flamers since they gain shred in ZM or Melta Guns. Maybe 2 of each. And lo and behold, a unit with BS5 Shooting (since they all have bolters stock), T5 Due to the RoW, I5 When Charged, 6++ invul to shooting, 5++ invul in CC, reroll to failed Armor Saves to Blast and Templates that Aren't AP3, Defensive Grenades due to the Boarding Shields and ~5+ Ap2 CC Attacks. ...Horrendously pricey but have twice the bodies some other Legion Specific units can bring for roughly the same cost. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/299195-most-competitively-played-legion/#findComment-3860888 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daemon2027 Posted November 13, 2014 Share Posted November 13, 2014 Iron Hands would also be very good for Zone Mortalis, can take extra graviton guns, and they have a very durable breacher squad. A game vs the Imperial Fist could get very dull. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/299195-most-competitively-played-legion/#findComment-3860936 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brofist Posted November 13, 2014 Share Posted November 13, 2014 Sons of Horus, Death Guard, and World Eaters are middle of the road. They have the least severe drawbacks, especially when compared to Salamanders, but you don't get much for it :( ECs are a mixed bag. They can be pretty deadly if you play their strengths, since you have a really good chance to win combat before the other guy and then wipe their squad. They are a hard counter to the poor salamanders, which are basically gurnateed to get wiped out if they loose that combat. Even against Raven Guard or Night Lords they stand a good chance of killing the enemy off before they strike. On the other hand, that requires getting into melee, and their unique units are ok, but not great for the points. They are probably the best of the book 1 legions. I'd say that IF and IHs take the cake with their myriad rules. Upper middle tier would be Salamanders, Death Gaurd, and alpha legion. Iron warriors get an honorable mention purely because of their Tyrant Terminators and no morale from shooting/rapid fire assaulting.If you count AdMech, they are actually the best in the game from what I've seen and destroy just about all legion stuff unless you tailor a list against them. 100% agreed about Admech. They are upper tier for sure. For that reason alone Iron Warriors get a favorable bump, since they are able to be battle brothers and share benefits (OR transports if you play using the BRB FOC). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/299195-most-competitively-played-legion/#findComment-3860945 Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted November 13, 2014 Share Posted November 13, 2014 How do the Night Lords fare? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/299195-most-competitively-played-legion/#findComment-3860970 Share on other sites More sharing options...
GhostMalone Posted November 13, 2014 Share Posted November 13, 2014 Solar auxilia ;) We're neigh unstoppable Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/299195-most-competitively-played-legion/#findComment-3860981 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slips Posted November 13, 2014 Share Posted November 13, 2014 Iron Hands would also be very good for Zone Mortalis, can take extra graviton guns, and they have a very durable breacher squad. A game vs the Imperial Fist could get very dull. You mean Iron Hands vs Imperial Fists ZM or <insert Legion Here> vs Imperial Fists? :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/299195-most-competitively-played-legion/#findComment-3861017 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dono1979 Posted November 13, 2014 Share Posted November 13, 2014 Were you looking exclusively at Legions or simply 30K armies? Because if you were just meaning armies, then I would say Mechanicus is reight up there, they are custom made to kill Marines. They can be VERY potent at low points where most other Legion armies struggle, and they hold their own in higher points, but start to fall away the higher the points get when Legions get their big toys. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/299195-most-competitively-played-legion/#findComment-3861025 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prodigal Son of Magnus Posted November 13, 2014 Share Posted November 13, 2014 I'd put Alpha Legion at number 1. They get a lot of powerful options and they are the only ones with plasma spam Moritats anymore. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/299195-most-competitively-played-legion/#findComment-3861057 Share on other sites More sharing options...
depthcharge12 Posted November 13, 2014 Share Posted November 13, 2014 How do the Night Lords fare? They seem to be very glass hammer-y. Definitely one of the best anti infantry legions, but they are incredibly high in points cost (especially their rite of war) and will feel the hurt against a mechanized enemy. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/299195-most-competitively-played-legion/#findComment-3861099 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyaenidae Posted November 13, 2014 Share Posted November 13, 2014 The one I really want to try is the Iron Warrior's shrapnel bolts on a Havoc squad in ZM. Being able to pin down an enemy squad in an empty corridor, then hit them in assault, sounds very tempting. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/299195-most-competitively-played-legion/#findComment-3861109 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Cain Posted November 13, 2014 Author Share Posted November 13, 2014 I didn't even think about admech, since i know nothing about them. I also got the feeling that the legions got better in every book. As I see it the tough legions are the strongest there are especially when they also have a tweak in the offensive. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/299195-most-competitively-played-legion/#findComment-3861159 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frostmourne Posted November 13, 2014 Share Posted November 13, 2014 Noticing a trend here, the more "Defensive" Legions are considered them most CompetetitiveWhereas the more "Mangle your Face" Legions are considered middle of the road.Now, as someone who hasnt dont the field research, is this based on the fact that Assault armies are generally considered dead (Even though they really arent), is it based on the fact that we as hobbyists measure competetiveness by how much we can weather rather than how fast we can kill, Or is it purely based on the RoW that Assault armies have.Im not biased, or trying to yank any ones chain, i am asking.I can certainly see that IF, IH and Sallies have very little in the way of Drawbacks, but NL, EC and RG do seem to have received an almost brutal amount of seemingly arbitrary restraints. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/299195-most-competitively-played-legion/#findComment-3861183 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brofist Posted November 13, 2014 Share Posted November 13, 2014 I'd say that IF, IHs, IWs, AL, and Sallies actually have pretty big disadvantages. Sallies have it the worst- they are almost guaranteed to fail their sweeping advance roll and get wiped from the board. 25 man squad looses combat? See ya later! IF and IWs opponents can choose to go 6 turns instead of rolling at the end of 5. That is guaranteed to loose you some objectives games as you are at an opponents mercy. AL give up a free VP if you kill more of them than you, which means in close games you are going to loose more often, loose harder when you are getting stomped, are playing objectives is harder. IHs have probably the least restrictive, in that they are going to fail charges or sweeps more often, but it can be mitigated probably the easiest. Alone those are big drawbacks, but most legions make up for it for them with big boons elsewhere- good wargear, a good ROW, good allies, or good generic legion rules. If all of those are mediocre and you have a drawback, you're going to be in a weaker position than somebody that has a bigger drawback, but bigger boons across the board. Assault is weaker this edition and the extra points we have to pay for melee specialists gives them a bigger disadvantage. Really though, it comes down to the drawbacks vs benefits. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/299195-most-competitively-played-legion/#findComment-3861194 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Cain Posted November 13, 2014 Author Share Posted November 13, 2014 Assault is weaker this edition and the extra points we have to pay for melee specialists gives them a bigger disadvantage. Really though, it comes down to the drawbacks vs benefits. You are right about that, since all legions use the almost same unit pool. So it really comes down to what your special rules can do for the generic units. Which is why I think IF are quite overpowered in some metas/with some builds. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/299195-most-competitively-played-legion/#findComment-3861211 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slips Posted November 13, 2014 Share Posted November 13, 2014 I mean...IF can EASILY get BS7 on a lot of units using a Master Of Signal BS6 Even more so. Glad my boys in yellow have always been my first choice \o/ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/299195-most-competitively-played-legion/#findComment-3861221 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brofist Posted November 13, 2014 Share Posted November 13, 2014 Yeah its been a bummer being an IW player :( Thankfully I can just run using IH rules, which gets me about what I want anyway. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/299195-most-competitively-played-legion/#findComment-3861227 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frostmourne Posted November 13, 2014 Share Posted November 13, 2014 Oh the problems of not having rules for your favourite Legion, but wanting one none the less! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/299195-most-competitively-played-legion/#findComment-3861230 Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted November 13, 2014 Share Posted November 13, 2014 They seem to be very glass hammer-y. Definitely one of the best anti infantry legions, but they are incredibly high in points cost (especially their rite of war) and will feel the hurt against a mechanized enemy. Thanks for the info Hmm...I think a good question is which legion counters which legion on the tabletop If your opponent chooses a legion first, which legion would you pick to maximise your probability of winning Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/299195-most-competitively-played-legion/#findComment-3861231 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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