L30n1d4s Posted November 12, 2014 Share Posted November 12, 2014 Overall, of the new 7th edition codexes, I think SW has some of the best Internal Balance out there, especially given how many units are in the codex. That said, I think there are a few units that could use a little tweaking to ensure that every option in the book is viable/competitive: UNITS TO IMPROVE (1) Wolf Scouts -- Give them "Ambush!" special rule, which allows them to pick a unit type (like Wolf Priests do) before the game; the rest of the game, their shooting and close combat attacks have the Shred USR against that unit type. (2) Power Armor Wolf Guard -- Give them a Bolter in addition to their other Wargear (3) Stormfang Gunship -- Increase range of Hellfrost Destructor to 48" and give its shooting (both profiles) the Shred USR in addition to the other rules (4) Swiftclaws -- Give them a CCW in addition to their other Wargear (5) Lukas the Trickster -- Make the Pelt of the Doppelganger cause -3WS, -3I, and -3A against any model in a challenge with Lukas (6) Ragnar Blackmane -- Replace his Power Armor with Runic Armor and make Incredible Reflexes give him D3 re-rolls per assault phase for armor/invul saves in close combat, not 1 reroll per assault phase for armo/invul saves in close combat (7) Logan Grimnar -- Add +25 points to his cost, but give him "Lord of Fenris" rule, which gives Hatred to all friendly SW units within 6" of him UNITS TO NERF (1) Thunderwolf Cavalry -- Reduce base attacks to 3A per model (from 4A per model currently) (2) Stormwolf Gunship -- Remove option to upgrade TLed Bolters to Skyhammer or TLed Multi-meltas (3) Wolf Guard Terminators -- Increase base price to 35 points/model (from 33 points/model currently) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/299202-some-slight-internal-balancing/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frater Cornelius Posted November 12, 2014 Share Posted November 12, 2014 What is the purpose of this thread? We have a codex, make that one work. Wishful thinking like that will not help anyone in any way, sorry. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/299202-some-slight-internal-balancing/#findComment-3860766 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karack Blackstone Posted November 12, 2014 Share Posted November 12, 2014 Overall, of the new 7th edition codexes, I think SW has some of the best Internal Balance out there, especially given how many units are in the codex. That said, I think there are a few units that could use a little tweaking to ensure that every option in the book is viable/competitive: UNITS TO IMPROVE (1) Wolf Scouts -- Give them "Ambush!" special rule, which allows them to pick a unit type (like Wolf Priests do) before the game; the rest of the game, their shooting and close combat attacks have the Shred USR against that unit type. (2) Power Armor Wolf Guard -- Give them a Bolter in addition to their other Wargear (3) Stormfang Gunship -- Increase range of Hellfrost Destructor to 48" and give its shooting (both profiles) the Shred USR in addition to the other rules (4) Swiftclaws -- Give them a CCW in addition to their other Wargear (5) Lukas the Trickster -- Make the Pelt of the Doppelganger cause -3WS, -3I, and -3A against any model in a challenge with Lukas (6) Ragnar Blackmane -- Replace his Power Armor with Runic Armor and make Incredible Reflexes give him D3 re-rolls to saves, not 1 reroll (7) Logan Grimnar -- Add +25 points to his cost, but give him "Lord of Fenris" rule, which gives Hatred to all friendly SW units within 6" of him UNITS TO NERF (1) Thunderwolf Cavalry -- Reduce base attacks to 3A per model (from 4A per model currently) (2) Stormwolf Gunship -- Remove option to upgrade TLed Bolters to Skyhammer or TLed Multi-meltas (3) Wolf Guard Terminators -- Increase base price to 35 points/model (from 33 points/model currently) After first read, the nerfs and balancing sections of this idea, are, in my experience, something that defines a force. I have two Stormwolves that need painting that would be invalidated. Removing parts of models can actually ruin them, such as the twin side sponsons on my new flyers. I think TWC, the Stormwolf and WG TDA are relatively fine. Not sure they need nerfs so much as the rest need benefits. Of course, what changes do you propose to all the other armies that would need them to bring all armies into the same place? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/299202-some-slight-internal-balancing/#findComment-3860770 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valerian Posted November 13, 2014 Share Posted November 13, 2014 What is the purpose of this thread? We have a codex, make that one work. Wishful thinking like that will not help anyone in any way, sorry. ++These types of threads come along fairly often, and are welcome aspects of the hobby (focusing on games/codex design vice playing, or painting, or discussion of fluff, etc.). If you don't want to participate, then don't.++ V Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/299202-some-slight-internal-balancing/#findComment-3861016 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Z00Z Posted November 13, 2014 Share Posted November 13, 2014 I think TWC, the Stormwolf and WG TDA are relatively fine. Not sure they need nerfs so much as the rest need benefits. Of course, what changes do you propose to all the other armies that would need them to bring all armies into the same place? This right here. In isolation you comparing the capabilities of our assault units with astartes counterparts. You also not considering the still heavy shooting meta. Would you approach a WS list and remove their bike uniqueness rules or would you bring other chapters on par? Would you give SW access to grav weaponry? or perhaps give us access to some of the 30"+ cheap S7 AP2/3 weaponry with numerous shots available to xenos? Perhaps also our light AV all get the skimmer rule? Why the increase of pts from 33 to 35 for a single wound model for TDA, their effectiveness is also brought into question with the abundance of low ap weaponry and mass volume of fire. Is this to bring it in line with BA? CSM? The point im making is, you have made a blanket statement and called it "internal balance". On what have you measured this balance and how have you considered your wish list / unit nerfing. Have you considered the game as a whole, every army and whats available to them or cherry picked? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/299202-some-slight-internal-balancing/#findComment-3861136 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sohail187 Posted November 13, 2014 Share Posted November 13, 2014 don't touch my beloved TWC PWEEEZE!!!! HERESY! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/299202-some-slight-internal-balancing/#findComment-3861154 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanPesci Posted November 13, 2014 Share Posted November 13, 2014 Agreed that our scouts could have really done with something else at the points they come at. One thing i REALLY wanted with them to have helforst rifles. Basically a sniper rilfe, that as well as 4+ wounding and rending, also caused the helfrost strength test. Wouldnt have been too overpowered, but would have made them scary against say monstrous creatures. However that ambush rule would do too :) Also agree that swiftclaws should have CCW, as at the moment they just aren't a good choice compared to WG on bikes (that seems like a genuine oversight to me) Ragnar i dont mind being in power armour, but really wish they'd have given him a rule so him and a unit of bloodclaws could assault out of a drop pod. The nerfs mentioned i dont agree with though: TWC are awesome as they are, but not overpowered against shooty armies. Sure, theyre gonna pan face when they get into combat, but getting them there can still be an issue against xenos. The stormwolf is fine for its points, dont want multimeltas? Dont take them. Without those options to upgrade weapons, i think it would be very poor against vehicles/other flyers - sure it has the helforst cannon, but 1 s8 shot a turn is not great for a 200pts + model. WGT - why the 2 point increase? 33pts a terminator seems OK. Are the C:SM models 35? Fiar doos if they are but pretty sure they come with powerfists which we have to pay extra for Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/299202-some-slight-internal-balancing/#findComment-3861395 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rasclomalum Posted November 13, 2014 Share Posted November 13, 2014 We're paying 3 points more for the equivalent Codex terminator. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/299202-some-slight-internal-balancing/#findComment-3861423 Share on other sites More sharing options...
tylerw Posted November 13, 2014 Share Posted November 13, 2014 Yea, I'm not sure why you'd think TDA needs a nerf - they're relatively "weak" as-is. If anything, I'd like to see them drop to ~28 points, or get some perk like twinlinked (anyway, that's more for the TDA thread). Why do you want to nerf the Stormwolf? Again, it's not overpowered. The Fang does need some reworking imo. It seems like they came to a bit of nice place with the Wolf, then figured, "Eh, the Fang has a COOL BIG GUN DOWN THE MIDDLE OF IT! We're done here boys." Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/299202-some-slight-internal-balancing/#findComment-3861516 Share on other sites More sharing options...
FenrisWolf Posted November 13, 2014 Share Posted November 13, 2014 We're paying 3 points more for the equivalent Codex terminator. One of the reasons we are paying more per terminator is that we are not bound by the codex rules of assault terminators versus regular. We have freedom to mix and match types. Want to have TH/SS and an AC? We can do it in 1 unit. Codex needs 2 and therefore uses 2 Elites slots. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/299202-some-slight-internal-balancing/#findComment-3861636 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rasclomalum Posted November 13, 2014 Share Posted November 13, 2014 Gah, what I had meant to add to my previous reply in this thread is that we pay 3 more points for equivalent termies because we get counter-attack and the things Fenriswolf mentions. I'd also like to add that this pricing is fine, and if anything should be changed at all I'd see a decrease in TEQ costs across the board or at least cheaper Chaos termies. :-) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/299202-some-slight-internal-balancing/#findComment-3861812 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Blackwood Posted November 14, 2014 Share Posted November 14, 2014 I really dont like threads like these in anything, video games , sports rule overhauls etc just comes across as fussin fer no reason. If I had to toss my two cents in I would say that all of our special characters should be able to ride thunderwolves such as rune priests and wolf priests , other than that I have nothing else I would see changed we have a book to work with and a supplement a very strong one at that. The two codex releases after us got curb stomped pretty hard , we should be happy. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/299202-some-slight-internal-balancing/#findComment-3862603 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frater Cornelius Posted November 14, 2014 Share Posted November 14, 2014 I really dont like threads like these in anything, video games , sports rule overhauls etc just comes across as fussin fer no reason. If I had to toss my two cents in I would say that all of our special characters should be able to ride thunderwolves, rune priests and wolf priests , other than that I have nothing else I would see changed we have a book to work with and a supplement a very strong one at that. The two codex releases after us got curb stomped pretty hard , we should be happy. This. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/299202-some-slight-internal-balancing/#findComment-3862618 Share on other sites More sharing options...
CatSmasher Posted November 14, 2014 Share Posted November 14, 2014 I think its worth while discuss which units are never included because of costs, and which are most frequently included. The fact that no one will ever run PA wolf guard with CC weapons means they missed the mark. The Claw variants that will never be played should be changed. Logan's and Ragnar's rules need to be changed so that someone wants to play them. Its okay to like the codex and supplements, but still discuss where you'd like to see things improve Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/299202-some-slight-internal-balancing/#findComment-3862730 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frater Cornelius Posted November 14, 2014 Share Posted November 14, 2014 But do not get lost in dreams and wishes. Eyes on the price, not the horizon. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/299202-some-slight-internal-balancing/#findComment-3862741 Share on other sites More sharing options...
CatSmasher Posted November 14, 2014 Share Posted November 14, 2014 But do not get lost in dreams and wishes. Eyes on the price, not the horizon. Truer words are rarely spoken Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/299202-some-slight-internal-balancing/#findComment-3862764 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valerian Posted November 14, 2014 Share Posted November 14, 2014 all of our special characters should be able to ride thunderwolves, rune priests and wolf priests ... Special characters riding Rune Priests and Wolf Priests? I'd be interested to see how you'd model those... Grammar matters. V Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/299202-some-slight-internal-balancing/#findComment-3862901 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frater Cornelius Posted November 14, 2014 Share Posted November 14, 2014 all of our special characters should be able to ride thunderwolves, rune priests and wolf priests ... Special characters riding Rune Priests and Wolf Priests? I'd be interested to see how you'd model those... Grammar matters. V YES! OH YES! Thanks very much V, best laugh I had in weeks :D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/299202-some-slight-internal-balancing/#findComment-3862904 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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