New to grey knights

[Everon]

2 for 5 so yes 4 for 10

 

2 warpcharges for 10 but if combat squaded it becomes 4. If obe half casts say force only that half gets it since thwir now seperate squads except for dedicated transports

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Don't listen to him, Land Raiders are an excellent option if played right. Rhinos have their place and Razorbacks...okay, those aren't GREAT. But they're not bad!

Meltaguns and lance rang, they said AV14 is still dead to them ;) . Rhinos and Razorbacks barely last a turn before being rekt by massed fire. They're bad, chew up points you badly need for more dudes, and don't achieve their stated role (getting your dudes into the fight intact).

While Ravens exist (even if changes to the vehicle rules made LR's good again), I see no purpose for LR's. The Raven cares not for your terrain, non-Skyfire anti-tank, speedbumps or infantry layering. It rides right over all that garbage and delivers Purifiers into enemy lines. Yes, Interceptor and/or Skyfire ruin its day, but that's true of all Flyers, so meh.

Well for cheaper transport I wouldn't mind a rhino depending on how many purifiers I'm trying to get In. But aside from the lack of transport for the purifiers, how good is that list?? My normal opponent fields Tau and Tyranids

If you want ground transports for Purifiers, don't. Ravens or drop pods.

Like I pointed out above, you do have transport for the purifiers if you bundle them up with Draigo and use GoI to get them to where you want them...

Yeah but like I mentioned earlier, Draigo is a Lord of War and quite expensive. Don't get me wrong, he's amazing, but opportunity cost is still a thing in 40k like it is everywhere else. Draigo is honestly so much better with Grav-Centurions, he fixes their big problems (no invul save, no melee ability, slow) without holding them back at all. That is a combo for larger games though, I'd avoid Allies n such below 2k.

Draigo

Librarian, L3

Purifiers, 2x Incinerator, 1x Hammer, 1x Halberd, Meltabombs

Terminators, 1x Psycannon, 1x Hammer, 1x Halberd, Meltabombs

Terminators, 1x Psycannon, 1x Hammer, 1x Halberd, Meltabombs

Stormraven

Dreadknight, Teleporter, Incinerator

Dreadknight, Teleporter, Incinerator

At 1500.

Yeah that's probably as good as Knights get at 1500. I'd maybe sub Draigo for more Terminators or another DK.

Are they squads of 5 termies and purifiers, just with those upgrades? But I love the sound of that list! Literally my perfect list

Are the libbies good enough with no upgrades??

Yeah. Our Termies are still 33ppm, Purifiers are 25ppm. With minimal upgrades both of them easily hit 200pts for a combat squad.

Libbies are fine with nothing at all. Mastery 3 is nice but you can even drop that if you need the points (at 1.5k its such a squeeze for our army, every point is vital).

The libby has PML3. Personally I would drop a terminator squad in favour of more weapons on the dread knight. And perhaps up the purifier squad to 10 models and combat squad them, so one goes in the Raven.

Reduce model count? Urgh Throne no. DK's just need to swap for heavy psycannon, which can be done by dropping the Mastery 3 off the Libby. I'd leave the Purifier squad at 5-man, you won't cast two 'Cleansing Flame' in the same Psychic Phase, you just don't have the charge generation (especially once you take casualties).

How many heavy weapons can purifiers have? Is it 4 for 10? I wouldn't mind combat squadding 5 of them to go for a frontal assault or even a hammer to a terminator anvil. And have the other 5 heavy weapons either being 4 Psycannons and being more stationary or 4 incinerators that's how I would run them. If you combat squad them do they generate two warp charges? If not do you only need to cast the one spell to effect the other combat squad?

Thanks

Purifiers get 2 special weapons for every 5 dudes in the squad, so yes four psycannon at 10-strong. Combat squadding them is a common choice in larger games, leaving the four psycannons and a sword dude to camp in a Bunker or Aegis Line whilst the other half rides in a Raven and is used for melee.

I'd avoid incinerators on Purifiers, its overkill due to 'Cleansing Flame' already being better at horde clearance, and their amazing melee ability meaning its not needed for either charging (where it risks you killing too much stuff and denying a charge) or in defense (short of Terminators very few units can safely charge Purifiers). Take psycannon if you want a shooty combat squad, or just leave them basic. I would mix in a hammer or two if you expect to use them in melee, it gets them out of jams with high Toughness (you can't rely on 'Hammerhand' or 'Force' being active), vehicles, 2+ saves and MC's.

If you combat squad Purifiers, each combat squad generates 2WC. So, if you had a 10-man unit, and split them up at deployment, you would have 4WC in total. I would re-iterate that they only generate charge if they're on-table. not if they're in Reserve. so keep that in mind.

Psychic powers can usually only target a single unit (novas are an exception to that but they have their own rules). Each combat squad is considered a seperate unit after you deploy them, so no you could only buff one combat squad with a single power, not both.

[Quozzo]

Dropping Craigo instead of terminators is probably a better option. I just like having my cake and eating it.

 

Edit: Who the he'll is Craigo? How do I turn off auto correction on a Samsung tab?

 

Someone should probably mention that when you combat squad a unit, you don't have to keep the 2 in 5 special weapon ratio. You could have one combat squad with 4 psycannons/incinerators/psilencers and another with 4 falchions and a hammer, for example. Both combat squads could ride in the Raven and jump out together, or have only the melee combat squad in the raven (due to its assault ramp) and the ranged unit tag along with Draigo, but only if you like eating cake :D

[Captain Laavain Sunder]

I've just gotten the book today, and I don't see what people moaned about. I quite like it :) I think it's quite nice!

 

Thanks for all the help, and there's obviously alot of tricks to the book that I need to look into.

 

One thing I did notice is.. crowe has no AP or Str increase on his sword.. it's terrible?! Can't I just have a normal force sword?!

[Everon]

Nah. They explain why in the lore. A cursed thing he never lets leave his hands because it actually tried to run away before. His skill made him lose rending for his challenge rules which are nice but I guess he forgets how to sword fight when not in a challenge

[Quozzo]

Lol Crowe xD. He used to have rending on a 4+. Now he has both brotherhood champion stances but only when in a challenge.

[Captain Laavain Sunder]

And the weapon he uses sucks balls. No AP, no str increase.. not gonna use him!

 

P.s. what should I equip my dread knight with? I was thinking incinerator, and Gatling Psilencer?

[Quozzo]

Heavy psycannon has stole the top spot since it got its new profile and has the other one should you need it (although I think they left in the blast profile so it wasn't obvious that they did a full 360 on it, as no one used the HP in the last codex). The heavy incinerator is ironically better at dealing with Marine equivalent (MEq) units than it is against hordes over the gatling psilencer, thanks to its higher strength, even then it will still perform admirably since it has torrent.

[Captain Laavain Sunder]

I've glued it with the Psilencer, incinerator, and sword. The Psycannon is probably better but we don't play competitively. So I can always use it as a 'count as' weapon. Plus I fight tyranids alot. So it would be so fun to pop his big MC sometime haha

[jeffersonian000]

Never glue an option, always magnetize so you can swap options. You will find it the best fit for you game without regret.

 

SJ

[Reclusiarch Darius]

I've just gotten the book today, and I don't see what people moaned about. I quite like it I think it's quite nice!

It's the fact they've made our already overused units even more powerful (Purifiers, Librarians, Dreadknights), and nerfed anything mediocre or already bad into 'this actively ruins your game stop doing that' tier (Dreads, Purgators, Strikes, Tech-Marines, transports). We basically have one or two builds that work, and neither of them are top-tier competitive. It's depressing how far we've gone from being the 5th edition whinefest generator to essentially a glorified data-slate.

One thing I did notice is.. crowe has no AP or Str increase on his sword.. it's terrible?! Can't I just have a normal force sword?!

Ah, but if you challenge with him, he gets AP2 and re-rolls failed saves! Forge that narrative!

P.s. what should I equip my dread knight with? I was thinking incinerator, and Gatling Psilencer?

Heavy psycannon always, its his best gun by far and provides invaluable anti-tank in an army crying out for solutions to mech at range. Also the fact he can Shunt (again, never leave home without the teleporter, its a mandatory upgrade) means he can get at side or even rear arcs to hit weaker AV facings.

Heavy incinerator is a solid choice, but its only anti-infantry. Take it as his other gun on maybe 1-2 of your Dreadknights, but if you need points elsewhere you can skip it.

Gatling psilencer is amazing with 'Force' turned on...but its otherwise quite underwhelming. I'd save it for matchups you know it'll be better than the incinerator (Daemons, MC-heavy lists...that's it mainly).

[Gentlemanloser]

 

 

and there's obviously alot of tricks to the book that I need to look into.

 

No there's not. :(

 

Our old book had tricks.

 

This is one dimensional.

 

Librarians, Terminators and Dreadknights.

 

*maybe* spice with Purifiers, Stormravens and Interceptors if you get bored.

 

There's no synergy between units, and no tricks.

 

:(

[jeffersonian000]

 

and there's obviously alot of tricks to the book that I need to look into.

No there's not. :(

 

Our old book had tricks.

 

This is one dimensional.

 

Librarians, Terminators and Dreadknights.

 

*maybe* spice with Purifiers, Stormravens and Interceptors if you get bored.

 

There's no synergy between units, and no tricks.

 

:(

"We are the Hammer ..."

 

SJ

[Reclusiarch Darius]

TBH the lack of synergy (beyond obvious stuff like putting 'Prescience' onto key units with Libby's etc) is understandable. We're the Marine archetype (good at shooting and melee but expensive and small army) taken to the logical extreme. We don't have shooty specialists supporting melee specialists, we have an army of generalists. Every unit we have is expected to be able to fight alone if need be, hence why everyone has both excellent ranged firepower and scary melee at the same time. 

 

The Grandmaster kinda exemplifies this archetype. He's one of the few Marine HQ's in the game who is allowed to have an awesome gun as well as hitting like a freight train in melee. Most Marine HQ's have a combi-gun at best, if not just a bolt pistol or storm bolter. A Relentless psycannon is reaching Tau levels of shooty for a HQ, especially when you factor in his access to 'Divination'. Of course you pay for all that flexibility. 

 

My feeling through playing us through multiple editions is that we're actually a melee army that compensates for GW's pathological hatred of melee combat (outside challenges of course) with having solid firepower to lay down on the approach. So many of our abilities only matter in melee (most of our Sanctic powers, Force etc). Hence why Termies+DK are staples, as both can deliver themselves to Turn 2 charge range quickly and can expect to survive to do so (barring mass focus fire at them, which is why you need multiples). The meta-game punishes us so hard for it though, you'd barely notice we're so awesome at melee combat. 

 

Maybe at some point in the future, GW might take random charge distance, Overwatch, Tau/Eldar in the current incarnation etc behind the shed and shoot it. One can dream. Until then, enjoy getting tabled by tourney lists. 

[Gentlemanloser]

RD it's things like the removal of TGS.

 

We used to be able to take a GKGM, and provide some additional benefits for 1d3 units, and change our gameplay a little.

 

Or you could attach an IC to a Purgation Squad to make use of Astral Aim.

 

But we've nothing like that now.  Well, with the exception of the poor Brotherhood Champion.

 

As you say, we're a bunch of generalist units that are designed to work on thier own.  We just slap multiple of those together.

 

None of them help bolster other units.  There no force multiplication.

 

Putting it bluntly, we've no Markerlights. :P

[raverrn]

GK force multiplication happens in the psychic phase. Figuring out who gets Hammerhand and if it's worth it to Vortex of Doom and how thin you can stretch your dice is a key skill to playing the army.

 

Other tricks tend to bounce off that - Domina Liner Daemonica positioning for one-dice Hammerhand, using the Soul Glaive to push through Force on a unit of psilencers, that kind of thing.

 

If you're looking for anything further, you want to hit up allies. There's an amazing amount to do with other imperials - try casting Sanctuary on a unit of Hammernators or running the Bone Shard in a henchmen unit with Daemonhosts in it!

[Gentlemanloser]

Totally.

 

But everyone has allies, and allies mess with everything.

 

On their own, even psychic powers don't force multiple.

 

You don't get one GK Squad casting something on another.  And the sharing of WC isn't force multplying anyway.  Not with the free 1d6 to aguement casts.

 

A GK unit casts Hammerhand on itself.  Regardless of where the WC came from.

 

You could stretch to Stern with Sactuary on Hammernators, or Draigo with GoI and Centurion.  But we're back to allies. ;)

[raverrn]

Totally.

But everyone has allies, and allies mess with everything.

On their own, even psychic powers don't force multiple.

You don't get one GK Squad casting something on another. And the sharing of WC isn't force multplying anyway. Not with the free 1d6 to aguement casts.

A GK unit casts Hammerhand on itself. Regardless of where the WC came from.

You could stretch to Stern with Sactuary on Hammernators, or Draigo with GoI and Centurion. But we're back to allies.

If you don't think Hammerhand is a force multiplier than lawls.

If you don't thing psychic phase shenanigans w/r/t casting and baiting out your opponent's dice is tricksy, doublelawls.

[Gentlemanloser]

Its a unit buff.  It's not a force multiplier.

 

You don't take a unit with Hammerhand, activate it, and it makes other parts of your army better.

 

That's what a force multiplier is.

[raverrn]

Its a unit buff.  It's not a force multiplier.

 

You don't take a unit with Hammerhand, activate it, and it makes other parts of your army better.

 

That's what a force multiplier is.

 

It multiplies your unit's effectiveness in CC. That's what a force multiplier does?

[Reclusiarch Darius]

RD it's things like the removal of TGS.

We used to be able to take a GKGM, and provide some additional benefits for 1d3 units, and change our gameplay a little.

We knew that was on the chopping block though. Reliably changing the flexibility of your list every game is too consistent. Warlord Traits, as far as the eye can see. Roll D6's until things happen...or don't ;)

Or you could attach an IC to a Purgation Squad to make use of Astral Aim.

Unique squad-based psychic powers that compliment their supposed role? BURN THE HERETIC!

Again, a change we knew was coming. TBH 'Astral Aim' was never that great, but it was something. Now they have....NIGHT VISION! WATCH OUR ENEMIES TREMBLE!

But we've nothing like that now. Well, with the exception of the poor Brotherhood Champion.

The stances are cool, but I'd prefer they were useable outside of challenges. That's the real kicker with him, plus his stupid price hike (yeah lets pay the same price as a Brother-Captain...for less).

Putting it bluntly, we've no Markerlights.

A small part of me is secretly happy Tau are a tournament army now. I mean, I don't like they're so brutally overpowered against every list bar Eldar...but for so long they were milling around with Sisters and DE in the 'solid unless your opponent understand how the game works' tier. Markerlights are utterly absurd though. Before, -1 to cover, or -1 to Pinning, or +1 to BS was fine and fair (markerlight platforms are always easy to kill and they never kill anything by themselves). 2 counters to flat-out Ignore Cover is so broken.

But my favourite 'yet another way Tau ignore the rule of 40k' moment is the FAQ (remember that kids, GW wrote errata to allow this). Markerlights not only boost BS normally, they also boost Snap Shots. SNAP. SHOTS. You literally just spam Marker Drones or use a Skyray, and suddenly your units are back to BS3 or even BS4 against Flyers and FMC's. The real kicker? It works on 'Invisibility'. The one actual overpowered trick we can muster (after playing wheel of fortune with Telepathy rolls mind you) gets countered by markerlights yet again.

It multiplies your unit's effectiveness in CC. That's what a force multiplier does?

No because what GL means by 'force multipler' is 'army multiplier'. That's what 'force' means in that context. If he wanted to mean 'unit buff' he'd use that term.

I agree, outside of Librarians/Grandmasters or Allied psykers, our army doesn't share powers or buff eachother in any way. I'm kinda happy about that in some ways. It makes sense, as typically we don't form a line of battle (unless its 'desperate land stand' time or something), and each element of a strikeforce typically fights alone and unaided. Hence our entire army is a bunch of Librarians essentially, mixing solid ranged firepower with psychic buffs and deadly melee potency.

Its annoying the meta kicks our teeth in for being what we are, but that's just how it is. GW want to tip the scales in favour of xenos and Daemons this edition.

[Gentlemanloser]

It's something like the old 'Rites of Battle'.

 

Your dudes are all Ld8 and prone to run away.

 

Taking a Chapter Master as your HQ gave you army wide Ld10.

 

That's a force Multiplier.  Your entire army becomes more durable (ok, ok, has no effect on units in your army that are already Ld10...) becuase of the inclusion of said HQ Unit.

 

We get nothing like that.

[raverrn]

What about the banners that do exactly that thing you just said?

 

I mean, I suppose I can see where you're coming from. Or could, if Librarians and Techmarines didn't exist. Or most of our relics for that matter. Compared to Space Marines and to older versions of the codex, we're all right.

 

I think you're just butthurt about Grand Strategy.

[Gentlemanloser]

True, we've got a Banner.

[Happy-inquisitor]

None of them help bolster other units.  There no force multiplication.

 

 

 

Our best HQ options are psykers with access to Divination - surprisingly for a psyker army that is where the force multipliers come from.