female primarchs

[mc warhammer]

erm...discuss

[mc warhammer]

but seriously, somewhat inspired by what wade said regarding primarchs being inspired by historical female figures and by what malcador claims to have recommended to the emperor (which empy took as a hilarious joke)...would this have been a good idea?

 

would they be any different? or simply female embodiments of the same concepts?

 

or more like how Tolkien depicts the female and male demigods in middle earth as supplementary forces?

 

perhaps like mythical goddesses of war?

 

who would they be based on (from a writer's standpoint)?

 

a general discussion of ideas as far as what they would be like rather than if they would have any worth might avoid heated debate. lets leave the equality debate aside and just let imaginations run.

[simison]

Well, I wish my wife was awake to remind me of some of the inherent advantages women have over us. From what I remember, typically, women are more resistant to physical pain and are more socially aware then men are.

 

So, in an ideal situation, perhaps female primarchs would've handled the sibling rivalry better and been better equipped to resist Chaos. Perhaps all female Primarchs should also come with the Feel No Pain special rule.

 

In that instance, Malcador would've been correct to insist on female Primarchs.

 

 

Onto your next question: I'm not sure how we could get female Primarchs and not have them embody the same concepts as our canon group since (supposedly) each Primarch was created for a specific purpose. Thus, we would get the same batch of ideals quite easily. Though, perhaps (I'm using that word alot, I'm sorry), there would be some minor variations.

 

For example, instead of Mr. Viking - Leman Russ, his feminine counterpart would've embodied the Valkyrie image. Mangus' mirror I can see taking on an Isis aspect. And so on....actually, I'm now quite curious what a full range of female primarchs would look like.

 

But I only see them fulfilling a supplementary role if only half of the Primarchs are male and the other half female with the women in the supplementary positions, maybe going as far as to have only 10 legions, but with 2 different aspects. Which I can see that adding enormous story potential when the Horus Heresy breaks out. Would whole pairs fall under sway, or singular aspects? 

 

 

 

I'm going to have to go and make a plasma donation soon, but I'll have my laptop there with me, so I'll definitely make two lists if you don't mind. One with pure female batch and the mixed because now my imagination is on fire.

 

I will finish this last post with a bit of personal history. Before it's current incarnation, the Halcyon Wardens, or the Crimson Crusaders back then, were originally going to be a dual project as I was going to fill out both II and XI Legion. The XI Legion's primarch I had planned on being female to add a little more variety and was going to be the Medical-General concept, with her legion having expert Medicaes and improved medical technology with a bit of biological weapons thrown in. They were to be called the Hospitallers, not very unique, but it was a start. I'll just leave this here to see if it's help with anyone else's imaginations.

[Slips]

Well, let it be stated here, that this thread is already on thin ice (look no further than MSoT's thread on Cybernetically Augmented Females... :( ).

 

So, if EVERYONE stays on topic and DOES NOT DEVIATE A SLIGHT BIT, then everything should be fine and our imaginations could run wild and find fuel for our current/future projects.

 

That said, Simisons idea of having 10/20 Legions being led by Dual Primarchs (quad Primarch Alpha Legion!?!?!? As if they weren't confusing enough) could add a LOT of depth to the storyline. Would indeed be an interesting thing to be seen expanded upon.

 

...Also, Simison again, you just scratched my fluff gland hard with the Hospitaliers Idea...

 

1) I'm a Healer in WoW and tend to play / Prefer such roles in other games where the option is available.

2) I kinda have a thing for Apothecaries in 40k. As if me recommending Primus Medicaes at every possible opportunity wasn't sign enough

3) Something else I'm too tired to think of because I'm currently sitting in the LAGGFEST that is the WoW Expansion launch....GAMER4LYFE...sigh..10 years..

 

I may have to expand upon this and Actually make a Legion myself...even though the Imperial Fists are and always will be my boys....

[The_son_of_Dorn]

No.

[mc warhammer]

yeah I thought it might be a tad risky, but if we treat it purely from a "how would you do it?" approach. like a writer's brainstorm.

 

if you hate the idea full stop, all good. this is probably not the best thread for you. i think we can already imagine all the reasons why not to have female primarchs, why not play with reasons for?

 

simison, I'm in a similar boat. the more I think about the more options I'm coming up with. it might be a while before I whittle down my own list.

[Wade Garrett]

I'm nae sae sure that a female Primarch would have automatically been kind, nurturing, and gotten along spendidly with all her siblings purely by virtue of her second X chromosome as Malcador seemed to be.

 

Then again, he did grow up in the Bronze Age, so the fact that his views are "Daddies wear power armor and conquer worlds, mommies stay in the kitchen and put band aids on skinned knees" isn't exactly a huge shock.

[Memento Of Prospero]

No, for the same reason GW avoids all confirmations of space marines having functional genitalia. The Grim Dark universe would turn into an HBO series, which I REALLY don't want.

 

It also runs deeper than that. It would effectively completely change the Emperor's viewpoint on humanity and how best to use it as a ressource, in a rather simplistic way to put it. We would be rewritting the whole history of the setting. We also cannot be certain that having female primarchs would amount different behaviors. We do not know for a fact that primarchs are made from human stock. To me they are just shells that harbour the distilled essence of the Emperor's will. They are his avatars of war, made in his image. Why would he create female.

 

And that whole Malcador quote about him needing female primarchs was a joke the Emperor did not get, which is a stupid statement in itself.

[simison]

This is true. On the flip side of the coin, women can be extremely vindictive and are much capable of wielding words as weapons. So, maybe the Heresy would've happened sooner and Chaos would've made more in-roads among the primarchs. Hard to tell. 

 

Now, for that first list, again not a lot of variation in identity or role if aall of the primarchs were female:

1st legion: easy one, keep the knights and change the Lion to a Lioness or you could use Joan of Arc as a base.

2nd legion: ...I'll leave that one blank.

3rd legion: besides perfection, there is a strong Roman vibe. I'm tempted to change Fulgrim to Victoria (which is what the EC aim to be; victorious in all things)

4th legion: little more difficult, but with the Greek influences, perhaps Athena? She is the goddess of war and towns.

5th legion: I confess, I have no clue. I'm a history grad, but I am simply unaware of any kind of feminine martialship or mythological being to say anything other than female Khan.

6th legion: as I mentioned, Valkryies could fit easily here. Even better, in the original myths, they rode giant wolves, not horses. So, the wolf theme fits quite well here.

 

And I need a break. I'm not used to typing one-handed.

[mc warhammer]

it's a creative exercise but...ah well. internet.

[Vesper]

No, for the same reason GW avoids all confirmations of space marines having functional genitalia. The Grim Dark universe would turn into an HBO series, which I REALLY don't want.

 

/thread

[Wade Garrett]

The thing about a Primarch is, it's not so much that they're male or female, they're a twelve foot tall giant with inhuman intellect and charisma created for conquest by a man who uses the line between genius and insanity as a jump rope. I think even the most chauvinistic warlord on Olympia or Baal would change his mind about the proper way for his daughter to be brought up when she's bigger and stronger than he is by the time she's five.

 

As for why the Emperor would make female Primarchs...why make a Primarch whose brain was tearing itself apart right out of the pod? He moves in mysterious ways. Very mysterious ways.

[simison]

Continuing on:

 

7th: If not earlier, Athena could fit well here, perhaps with an emphasis on lightning. Otherwise, maybe Mars. 

8th: I'm trying reeeaaaalllyy hard and not say Selena. (aka Catwoman) Though cats can be nasty, vicious critters, and it would add a link between her and the Lioness, since, in canon, the two felt a kinship.

9th: fun fact - type 'angel' into google image, and most of the images are feminine. Add 'warrior' and you still end up with plenty of both sides. Even the name, Sanguinius, isn't inherently masculine.

10th: The Gorgon name is already there. Why is he called that? You can keep the name, since it's just a literal translation, and perhaps add a fear-causing eye weapon.

12th: Angria? Angrianna?

[mc warhammer]

5th legion- I assume we're trying to keep this in Asia? a quick google reveals khutalan, who doesn't have genghis' rep but was apparently a skilled enough warrior and exceptional figure that she inspired western stories too.

 

no idea how accurate this list is:

http://listverse.com/2008/03/17/top-10-badass-female-warriors/

 

i'm unsure as to whether I'll attempt a list of direct counterparts or try to create a list that borrows from the themes of stories that 40k does, utilizing female versions in the same way those stories did (some women as fighters, some as manipulators, some as administrators, some as destructive or nurturing forces) just to see what comes of it. for an extra layer of difficulty i might see if I can come up with the sort of worlds and upbringing chaos/emperor might have chosen for them.

 

the thing to remember is that all 20 primarchs were created to be generals but what he got was a few scholars, philosophers, politicians and artists too. odd that its only ever their adoptive fathers mentioned...

[mc warhammer]

simison, I'd be tempted to play with a female joker-ish take for 8th. though not a female character as such, in postmodern analysis batman represents traditional masculine traits and the joker embodies the feminine.

[Leif Bearclaw]

9th: fun fact - type 'angel' into google image, and most of the images are feminine. Add 'warrior' and you still end up with plenty of both sides. Even the name, Sanguinius, isn't inherently masculine.

Actually Sanguinius is kinda inherently masculine. The Latin -ius suffix is the masculine declension. The female equivalent would be Sanguinia.

[simison]

That's a thought, and the last trilogy proved that the Joker can be intensely terrifying.

 

Ah, thanks for the catch, Leif. I did not know that.

[mc warhammer]

The thing about a Primarch is, it's not so much that they're male or female, they're a twelve foot tall giant with inhuman intellect and charisma created for conquest by a man who uses the line between genius and insanity as a jump rope. I think even the most chauvinistic warlord on Olympia or Baal would change his mind about the proper way for his daughter to be brought up when she's bigger and stronger than he is by the time she's five.

 

As for why the Emperor would make female Primarchs...why make a Primarch whose brain was tearing itself apart right out of the pod? He moves in mysterious ways. Very mysterious ways.

there's a lot of dad stuff in the heresy. the emperor is dad, but so is my adopted dad who I love/hate (or who love/hates me) and I am the dad to my legion of warriors who are dads to nobody. except maybe a gene seed.

 

would you send a female primarch bub to baal or olympia? are there any matriarchal 30k worlds or societies?

[simison]

That listverse link gave me a good idea. Have Angron based off of Boudicca. Both rebel leaders who were motivated by anger and vengeance. 

 

13: Nothing comes to mind off hand. Except Minerva, which is lame if you have a passing knowledge of greco-roman myth.

[Castiel]

1st Legion - Joan of Arc - knightly female of similar era to the DA background stuff

3rd Legion - Victoria, Roman Goddess of Victory

4th Legion - Athena, Greek Goddess of wisdom, courage, inspiration, civilization, law and justice, strategic warfare, mathematics, strength, strategy, the arts, crafts, and skill. Sounds like Perturabo to me.

5th Legion - Altani, one of Genghis Khan's daughters, noted as a hero to her people.

6th Legion - Freyja Goddess of Battle

7th Legion - Not sure

8th Legion - Not sure

9th Legion - Sanguinia

10th Legion - Well, the Gorgon is a female from Greek Mythology, so no need to change methinks

12th Legion - Boudicca (vengeance seeking female leading a host of warriors? Sounds good)

13th Legion - Juno, Roman Goddess

14th Legion - Not Sure

15th Legion - Isis

16th Legion - Not Sure

17th legion - Not Sure

18th Legion - Vesta

19th Legion - Not sure, maybe someone with more of a background in Native american culture can suggest.

20th Legion - Alpharia Omega 

[Memento Of Prospero]

That listverse link gave me a good idea. Have Angron based off of Boudicca. Both rebel leaders who were motivated by anger and vengeance. 

 

13: Nothing comes to mind off hand. Except Minerva, which is lame if you have a passing knowledge of greco-roman myth.

 

MARGARET THATCHER! That is all.

[mc warhammer]

wolf pack, I don't know why that made me laugh so hard. thank you.

 

simison, Boudicca does seem a good twin inspiration for angron. especially since her personal strategy seems to amount to "attack!".

 

Joan of arc, Victoria and the Gorgon all seem like no brainers. castiel, I was unaware of altani. her story is simple and brave, I like it. I agree on alpharius and omegon- no need to change it.

 

I'm starting to imagine that my female list will be an attempt to balance out the male 20 (or vice versa) in theory, an attempt that in practise would produce mixed results.

 

excuse the crazy use of capitals. iphoning. lazy.

[simison]

Ha! The 'Iron Lady'? Heh, maybe so. Technically, there's no reason for us not to draw on modern examples, since they would've passed into the realm of 'ancients' by 30k. Otherwise, Castiel makes a good suggestion.

 

14th: My initial thought was Elizabeth Bathory, the noblewoman who bathed in young women's blood to keep herself youthful, but she would fit better in the Night Lords, or a Chaos-version of the Blood Angels. Of course, the simple answer is Mortaria

 

15th: Isis, as mentioned earlier.

 

16th: Here's an interesting one, since there are no other Egyptian influences other than Horus' name. The first name that came to mind was Hera (which would mean the Vengeful Spirit is a very fitting name). As queen of the gods, she was supposedly very powerful in her own right. 

 

17th: Well, ideally, we would have a historical crusader, but I can't find one of those. The Order of the Hatchet is supposedly one group that allowed women in who directly fought against the moors in defense of their homes. Perhaps an original name will have to suffice.

 

18th: I'm not sure how well Vesta fits here, but I've already used Minerva. 

 

19th & 20th: I'm not sure either of these really needs to be changed, since Corax's name is just 'black' twice in a row as I understand it. And the twins don't need much changing either.

[simison]

Okay, so my list isn't really completed, but there's enough of a basis to start work on the next, much more complicated one - the pairings...

 

I'm going to go with 10 legions because it'll be simpler....I think. Which means I have to figure out which ones to cut and/or combine. Many of the legions have overlapping spheres with one or two others, so it shouldn't be too hard. 

 

 

 

1. The Luna Wolves and the Emperor's Children can be combined into one quite easily since they're both about being the best and shock & awe tactics

 

2.When you get past the moral tendencies, both the Night Lords and the Raven Guard are all about feints and sneak attacks. 

 

3.Death Guard and Salamanders are all about endurance and template weapons, just different flavors of the two coins. 

 

4.The White Scars and the Blood Angels are highly mobile strike armies that match each other speeds. 

 

5. Ironically, we get a siege legion if we combine the Imperial Fists and the Iron Warriors.

 

6. The Thousand Sons and the Word Bearers have a great emphasis on knowledge (one applying it, the other destroying bad knowledge)

 

 

That leaves me Dark Angels, World Eaters, Ultramarines, Space Wolves, Iron Hands, & Alpha Legion

 

 

7. Both the Space Wolves and World Eaters have that uncouth feel to them with their own codes of honor and are known for getting the messy assignments.

 

8. Secret knowledge is a running theme in the Dark Angels and the Alpha Legion.

 

9. Which leaves me with Ultramarines & Iron Hands. Which works well enough, I suppose.

 

 

Then the much harder question, which half is which. *glances at dice*

[simison]

Last post before I must sleep. 

 

I'm not sure if there is truly a proper way to go about this gender choosing, so I'm going to give an initial impression and if everyone hates it, I'll just throw some dice and let randomness decide. 

 

1. I think Horus and Victoria would be the first pair. I hate using stereotypes, but Fulgrim's penchant for...appearances is a better fit in a feminine point of view. Could also argue that the Big E would prefer it that his prized child be a son.  And this way, I don't have to change the name of the Heresy. In this case, Victoria is definitely the supplementary position to Horus. Possible legion name? I....am not sure. Probably not Sons of Horus, unless Victoria specifically assented to that. I see Emperor's Children working very well here, ironically.

 

2. This one is much more interesting because while the first pair worked so well, there's going to be a natural disagreement over how far is too far. Corax has always been more practical, but he does have his ideals. Perhaps he or she could be a stabilizing factor on Konrad. If I had to choose, make Curze female...if only to bring a renegade, demi-god-of-war version of the Joke, which would be suitably awesome and terrifying. In this case, I see the Night Lords being a smaller segment of the Raven Guard legion (though it'd be just one name) acting as a 'last chance' battalion when used against the enemy. Legion name? Night Ravens? Night Furies?

 

3. Not as much inherent conflict between these two as opposed to the last one. Well, then again, I suppose it depends on how well Vulkan deals with Mortarion's chemical weapons. From the gut, I see Vulkan operating just as well as a woman, while Mortarion being a man would help with his intimidation. I see the legion essentially operating like the usual, a very tough, 'I'm going to come right at you' army. One side is simply more willing to accept casualties. Legion name? .....Death Dragons? Chimera?

 

That's all for now. We'll work on the rest later....probably 12 hours from now, sorry to say. Until then.