Allied Lias Issadon

[L30n1d4s]

As I believe many on this forum already know, Lias Issason (FW Chapter Master for the Raptors) is a very capable character whose abilities are force multipliers for any army he is included in. While he can benefit any Imperial Army, I think he might be particularly effective as an ally to Grey Knights... here's why:

 

 

1 - Shrouded -- While he lacks the standard Iron Halo of a Chapter Master, he has permanent Shrouded, which is also confered to whatever unit he has joined. This is a particularly useful ability to confer to GK allies, whose elite status and low numbers mean that they need to maximize every boost in survivability that they can get. Imagine Issadon attached to a unit of 5-6 Paladins (with an Apothecary) that is Infiltrated (more about this later) into cover at the beginning of the game... at minimum, the whole unit would have a 2+ armor save and a 3++ cover save (2++ cover save if they can infiltrate into Ruins), plus the FNP from the Apothecary, making for a very solid "mini-deathstar" without breaking the bank or having to rely on psychic powers. Finally, based on his Chapter Tactics, if Issadon is with a unit made up completely of models without the Bulky/Very Bulky rule, he himself has Scout and Stealth the first turn of the game, which is in turn also conferred to his unit, further increasing its survivability (Stealth + Shrouded) and mobility (free 6" move before the game starts).

 

2 - Reserve Manipulation -- Issadon comes stock with the ability to allow his army to re-roll any reserve rolls (failed or successful), making him basically a "free" Comm relay... with the GK ability to Deep Strike, especially turn 1 with the Nemesis detachment, this means they go from a 66% chance of coming in to a 89% chance of coming in, which is a tremendous difference! On the flip side, if you want to delay your Reserves from coming in for whatever reason (say you want your Storm Ravens to come in after your enemy flyers do), Issadon's re-rolls allows you to have a better chance of holding them back until turn 4 (i.e. reduce them from a 66% chance of coming in to less than a 50% chance of coming in). Finally, Issadon gives a -1 modifer to your opponet's reserve rolls, which means you have a stronger chance of them not coming in until later ... again, given the low model count of most GK forces, this can maximize the number of troops you  have on the table versus the number of troops he has before the Reserves come in, allowing you to defeat him in detail, so to speak.

 

3 - Sabotage -- Alright, that is not actually the name of his special rule, but in essence that is what Issadon can do. Before the game begin, this ability let's Issadon's army get some free shooting attacks in a against a selected unit/MC or get some free Haywire rolls in on a selected enemy vehicle... not game breaking, but enough to be a difference maker (say you strip 2 HPs off that Wave Serpent loaded with Fire Dragons... turn 1, you use your Psycannons to finish off that last HP and suddenly he has one less Wave Serpent and the FDs are without a ride).

 

4 - Locator Beacon -- Given Issadon's ability to infiltrate (see his WL trait description below), having a Locator Beacon in his stock Wargear is a tremendous advantage to a GK force... infiltrate Issadon with a survivable unit like TH/SS Terminators or Centurions and then, turn 1, use him to bring in DSing Grey Knight units from the Nemesis detachment with no scatter. This can also be used to vector in Draigo and bodyguard using the Gates of Infinity power with no scatter since (unlike the Teleporter Homer), the Locator Beacon does indeed work on Gates of Infinity.

 

5 - Combat Ability -- While Issadon is no Draigo or Mephiston or Lysander, he has reasonable combat abilities in both shooting and close combat... with high initiative, Artificer Armor, plus a Power Sword and pistol combo, if he is attached to a GK unit with Hammerhand (for +2 Strength) he can do some solid damage against any unit without a 2+ save. Shooting wise, he has a special bolter that allows him to shoot Salvo 2/4 at long range or use Sternguard ammo, all at BS6, which can be a solid supplement to GK shooting. He does not have the Orbital Bombardment of a normal CM, but other than that he is a good "utility combatant" at both shooting and close combat, especially considering all the other abilities he brings.

 

6 - Space Marine Units/Honor Guard -- Besides allowing you access to normal SM ally toys (such as TFCs, Centurions, Storm Talons, Bikes, etc.), Issadon's detachment has the Raptor Chapter Tactics, which provide a moderate boost to Bolter shooting (Heavy 1 Rending if they stand still) and gives Stealth/Scout to any non-Bulky units on turn 1.... combined with GK Teleporter shunts (Dreadknights and Interceptors), 1st Turn Deep Striking (Nemesis detachment), and Gates of Infinity power, this can put a lot of SM and GK units in an opponent's face turn 1 before he has time to react or redeploy. Issadon also unlocks Honor Guard, which are great value for their points and can supplement GKs quite effectively.

 

7 - Infiltration -- I saved this for last, as it is the biggest advantage Issadon provides. If he is your Warlord, his automatic WL trait gives him and three friendly non-vehicle units Infiltrate, which is AMAZING.... imagine infiltrating Issadon, an attached Purifier squad, and two Dread Knights to within 18" of your opponent's battline before the game begins... turn 1 all your units unleash concentrated volleys of Psycannons/Storm Bolters, Heavy Incinerators templates, and Heavy Psycannon fire on up to three different enemy targets, followed by Cleansing Flame from the Purifiers in the Psychic Phase... very devastating and in subsequent turns these units are all quite potent in close combat as well.

 

This is just one example of how powerful the "mass infiltration" ability that Issadon brings to the table can be when used with Grey Knights.... other possibilities include infiltrating multiple Purgation Squads with maxed Incinerators, Infiltrating Castellan Crowe attached to SM Assault Terminators for a lethal close combat threat (Crowe uses Cleasing Flame to take down hordes, tanks any challenges, and gives the Assault Terminators +2S with Hammerhand). As you can see, there are many effective uses of this ability with Grey Knights. The only limitation is that Issadon must be your Warlord, so he cannot be in an Allied detachment, meaning that Grey Knights either have to use a second Combined Arms detachment, the Nemesis detachment, or be the Allied detachment themselves.

[Rurik the blessed]

Wow, this is a great discover... very nice, i would try it.

[Gentlemanloser]

And one of the reasons it's very hard to find folk who like to use FW.

I'd get one game of using him to Infiltrate three Squads.

Then it would be nope. Don't use him and possibly FW, ever again. Please.

(Edit: I'd probably Infiltrate Grav Centurion)

[Everon]

Where do you find this guy / tactics? Id be keen to try it

[Gentlemanloser]

http://www.millerandcarter.co.uk/millerandcartereppingforest/christmas/

Hmmm, no, that's a restaurant menu...

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/C/Charcterupdate.pdf

You can find the Raptors Chapter Tactics here;

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/F/FWchaptertactics.pdf

[Brom MKIV]

I agree issodon is amazing, I have used him and recently recommended him to RD. I have yet to try him with gk though. I would be tempted to infiltrate some purifiers or even some cents if not taking draigo. This way he essentially becomes a pseudo transport basically paying for himself. Add ls storm scouts for cheap mobile scoring.

[Happy-inquisitor]

This is a great one for the allies thread even if technically it only works with SM primary.

 

Infiltrating slow moving units that hit hard is his killer punch and GK certainly have units like that - purifiers mostly. Combined with reserves manipulation it gives you a full in-your-face capability right from the start.

 

It is worth considering Raptors techmarines so you can fully use cover to survive when/if your opponent seizes on you - they give stealth to the whole unit in addition to their usual trick with ruins. You do have to take SM troops and I would be happy enough with tacticals who can scout and camp with rending shooting or outflank to add to the fun on turn 2.

 

You do not quite get a null deploy list this way but you do get an infiltrate/scout/reserve list that deploys 2nd against pretty much everything and has great 1st turn survivability against most opponents with all those cover saves.

[Gentlemanloser]

Heavy 1 Rending Bolters are cool. :)

 

I'd prefer Scouts with Camo's using them though.

[Rurik the blessed]

In that document something catch my attention .

 

The red hunters, had no progenitor ( Unknown), this means we can use codex Grey Knights to represent what is based on?, Special rules are very useful for us. Adamantium will, and The possibility to choose Interceptor or sky-fire.

[Gentlemanloser]

Sadly not.

 

Anyone unknown can select a Chapter Tactic form Codex: Space Marines.

 

They can't use any Codex: Grey Knight rules.

 

Unless you're talking about counts-as, in which case, sure. :)

[Rurik the blessed]

Sadly not.

Anyone unknown can select a Chapter Tactic form Codex: Space Marines.

They can't use any Codex: Grey Knight rules.

Unless you're talking about counts-as, in which case, sure.

mhhh,... sad.... that would be great!. anyway... we always can ally!

[Happy-inquisitor]

I should point out that you can null deploy with Issadon and his reserve re-rolls still work. It would not be why I would put him in a list but it could be an option worth having.

[L30n1d4s]

Good points all around, appreciate everyone's input and feedback.

 

An example list I am looking at using this approach is as follows:

 

SM Combined Arms Detachment

HQ

-Lias Issadon

 

TR

-5 Scouts with CCW/BP and MB

-5 Scouts with CCW/BP and MB

 

HS

-5 Centurions

-Stormraven (TLed MM/Lascannon)

-Stormraven (TLed MM/Lascannon)

 

Fortification

-Vengeance Weapons Battery with 2 x Battle Cannons

------------------

GK Nemesis Strike Force Detachment

 

HQ

-Librarian (with Divination)

 

TR

-6 GK Terminators with Psycannon

 

HS

-Dreadknight with Hvy Incinerator and Hvy Psycannon

-Dreadknight with Hvy Incinerator and Hvy Psycannon

 

 

Issadon infilitrates himself, the Centurions, and the 2 Dreadknights to put significant shooting (and even close combat) pressure on the enemy turn 1. The Scouts ride the Stormravens (which provide anti-air/anti-vehicle support) and can seize objectives as required mid-late game. Librarian and GK Terminators come in turn 1-2 using Issadon's Locator Beacon to not scatter, further concentrating the combat power early game. Finally, the Vengeance Weapon Batteries provide cheap AP3 pie plates for long range fire support.

 

Overall, this force is low on models, but pretty much everything is a flyer or has a 2+ save, so unless the opponent has massed AP2 weapons (which are usually found on platforms that are vulnerable to the Grav Cannon Centurions), they should be able to absorb a lot of the enemy combat power.

 

[Quozzo]

Don't use an SM CAD, use an SM Allied Detachment so you only need one unit of scouts. You can still take Ravens from the GK NSFD. We can't spare the points to keep a squad of scouts in a Raven until the last turn, even if it is only 100 points.

[L30n1d4s]

Except, if he is part of an Allied Detachment, I don't think Issadon can be the WL, which means no infilitration, which is key to this list.

[Grand Imperator]

My apologies for a long post. I am taking a crack at this idea. Below is what will be covered:

 

I. Introduction

II. Army List (aiming for an 1850 and 2000 point list)

III. Tactics

IV. Broad Questions

 

I. Introduction

 

I am completely new to WH40K, so please feel free to give honest, frank feedback. I aim to learn, and I would like to know where holes are in this list (or possible lists) in relation to a tournament setting.

 

This is my crack at a list that blends the Raptors Chapter of Space Marines with Grey Knights. These are perhaps my two favorite groups fluff-wise, and I figured this thread was an opportunity to play with that. Here we go:

 

II. Army List

 

Primary Detachment: CAD Space Marines (Raptors). Since Lias Issodon is being used, he has to be the Warlord (meaning he can’t be an Allied Detachment? Also, we really want his Master of Ambush Warlord trait—it is potentially the primary thing that makes this list valuable).

 

HQ: Lias Issodon (175)

 

Troops:

Scouts x 5 (70)

-Camo Cloaks and Snipers

 

Scouts x 5 (70)

-Camo Cloaks and Snipers

 

And that’s it! I could include the Stormraven here, but I will include it below with the Grey Knights. I do not think there is any benefit to listing it anywhere, aside from how you want it painted.

--

Allied Detachment. Nemesis Strike Force

 

HQ: Librarian (145)

-ML 3, Stormbolter, Hammer

 

Troops:

Terminators x 10 (combat squadded as below):

 

Terminators x 5 (205)

-2 Psycannons

 

Terminators x 5 (191)

-4 Falchions, 1 Hammer

 

Elites:

Purifiers x 10 (will be combat squadded) (302)

-2 Hammers, 8 Falchions

 

Fast Attack:

Storm Raven (200)
TL MM, either TL AC or TL LC (this thing is primarily anti-air, with possibly anti-vehicle use)

 

Heavy Support:

Nemesis Deathknight x 2 (450)

-Heavy Psycannon, Heavy Incinerator, Sword

 

Total: 1,808 points (could fill in with various upgrades, OR):

 

Interest in potentially adding on (or replacing something above) with Devastator Centurions (3), with an omniscope, and 3x grav-cannon with grav-amps (260 points). If I cut 68 points of upgrades, I could fit these guys into a 2,000 point list. I imagine if somehow I wanted to get these guys into a 1,850 point list, then I would have to cut something above (perhaps one of the Terminator Squads, AND many upgrades?). I guess bringing a single combat squad of Purifiers is another option. Perhaps bringing the Devastator Centurions is actually a bad idea at 1850 points? What do you think?

ANY suggestions of how to fill out the 1808 to 1850, or whatever you think would make a good 1850 (and a 2000 point) list in contrast to what I have above is quite welcome!!!

 

III. Tactics

 

The idea would be to attach the Librarian (rolling exclusively Divination, if I am not mistaken) and Issodon to either 1) the Psycannon Terminators; or  2) if available, the Devastator Centurions. These would infiltrate along with the two combat squads of Purifiers and one Deathknight (I imagine the two combat squads would take up 2 of the 3 infiltrates from Issodon—if not, both Deathknights!).

 

The scouts would hold objectives/hide in cover/just do whatever they can. I imagine that everything else of mine on the board will be a much, much higher priority to my enemy. I wonder how useful/useless these two troops will be.

 

The non-Psycannon Terminators will deepstrike (hopefully turn 1 with Issodon’s re-rolls) in front of the Psycannon Terminators or the Devastator Centurions as a meatshield of sorts (or they can simply go wherever opportunity suggests they should go). They don’t scatter if they come in within 6” of Issodon’s unit.

Deathknights (shunting in), purifiers, and the Issodon/Librarian squad are all hopefully ideally positioned. That is perhaps the great strength of the list, and only one Stormraven (and possibly one set of Terminators) is waiting in reserves (with wonderful re-roll options to bring them in faster or slower as desired).

 

IV. Broad Questions

 

Are the Scouts completely useless? As it stands, does my list just really have 315 points of units that are mostly there to get off great positioning round 1? Should I be using something other than Scouts as my two troops choices (Tacs)? Should I be stripping down the Scouts to base, or doing something different with them?

 

Is Issodon’s warlord trait really a great way to deliver purifiers? Would I just be better off taking Draigo (245 points) and a single combat squad of purifiers (151 points with upgrades) and using gate of infinity? Am I better off just using a Stormraven and hoping that that it can get in soon enough to deliver 302 points of Purifiers? If using a Stormraven instead, should I strip the Purifiers down to base or put a single combat squad in there? Issodon and Draigo at least let the Warpcharge be available from Turn 1, although with Draigo I would imagine I would only attach him to 5 Purifiers (for only 2 WC).

 

Am I wasting Issodon’s Shrouded trait? Should I have him with Tac Marines in cover (instead of Scouts)? Should I have him with the Scouts with Sniper Rifles? He’s decent in close combat, but he seems best literally standing still in cover and firing off his 4 Salvo bolter.

 

Should I take a Land Speeder Storm as a dedicated transport for one set of Scouts (or both)? Is it worth it at all to have the Librarian have a Hammer (as opposed to say, two falchions? Won’t he die in most serious challenges before even swinging the hammer?). Is the Cuirass of Sacrifice a good choice for the Librarian at all?

 

Are two Stormtalons (caution: a bit more expensive) better than a Stormraven for this list?

 

What are the holes in this list (or any iterations you would suggest to make it better)? I am of course concerned about strong tournament lists, to the extent that I can adjust for that.

 

Thank you for your patience and taking the time on this long post. I hope you found reading it enjoyable, and I look forward to feedback of any kind!

[L30n1d4s]

@Grand Imperator

 

Good stuff and cheers for taking a solid crack at it like this ;)

 

Regarding Scouts, I have had a lot of succcess using 5 man squads of CCW/BP Scouts with a MB on the Sgt in Stormravens.... they are cheap, they provide some limited close combat ability (16 attacks on the charge) and anti-vehicle ability (4 Kraks and 1 MB) and they can drop out using Skies of Fury while the Stormraven is still Zooming to seize objectives (with Objective Secured rule). The Stormravens themselves provide strong anti-flyer and anti-vehicle (I go with the TLed MM, TLed Lascannon, and 4 Missile combo), which can also be used against elite enemy infantry (like Terminators and Nobz) when required or split-fired using POTMS to maximize shooting efficiency.

 

About Issadon, as mentioned, I think his Shrouding is one of his best abilities. If you infilitrate him with a non-TDA unit (like purifiers), then first turn he also gets Stealth (from Raptor chapter tactics), which of course is conferred to his unit, so between Stealth/Shrouded he gives himself and his unit a 4+ cover save in the open and a 2+ cover save in basic cover turn 1, which is great for surviving to deliver that Alpha Strike.

[Grand Imperator]

Thanks for the response! I guess the Scouts could have some actual combat use the way you equip them, with the only disadvantage being waiting for the Stormraven (though Issodon's re-rolls help with that!).

 

I had a suggestion from a reddit thread I posted with the same list of putting the Purifiers in a Rhino so that I could infiltrate Issodon's unit, both Deathknights, and the Rhino with the Purifiers in it (the Rhino being a dedicated transport and therefore a "troop"). Is this rules legal? Also, could I combat squad the purifiers? I imagine I would not be able to, assuming this would be a legal move. Nonetheless, this is seems to be a neat idea to me.