Can a pure Grey Knights army ever win?

[Captain Laavain Sunder]

Sorry if this has been covered before... but I picked my grey knight book army up yesterday (full of excitement) to get back to my friends house and not only have the book slated by him, but the entirety of the Internet world.

 

He then proceeded to show me how the grey knights also get smashed in most the of battle reports posted in youtube.

 

All this has kind of disheartened me with playing them. They always seem to lose :/ I love the mmodels... but I don't want to lose every time with them :(

 

Has anyone else ever felt like this??

[Everon]

Ive actually only lost 2 games as pure knights out of a bunch. Alpha strikes ftw. Pure knights are how I prefer it. Only allies I take when necessary are imperial knights

[Captain Laavain Sunder]

That's great to hear :) but can you see why I may be off put? There's only so much the lore and model love can take!

 

"Grey knights can't deal with Armour 2+. They can't deal with tanks... blah blah blah. Look at all these battle reports they lost! " that's all I've had for like 9 hours :/

[Captain Coolpants]

I've only felt like that going against an army like tau.

 

And tanks are easy for us! Just have 2 dreadknights!. Although they'll fail miserably if your opponent spams plasma haha.

 

But we do seem to be more of an ally codex now...

 

And it is extremely easy for your opponent to tailor his/her list to go against us as we only have like 2 viable lists...

 

But Tis only a game! Haha. If you wanna enter competitions and stuff then don't go near our codex... At all.... (unless we're an ally)

But if it's just for fun, then proceed to practice until you dominate that guy who told you you'd always fail!

[Lil_Tiki_Boy]

There is a guy on the challenge the scorpion channel on youtube that plays grey knights and hasn't lost yet. At least not that has been recorded.

 

I run pure grey knights and I win about half my games, but I only have one dreadknight and one terminator squad so far. I do have another dreadknight and terminator squad on order which should definitely help. The rest of my army is pagk that has a tendency to get blown away before it can really do anything, except for the interceptors, they still hurt things a bit.

[raverrn]

Seriously?

 

:cussing: seriously?

 

Either that's hyperbole or you're an idiot.

 

(No, Grey Knights are a mid-to-upper tier army with the downside of very few options)

[ChaoticEric]

Depends on your playstyle if you'll enjoy it or not. If you enjoy fielding few but elite models, deep striking and the psychic phase you're in for a treat. If you enjoy hordes, sitting back and shooting your enemies to death or a huge variety of builds and units to field, it might not be your cup of tea.

 

You'll still enjoy fielding the army where your heart is rather than one that's at the top at the moment.

 

The new codex left our army a bit thin and with a limited number of viable builds. Most builds seem to center around dreadknights, terminators and purifiers in different combinations. If you like more variety, there are probably better things out there for you.

 

However, if you want to get started quickly it's as easy as getting yourself two dreadknights, two boxes of terminators, one box of ten power armour knights which you'll assemble as purifiers and then either a librarian or a brother captain/grand master and you've got a good base to start with.

[Captain Coolpants]

Yeah, we're probably one of the cheapest armies to buy, only need a few boxes, give them some upgrades and you've got yourself over 1000pts lol

[jeffersonian000]

Ive actually only lost 2 games as pure knights out of a bunch. Alpha strikes ftw. Pure knights are how I prefer it. Only allies I take when necessary are imperial knights

Yep, me too. The only non-GK units I bring are the occasional Imperial Knights or the Skyhammer Formation (Talobs painted to match my GK Stormraven). GK are best Deep Striking for board control the getting into close range with the enemy ASAP.

 

SJ

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Yes it can win. Any army in 40k can technically win a game. 

[Gentlemanloser]

Make your mate face an Unbound 9 NDK pure GK army.

 

Then see what he says.

[jeffersonian000]

If you play GK like vanilla Space Marines, yes, failure is in your future. GK aren't Nilla Marines. You need to play GK aggressively, get into your opponent's deployment zone turn 1, a be all "I'm in your base, killing your dudes!" GK survive by being disruptive, forcing the pace of the game, putting your opponent into the role of reacting to what you do rather than you reacting to your opponent. The current GK codex encourage such play with the Nemesis Strike Force, Rites of Teleportation, Personal Teleporters, and TDA Troops. Sanctic Psychic powers are all about utility, buffing your dudes, de-buffing the enemy, and dropping game-changers like Vortex or Gate

 

Playing GK is playing an army of superheroes, pushing back the dark tide with the Light!

 

We win by playing a different meta than our opponents. They play to win. We play to prevent them from winning. Different strategy, different mind set.

 

SJ

[Reclusiarch Darius]

I agree with Jeff. We can't camp on objectives like other armies, or mech up, or played a pure ranged game. Wrong army to be doing that with. It's like building an infantry list with DE or something. 

 

Nemesis Strikeforce is really the only way to play GK now. Forget 'Objective Secured', the only objective our army has is wipe out. Turn 1 land in their lines and ruin their day, proceed to clean up their ground forces (without Allies you just have to ignore Flyers/FMC's for the most part, shoot them with Ravens but that's about it). Sadly GW have made some armies supremely good at countering this style of list (oh hai Tau), so we'll never be a tournament army. 

[Happy-inquisitor]

Are you going to get a 100% win ratio with GK at the Nova open? Nope.

 

Is any army other than Eldar going to get a 100% win ratio at the Nova open? Nope.

 

 

So if you never ever want to lose GK are the wrong army. That does not mean you will never win, played well (aggressively) GK are effective against a wide variety of opponents. Against Daemons they are brutal. Against xenos it will be hard work getting wins and will feel all the more rewarding when you do.

[TheGoldenThrone]

However, if you want to get started quickly it's as easy as getting yourself two dreadknights, two boxes of terminators, one box of ten power armour knights which you'll assemble as purifiers and then either a librarian or a brother captain/grand master and you've got a good base to start with.

Here, here! I would add to this that if you magnetize the backpacks and personal teleporters of that 10-man Power Armor set, you can add a lot of versatility to your army without more models. Purifiers can be played as Strike Squads, or they can become Interceptors with a backpack change. It would be nice to also magnetize the heavy weapons, but that's a bit more complicated and not really necessary.

 

I, too, started a GK army recently. And I have wrestled with the same discouragement that's being dumped on you. But if you're willing to play all up in your opponent's grill, I think you'll find your army gets a lot of respect. Even if you don't win, you'll likely put the fear of the Emperor in him -- and he won't soon forget it. And as you gain more skill (and this is an army that takes better-than-average skills as a General -- you know, those skills that get better with experience), your Grey Knights will become even more respected. Ultimately, I decided it would make me a better General to learn the game playing a more challenging army. Well that plus the fact that, like you, I love the models and the elite nature of Grey Knights -- even if sometimes they don't look very elite as they get wiped off the table in a bad match-up.

 

Out of curiosity, what army (or armies) does your GK-dissing friend(s play?

 

Edit: Clarity

[Hidicul]

The only game I lost with my GK was with allies, but I took CSM allies to handicap myself. I haven't faced either Elder dex yet, but I've beaten the tau a few times as pure GK.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

 

The only game I lost with my GK was with allies, but I took CSM allies to handicap myself. I haven't faced either Elder dex yet, but I've beaten the tau a few times as pure GK. 

 

 

I dunno. Aside from the MAXIMUM HERESY aspect of it, CSM are pretty strong for an Ally (their power units are at least). Eldar would probably table you though. 

 

What lists did you take and what lists did the Tau player take? Tau can be incredibly weak if built wrong. 

[shortysl]

Apologies this seems to be hijacking the thread though my comment is along the lines of the OP's comment:

 

I'm seeing a lot of people say that Grey Knights who sit at range are going to lose; that they have to get into enemy deployment and start disrupting plans in order to win. I have an Apocalypse game coming up in two weeks. It'll be 3000 points of my Knights alongside 6000 points of Guard fighting against a 9000 point combined Ork/Eldar army. My plan was to lace my units in amongst the Guard units to provide melee protection for them and to prevent me from getting overwhelmed but it's seeming like this is the wrong way to go.

 

I'm under no illusions that we can win the game but am I planning on using my Knights incorrectly?

[raverrn]

Apologies this seems to be hijacking the thread though my comment is along the lines of the OP's comment:

 

I'm seeing a lot of people say that Grey Knights who sit at range are going to lose; that they have to get into enemy deployment and start disrupting plans in order to win. I have an Apocalypse game coming up in two weeks. It'll be 3000 points of my Knights alongside 6000 points of Guard fighting against a 9000 point combined Ork/Eldar army. My plan was to lace my units in amongst the Guard units to provide melee protection for them and to prevent me from getting overwhelmed but it's seeming like this is the wrong way to go.

 

I'm under no illusions that we can win the game but am I planning on using my Knights incorrectly?

To stick it to the monolist, I've had a lot of tournament success lately with a list that consists of 4+ terminator units behind an Aegis line, with a Warhound titan behind that. The idea is the Titan drives your opponent into psycannon range where he can be torn apart and then charged. If your guard serve a similar purpose you should be very all right.

[jeffersonian000]

Apologies this seems to be hijacking the thread though my comment is along the lines of the OP's comment:

 

I'm seeing a lot of people say that Grey Knights who sit at range are going to lose; that they have to get into enemy deployment and start disrupting plans in order to win. I have an Apocalypse game coming up in two weeks. It'll be 3000 points of my Knights alongside 6000 points of Guard fighting against a 9000 point combined Ork/Eldar army. My plan was to lace my units in amongst the Guard units to provide melee protection for them and to prevent me from getting overwhelmed but it's seeming like this is the wrong way to go.

 

I'm under no illusions that we can win the game but am I planning on using my Knights incorrectly?

I would reserve everyone of your Deep Strike capable GK units as part of one of the GK codex detachments, and start bringing them in Turn 1 on your opponent's side of the board, generally behind enemy units that can block LoS from other enemy units. This will disrupt your opponent's strategy while taking focus away from your Guard player's units. If your opponent wipes you off the board, your Allie will still have free reign to literally rain death on the Xeno scum. If your opponent does not focus on your GK, then you have free reign to cause as much disruption as possible. Most likely your opponent will split his attention between your two forces, weakening his ability to deal with both of your armies ... which means you have succeeded in disrupting his strategy.

 

But that's how I'd play it.

 

SJ

[Captain Coolpants]

Yeah deepstriking in your opponents face in an Apocalypse game sounds good in theory, I highly doubt that your opponent would even risk sending any D pie plates their way. But then again, if your opponent has loads of chaff units, then you will get spam shot instantly!

[Lil_Tiki_Boy]

That's kinda the point Jbat, our units are tougher and take more of a pounding then the IG. I had a game against Tau and it took almost 90 shots from them to kill a 5 man squad of terminators and my librarian, so even if the GKs get spam shot to death, that's a lot of firepower not being directed at the IG who are then free to rain death down upon their opponents. Either that or their opponents might try to focus on the IG instead and allow the GKs to run rampant through their lines, which is what we do best. A Grey Knights best defense is a ridiculous offense after all. :)

[Everon]

Wait.. grey knights be meat shields for the guard?holy heresy batman! But yeah sounds like a sound strat to let the xenos bleed.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

I'm seeing a lot of people say that Grey Knights who sit at range are going to lose; that they have to get into enemy deployment and start disrupting plans in order to win. I have an Apocalypse game coming up in two weeks. It'll be 3000 points of my Knights alongside 6000 points of Guard fighting against a 9000 point combined Ork/Eldar army. My plan was to lace my units in amongst the Guard units to provide melee protection for them and to prevent me from getting overwhelmed but it's seeming like this is the wrong way to go.

 

I'm under no illusions that we can win the game but am I planning on using my Knights incorrectly?

 

You're wasting time milling around with Guard in your DZ. In Apoc, I'd be taking as many Terminators and DK's as you can lay your hands on, and Deepstriking Turn 1 into enemy lines. Let the Guard handle shooting and holding objectives, its what they excel at. Yes, they suck at melee, but by putting your Knights in enemy lines Turn 1, you'll re-direct assault units towards them. 

 

In an Apoc game our Terminators are scary as hell, especially if you take enough hammers mixed in to threaten super-heavies (S10 hammers under 'Hammerhand' annhilate Titans, Shadoswords etc). DK's are likewise insanely dangerous to super-heavies, as they cost a fraction what their target does, but they can one-round them with decent rolls. 

[Adeptus]

I can understand the disappointment of buying the new codex. It's not a good codex.

 

But your friend is wrong. My win/loss ratio has improved under the new codex. Our good units are very good. It's just that we have a lot of dead weight in the codex that no one will ever use. I fought a battle with my Grey Knights the other day, and had a great time. On the drive home I thought to myself "That was great. Next time I might change my list by..." and then I frowned. Because besides a few minor tweaks, any changes to my list would drastically hurt it's potential. I could swap out some Terminators for Strike Squads, or I could leave a Dreadknight or two at home and take some Purgators or Landraiders. But these options hamstring my list in a non-trivial way. They would make it very hard to win games.

 

And that was the moment that I decided to really concentrate on my Imperial Guard force and get it off the ground so I could have a different army to play with. Because Grey Knights are a really fun, but effectively the only units in the codex are Terminators, Dreadknights, Stormravens and Librarians. And playing a codex with only four units gets pretty old, pretty fast.