Can a pure Grey Knights army ever win?

[Reclusiarch Darius]

But your friend is wrong. My win/loss ratio has improved under the new codex. Our good units are very good. It's just that we have a lot of dead weight in the codex that no one will ever use. I fought a battle with my Grey Knights the other day, and had a great time. On the drive home I thought to myself "That was great. Next time I might change my list by..." and then I frowned. Because besides a few minor tweaks, any changes to my list would drastically hurt it's potential. I could swap out some Terminators for Strike Squads, or I could leave a Dreadknight or two at home and take some Purgators or Landraiders. But these options hamstring my list in a non-trivial way. They would make it very hard to win games.

 

They're good, but we still have nothing in par with Necrons, Eldar, Tau or CSM. Their power units blow ours out of the water, even DK's are relatively balanced compared to something like a Nurgle Prince, Heldrake, Serpent, AB, Riptide etc. I agree entirely with our codex being boring. It really is. I've tried writing different lists but we just don't have the points to waste on 'maybe' units. 

And that was the moment that I decided to really concentrate on my Imperial Guard force and get it off the ground so I could have a different army to play with. Because Grey Knights are a really fun, but effectively the only units in the codex are Terminators, Dreadknights, Stormravens and Librarians. And playing a codex with only four units gets pretty old, pretty fast. 

 

Don't forget Purifiers ;) so actually 5 units. At least they're a solid basis for an army, even if it means most of our lists look identical barring minor variations. And the Nemesis Strikeforce is incredibly good, its everything we've been asking for since 3rd edition. 

 

The point is, I think its exceedingly obvious we're an Ally codex first, pure codex second. Stormtrooper armies are in the same boat, they do really well at an alpha strike...but then have no staying power to even basic anti-infantry attention. At least our TDA and PA means we're still around longer, and unlike Scions we hit hard in melee. 

 

Maybe try playing your Knights with IG? They compliment eachother really well, and IG can be somewhat varied in their builds (mech Vets, Bullgryn Deathstar, Tank Company, Air Cav etc). 

[Gentlemanloser]

 

 

its everything we've been asking for since 3rd edition

 

Speak for yourself! :P

 

I wanted something on par with DWA/DPA.  Backed by Scouting/Infiltrating Locator Beacons! ;)

[raverrn]

 

its everything we've been asking for since 3rd edition

Speak for yourself! :P

 

I wanted something on par with DWA/DPA. Backed by Scouting/Infiltrating Locator Beacons! ;)

Bah, that's dumb. We're in a much better spot than Deathwing armies on the strength of our terminators alone.

[Zembar]

And that was the moment that I decided to really concentrate on my Imperial Guard force and get it off the ground so I could have a different army to play with. Because Grey Knights are a really fun, but effectively the only units in the codex are Terminators, Dreadknights, Stormravens and Librarians. And playing a codex with only four units gets pretty old, pretty fast.

Don't forget Purifiers so actually 5 units. At least they're a solid basis for an army, even if it means most of our lists look identical barring minor variations. And the Nemesis Strikeforce is incredibly good, its everything we've been asking for since 3rd edition.

Interceptors are nice sometimes as well, so it's six! And two of them even compete for a slot, meaning there are some really tough decisions to make!

[Sixcyl]

Sorry if this has been covered before... but I picked my grey knight book army up yesterday (full of excitement) to get back to my friends house and not only have the book slated by him, but the entirety of the Internet world.

He then proceeded to show me how the grey knights also get smashed in most the of battle reports posted in youtube.

All this has kind of disheartened me with playing them. They always seem to lose :/ I love the mmodels... but I don't want to lose every time with them

Has anyone else ever felt like this??

I'm still relatively new but I can tell you that deep striking your termies on turn one, shunting interceptors, a NDK, and moving up a whole combat squadded 10 man purifier unit in a land raider is not easy to fight against. Alternatively I use a libby with GoI to gate the purifiers up. People tend not to know who to shoot for first so in the chaos you can pick out high value targets. Just remember, the game type is always purge the alien with an alpha strike.

I have lost a few games, typically a combination of bad reserve rolls and terrible psychic rolls which leave me sitting there. But even then, taking out a NDK with other knights surrounding it is no small feat.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

moving up a whole combat squadded 10 man purifier unit in a land raider

 

That's not how to spell 'Storm Raven' ;)

Alternatively I use a libby with GoI to gate the purifiers up

 

That's not how you spell 'Draigo' either lol. Don't take Sanctic on Librarians, please. They're our only way to get Divination. 

People tend not to know who to shoot for first so in the chaos you can pick out high value targets. Just remember, the game type is always purge the alien with an alpha strike. 

 

Agreed. Projecting threat into their face with your entire army tends to lead to panicky 'shoot everything at that thing' moments where the enemy waste firepower. Also 100% agree about game plan. We don't camp objectives, or tootle around the board being functionally invulnerable. Get in, smash face, and get into melee ASAP. Table wipes are actually quite hard to achieve these days, but so long as you wipe out the most powerful enemy units, ending the game with them unable to take objectives off you or kill you off is also ideal. 

I have lost a few games, typically a combination of bad reserve rolls and terrible psychic rolls which leave me sitting there. But even then, taking out a NDK with other knights surrounding it is no small feat.

 

I've found the Comms Relay absolutely essential for us these days. Its the cheapest and easiest way to get re-rolls to Reserves, and Aegis Lines can't be blown up either (which is the issue with bunkers and other building fortifications). Considering our army resembles a Kill-Team most of the time (ie sub-30 models), getting it all in enemy lines Turn 1 via Deepstrike and Shunt moves is pretty huge. 

[Adeptus]

That's not how you spell 'Draigo' either lol. Don't take Sanctic on Librarians, please. They're our only way to get Divination.

I think you misspelled "Inquisitor"

I take an Inquisitor in most lists for Servo Skulls, an extra psycannon and Prescience. I also often take Sanctic on my Librarian because it's thematic and there's still some cool powers in there that it doesn't hurt to double up on. It sucks if you roll up an extra Hammerhand, and our default power is useless, but having an extra Cleansing Flame is good, and if you get Gate, Vortex, Purge Soul or Sanctuary then you're laughing.

[Gentlemanloser]

 

 

I think you misspelled "Inquisitor"

 

LoL!

 

PWN'd! ;)

 

:D

[Reclusiarch Darius]

I think you misspelled "Inquisitor"

Well he was talking about 'Gating' stuff after maybe rolling it on a Libby. I don't find I have points for Inquisitors these days. Not even Coteaz :(

I take an Inquisitor in most lists for Servo Skulls, an extra psycannon and Prescience. I also often take Sanctic on my Librarian because it's thematic and there's still some cool powers in there that it doesn't hurt to double up on. It sucks if you roll up an extra Hammerhand, and our default power is useless, but having an extra Cleansing Flame is good, and if you get Gate, Vortex, Purge Soul or Sanctuary then you're laughing.

That's my issue with Sanctic. The primaris might as well read 'hahaha sucks to be you man', and 'Hammerhand' and 'Purge Soul' are bleh. 'Vortex' is really risky. It's really just 'Gate' you are fishing for, and given Draigo has it as a set power, I dunno why you'd ever do that. 'Cleansing Flame' is done by Purifiers or Crowe (if you're crazy like that).

Divination is so much better man. Our consistent problem is that of all Marines; we hit most things on 3's but bad rolls leave us at sea (ie we don't have enough units or shots to afford misses). Not to mention every Divination power screams 'oh Throne yes I will cast that', whereas Sanctic is mostly like 'already have that, never use that, meh, meh, oh cool free teleporter'.

[Captain Coolpants]

TRUTH!

[Rurik the blessed]

I think you misspelled "Inquisitor"

Well he was talking about 'Gating' stuff after maybe rolling it on a Libby. I don't find I have points for Inquisitors these days. Not even Coteaz

I take an Inquisitor in most lists for Servo Skulls, an extra psycannon and Prescience. I also often take Sanctic on my Librarian because it's thematic and there's still some cool powers in there that it doesn't hurt to double up on. It sucks if you roll up an extra Hammerhand, and our default power is useless, but having an extra Cleansing Flame is good, and if you get Gate, Vortex, Purge Soul or Sanctuary then you're laughing.

That's my issue with Sanctic. The primaris might as well read 'hahaha sucks to be you man', and 'Hammerhand' and 'Purge Soul' are bleh. 'Vortex' is really risky. It's really just 'Gate' you are fishing for, and given Draigo has it as a set power, I dunno why you'd ever do that. 'Cleansing Flame' is done by Purifiers or Crowe (if you're crazy like that).

Divination is so much better man. Our consistent problem is that of all Marines; we hit most things on 3's but bad rolls leave us at sea (ie we don't have enough units or shots to afford misses). Not to mention every Divination power screams 'oh Throne yes I will cast that', whereas Sanctic is mostly like 'already have that, never use that, meh, meh, oh cool free teleporter'.

I wouldn't be so sure about that... Sanctic is a very good choice for a lvl3 librarian. (if you combine it with liber daemonica, it's even better), 3 or 4 selections on this psychic powers would give you in most cases, Sanctuary, Cleansing flame and Gate of infinity... If you compare points between these and Draigo... it will give you some important points to invest in something else.

Edit: Remember that Draigo is LOW. so you will need a mandatory HQ. so... why not take two librarians, one for Sanctic and second for Divination. the points would be almost same as Draigo and a librarian (cheapest mandatory HQ)

[raverrn]

Sanctic is a VERY nice powerset. It has two dead powers, but one is the Primaris, so it encourages splitting up between sets.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

I wouldn't be so sure about that... Sanctic is a very good choice for a lvl3 librarian. (if you combine it with liber daemonica, it's even better), 3 or 4 selections on this psychic powers would give you in most cases, Sanctuary, Cleansing flame and Gate of infinity... If you compare points between these and Draigo... it will give you some important points to invest in something else.

 

Or, you could take Draigo. The reason he's expensive is because you get a combat god (srsly, there are a handful of other heroes in the game who can even stand a chance against him), and a tough meatshield to tank AP2 and high Strength wounds on. I don't see the point in denying yourself Divination access for the off chance you roll 'Gate'. If 'Gate' was still Biomancy, we wouldn't even be arguing about this. None of you would be fishing for 'Cleansing Flame' or 'Purge Soul'. 

Edit: Remember that Draigo is LOW. so you will need a mandatory HQ. so... why not take two librarians, one for Sanctic and second for Divination. the points would be almost same as Draigo and a librarian (cheapest mandatory HQ)

 

Or, I could take two with Divination, and get almost all the powers from that lore (there is literally one power we might never cast, 'Scrier's Gaze', and thats only because we usually take Comms Arrays and we Deepstrike Turn 1). 

 

Sanctic is a VERY nice powerset. It has two dead powers, but one is the Primaris, so it encourages splitting up between sets.

 

 

No it isn't. We already get all the useful powers on our squads. 'Purge Soul' is not worth giving up access to Divination. I would rather have guaranteed 'Prescience' and then 2-3 amazing powers, than fish for 'Gate' and sigh when I roll anything else. 

 

 

This is a classic example of oppertunity cost. And before people bring up Inquisitors bringing Divination, remember that a typical TDA Inquisitor clocks in at around what a Libby does (and is only Mastery 1, although he has an extra wound and a psycannon, so it evens out). Divination is the best lore in the game, hands down, no question. Re-rolls, Ignore Cover, full BS on Overwatch+Counterattack (that power is disgusting on Purifiers), psyker re-rolls everything, anyone shooting at that enemy unit gets free Rending...and a Reserves power that we might never use but it's still stupid good. Sanctic doesn't hold a candle to Divination, especially when we already get 'Hammerhand' and 'Cleansing Flame' (arguably the least situational powers) for free. 

[Adeptus]

I get what you're saying, but I don't think it's really that cut and dried. A lot of the time Rending won't be useful, a lot of the time your targets won't be in cover, re-rolling stuff with your psyker is pretty useless on a librarian, scriers gaze has severely limited utility for us, and so on. Gate is always useful, Cleansing Flame is awesome, Sanctuary is almost necessary for some squads. I know I'm casting it a lot. I still don't like Purifiers enough to include them in most games. They lost a lot of their attraction when they lost Psycannons, so if I want cleansing flame I need a Librarian. Purge Soul is nice for picking out enemy models as a focused witchfire power with only a cost of 1, and is also good for stripping wounds of things that can otherwise be quite tough like Tau suits.

 

It's frustrating to roll Hammerhand since you effectively can't ever use it, but no less frustrating to roll Scrier's Gaze and have no reserves left to roll for. Since I'm always taking an Inquisitor anyway for an extra Psycannon, Servo Skulls and a cheap Henchmen squad to man my comms relay (not to mention his 3 wounds gives him more resilience to Perils) I already have access to Prescience and one other Psychic power. I don't feel like it's that important to also take Prescience on my Librarian and the option for Gate, Sanctuary or Cleansing Flame is definitely worth it to me.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

A lot of the time Rending won't be useful,

 

Wat. The only time its not useful is when you shoot psycannons. On literally every other gun (storm bolters, incinerators etc), 'Misfortune' is hilarious. I do miss the old 'force them to re-roll saves', but that was kinda stupid. Rending is chancy but we have enough shots to make it proc reasonably often. 

a lot of the time your targets won't be in cover,

 

You are kidding right? Nurgle Princes, Tau Devilfish, Eldar Serpents, Flyers...not to mention things like Aegis Lines and smoke launchers. Cover saves are very much part of the meta. Most armies don't have strong invulnerable saves, or even especially good armour saves. Cover saves are their crutch, which you can completely negate at will. Especially true for vehicles. 

re-rolling stuff with your psyker is pretty useless on a librarian

 

Re-rolling saves is a big deal, and with falchions a Librarian is actually a pretty scary customer (certainly more so than most support psykers). 'Precognition' isn't something I cast all the time, but its devastating in the right situations. It is a lot better on a Grand Master, I agree, but re-rolls are re-rolls. Even his 5+ invul can be mitigated by it. 

scriers gaze has severely limited utility for us

 

Which I already pointed out, and I agree with. However, you only have a 1/6 chance of getting it, ie the same odds of getting 'Gate' from Sanctic. 

Gate is always useful

 

Agreed, but its only one power in six, and you have to fish for it without taking Draigo. 

Cleansing Flame is awesome

 

But Purifiers already have it

Sanctuary is almost necessary for some squads.

 

Its nice but it generally only boosts you to a 4+ invul, which is less good on infantry. The reason its so good on DK's is because wounding them in the first place requires high Strength and AP2, which won't be common, and they can fail three such saves and still be 100% a problem. Lower Strength AP2 however (or even just plasma, which only wounds DK's on 3's but wounds infantry on 2's, a big jump) reks our infantry, and even with 'Sanctuary' up you still fail 1/2 the time, which means a dead Knight. 

I still don't like Purifiers enough to include them in most games.

 

I sympathise. They require Ravens, which eats even more heavily into our points. However, if you want 'Cleansing Flame', that's where you get it 100% of the time, not on some random roll on a Librarian. 

They lost a lot of their attraction when they lost Psycannons, so if I want cleansing flame I need a Librarian.

 

Eh, psycannon duties have been shifted to Troops and Heavy Support now. Purifiers are still great at thinning out hordes and being an assault unit (they're Terminators minus TDA saves). If you want 'Cleansing Flame' take them. A combat squad is only barely more than a Librarian anyway. 

urge Soul is nice for picking out enemy models as a focused witchfire power with only a cost of 1, and is also good for stripping wounds of things that can otherwise be quite tough like Tau suits.

 

The problem is that its random, same as 'Psychic Shriek' from Telepathy. You have to manifest, hit your target, have them fail the test and then actually die to the wounds you inflict. Plinking a few wounds off a Riptide or killing a Crisis Suit or two isn't that good a return on investment. It's a very cornercase ability that eats charges better spent on buffing your actual guns to kill stuff. 

It's frustrating to roll Hammerhand since you effectively can't ever use it, but no less frustrating to roll Scrier's Gaze and have no reserves left to roll for. 

 

Yeah they're usually both dead powers. However, Sanctic gets worse because it has a dead Primaris, two powers we always have by default, a defensive spell that is situationally brilliant, a risky sniper spell, a dangerous and costly nuke, and a great mobility spell. Divination has an incredibly powerful Primaris (not least of which because it applies in the enemy turn), and only has one power you'd never ever use normally (Scier's). All the others you'll cast at some point of the game, and some of them can be clutch plays (Ignore Cover when shooting psycannons at Serpents for example). 

Since I'm always taking an Inquisitor anyway for an extra Psycannon, Servo Skulls and a cheap Henchmen squad to man my comms relay (not to mention his 3 wounds gives him more resilience to Perils) I already have access to Prescience and one other Psychic power. I don't feel like it's that important to also take Prescience on my Librarian and the option for Gate, Sanctuary or Cleansing Flame is definitely worth it to me. 

 

Well the problem is only having one source of re-rolls, so only one unit (and several of the Divination powers are psyker+unit only) gets buffed, and if you lose the psyker you have no backup. It's why a lot of lists I take now are double Nemesis Strikeforce, and I have a Librarian attached to each Terminator squad ensuring they're operating efficiently. Inquisitors are only T3, its annoying to get insta-gibbed by a random S6 wound. I'd rather attach Inquisitors to Terminators and get aggressive, but its hard to find points for them after our core has been filled. 

 

I'm finding Henchmen really hard to incorporate, now that we're forced to take Terminator Troops. Before 7th I did it because it let me cheaply fill mandatory Troops, now with Turn 1 Deepstrike being pushed hard and the rest of my list being so durable...they're just gonna attract all the anti-infantry people don't wanna waste on Knights. Even in matchups like Nids, there is some kind of artillery or long-range anti-infantry firepower that just splats T3 dudes trying to hide in cover. I still think they're great, but not for us. Marines or IG I think get more out of Henchmen these days, as they have better synergy. 

[Adeptus]

Wat. The only time its not useful is when you shoot psycannons. On literally every other gun (storm bolters, incinerators etc), 'Misfortune' is hilarious.

 

Depends on your target though, doesn't it. Rending only comes in to play on a 6 to wound (or armour pen) and by then, a lot of the time you've already wounded. Sure, you're ignoring their armour but if they've got any kind of cover then they're still getting their saves. And if they didn't have 4+ or better armour to start with, then you're not getting any utility out of the power. It's great against some targets, but other times it will make no difference to your shooting phase.

 

You are kidding right? Nurgle Princes, Tau Devilfish, Eldar Serpents, Flyers...not to mention things like Aegis Lines and smoke launchers. Cover saves are very much part of the meta. Most armies don't have strong invulnerable saves, or even especially good armour saves. Cover saves are their crutch, which you can completely negate at will. Especially true for vehicles.

 

And just as often they'll be plonking their dudes down in the middle of the table and relying on their armour saves and invulnerable saves. Again, it's a situational power. Much like Cleansing Flame, except not as good.

 

Re-rolling saves is a big deal, and with falchions a Librarian is actually a pretty scary customer (certainly more so than most support psykers). 'Precognition' isn't something I cast all the time, but its devastating in the right situations. It is a lot better on a Grand Master, I agree, but re-rolls are re-rolls. Even his 5+ invul can be mitigated by it.

You don't really give your Librarian falchions, do you? Precognition just doesn't blow my hair back. My Librarian is already in a squad so he's pretty safe from incoming fire. Anything that really scares him is going to ID him and ignore his armour anyway, so what good is re-rolling my saves? I'd much prefer a 4++ for my whole unit from Sanctuary, all day erry day.

 

Its nice but it generally only boosts you to a 4+ invul, which is less good on infantry. The reason its so good on DK's is because wounding them in the first place requires high Strength and AP2, which won't be common, and they can fail three such saves and still be 100% a problem. Lower Strength AP2 however (or even just plasma, which only wounds DK's on 3's but wounds infantry on 2's, a big jump) reks our infantry, and even with 'Sanctuary' up you still fail 1/2 the time, which means a dead Knight.

I find Sanctuary so useful it's crazy. When your entire army has a 2+ save, people start to sweat. And when fully half of all the wounds they manage to do with their plasma and other AP2 weapons are saved anyway, they really sweat.

 

Eh, psycannon duties have been shifted to Troops and Heavy Support now. Purifiers are still great at thinning out hordes and being an assault unit (they're Terminators minus TDA saves). If you want 'Cleansing Flame' take them. A combat squad is only barely more than a Librarian anyway.

I'm just not that hot on them. They can't deepstrike, have no staying power, and lost the ability to shoot effectively. I'm not about to drop 500+ points on them and a raven just to get cleansing flame. I mean, it's not like I hate them, they're still a good choice, but I'd almost always prefer another unit of Terminators or another Dreadknight over a unit of Purifiers.

 

The problem is that its random, same as 'Psychic Shriek' from Telepathy. You have to manifest, hit your target, have them fail the test and then actually die to the wounds you inflict. Plinking a few wounds off a Riptide or killing a Crisis Suit or two isn't that good a return on investment. It's a very cornercase ability that eats charges better spent on buffing your actual guns to kill stuff.

Yeah, but it's not a dead power like Scrier's Gaze is, or as naff as Precognition IMO. It's still a handy power for a single warp charge.

 

 

Well the problem is only having one source of re-rolls, so only one unit (and several of the Divination powers are psyker+unit only) gets buffed, and if you lose the psyker you have no backup. It's why a lot of lists I take now are double Nemesis Strikeforce, and I have a Librarian attached to each Terminator squad ensuring they're operating efficiently. Inquisitors are only T3, its annoying to get insta-gibbed by a random S6 wound. I'd rather attach Inquisitors to Terminators and get aggressive, but its hard to find points for them after our core has been filled.

 

Well, I find that what you use in redundancy you gain in diversity. Only one unit gets the Prescience re-rolls, but that unit also has 3 Psycannon in it because it also includes the Inquisitor. My other unit has the neat Sanctic powers that I rolled, like Sanctuary and Gate, Cleansing Flame or Vortex of Doom. It means I can get my Terminators around the board after the first turn, I have a deepstriking Cleansing Flame (which really ruins peoples day) and generally a wide range of abilities.

 

I'm finding Henchmen really hard to incorporate, now that we're forced to take Terminator Troops. Before 7th I did it because it let me cheaply fill mandatory Troops, now with Turn 1 Deepstrike being pushed hard and the rest of my list being so durable...they're just gonna attract all the anti-infantry people don't wanna waste on Knights. Even in matchups like Nids, there is some kind of artillery or long-range anti-infantry firepower that just splats T3 dudes trying to hide in cover. I still think they're great, but not for us. Marines or IG I think get more out of Henchmen these days, as they have better synergy.

I only take them as a 30-40 point unit to hide in out of line of sight on the back of the board, operating my comms relay. I like that theme better than a Dreadknight doing it!

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Depends on your target though, doesn't it. Rending only comes in to play on a 6 to wound (or armour pen) and by then, a lot of the time you've already wounded. Sure, you're ignoring their armour but if they've got any kind of cover then they're still getting their saves. And if they didn't have 4+ or better armour to start with, then you're not getting any utility out of the power. It's great against some targets, but other times it will make no difference to your shooting phase.

 

Then I won't cast it. But Rending on demand is a very useful ability. I'd say I'd be casting it at least 2 in 3 games, if not more. 

And just as often they'll be plonking their dudes down in the middle of the table and relying on their armour saves and invulnerable saves. Again, it's a situational power. Much like Cleansing Flame, except not as good.

 

What strange alternate game are you playing? Riptides and Heldrakes make people that stupid pay for it (and they're not the only units either, just the most powerful counters). If you're deploying out of cover deliberately and just marching across the table, you'll get table wiped. Unless you're spamming Stormhammers or something. 'Perfect Timing' is better than 'Cleansing Flame', because you can make the unit (and thus weapon) of your choice Ignore Cover. It's a pretty big deal man. 

You don't really give your Librarian falchions, do you? Precognition just doesn't blow my hair back. My Librarian is already in a squad so he's pretty safe from incoming fire. Anything that really scares him is going to ID him and ignore his armour anyway, so what good is re-rolling my saves? I'd much prefer a 4++ for my whole unit from Sanctuary, all day erry day.

 

I'm considering it more and more. The Adamantium Will bonus is pretty cornercase, and I've been in melee combats where having AP3 would've been extremely helpful. Not to mention +1A, which helps with his decidedly average stats. I'm still on the fence about making the swap, but it's a possibility. 

 

Again, I'm not casting 'Precog' every turn, but it can be pretty clutch in an important combat. 'Sanctuary' is better for the squad though, I agree. 

I find Sanctuary so useful it's crazy. When your entire army has a 2+ save, people start to sweat. And when fully half of all the wounds they manage to do with their plasma and other AP2 weapons are saved anyway, they really sweat.

 

It's absurd on Dreadknights, but on your infantry the issue will be maybe only one squad is getting buffed. Its a bit like 'Invisibility', you end up just getting them to focus fire the non-4+ invul Terminators. 'Sanctuary' is very nice in melee though, saves you from powerfists and when fighting MC's. But I've lost more Terminators to failed armour saves that failed invul, ironically. 

I'm just not that hot on them. They can't deepstrike, have no staying power, and lost the ability to shoot effectively. I'm not about to drop 500+ points on them and a raven just to get cleansing flame. I mean, it's not like I hate them, they're still a good choice, but I'd almost always prefer another unit of Terminators or another Dreadknight over a unit of Purifiers.

 

Well its actually 460 (250+210). I dunno what the metric is with Space Wolves Allied for drop pods, but probably something similar. I agree, I find they're hard to fit into a smaller list, but at 1850 or 2k you should have room for them. 

Yeah, but it's not a dead power like Scrier's Gaze is, or as naff as Precognition IMO. It's still a handy power for a single warp charge.

 

The thing is though, if you need it go off, you'll throw at least 3 at it. And if you don't really need it, you shouldn't be casting it (we have a lot of charge generation, but it runs out quick once things like 'Prescience', 'Hammerhand' and 'Force' have to be accomodated). It's why I've really gone off 'Telepathy', 'Psychic Shriek' has worked out precisely once for me, and it was on a freak roll (I rolled like a 15 vs a Riptide, and he failed every invul and FNP). Mind bullets are not really where psychic powers are strong, its the buff powers that make or break the lores. 

Well, I find that what you use in redundancy you gain in diversity. Only one unit gets the Prescience re-rolls, but that unit also has 3 Psycannon in it because it also includes the Inquisitor. My other unit has the neat Sanctic powers that I rolled, like Sanctuary and Gate, Cleansing Flame or Vortex of Doom. It means I can get my Terminators around the board after the first turn, I have a deepstriking Cleansing Flame (which really ruins peoples day) and generally a wide range of abilities.

 

On random rolls. I'd prefer both of my Terminator squads were re-rolling to hit, rather than just one. Eh, agree to disagree. Sanctic isn't the worst lore by any means (hi Pyromancy...you just sit in that corner over there), but I feel we already have so much of it by default it feels redundant to me. 

I only take them as a 30-40 point unit to hide in out of line of sight on the back of the board, operating my comms relay. I like that theme better than a Dreadknight doing it! 

 

All good. The thing is though, the DK can do it, and you only need that Comms Array working on Turn 1. The enemy are less likely to kill 2+ DK's squatting behind an Aegis Line, than they are some T3 dudes. So, I'd still park a DK within 3", just as insurance. 

[Ishagu]

Firstly: The Internet is often wrong. It boggles the mind how so many people have absolutely no idea what they are talking about.

I'll give you an example: When the vanilla space marine codex came out, everyone who reviewed the codex dismissed grav centurions as overpriced and unimpressive. My god were they wrong. As soon as I read the rules I ordered two boxes. I wasn't going to wait for some dimwitted morons to come to a realisation after playing a few games with them and posting batreps. I was clearing Wraithknights and Landraiders in a single turn of grav shooting one week after the codex dropped, my opponents speechless.

 

Secondly: Yes - GK can easily win by themselves. They are very strong against Tyranids and Dark Eldar, though they do suffer against Eldar and Tau (in time those codecies will also be nerfed)

 

Thirdly: Anyone who gains most of their tactics or forms their opinions on Internet hyperbole is not very good at 40k! It's a tool to scout army abilities, nothing more!

 

Grey Knights are not a varied army, but there are VERY STRONG units in the codex.

 

1: Librarians

2: Cheap Terminators

3: Purifiers (the nova power is immense)

4: Dreadknights (point for point best MC in game)

5: Stormraven (still amazing)

 

 

Ps: The strength of Necrons comes from units not designed to function in 7th edition rules. They will get nerfed into the ground in next few months!

[tomsev]

I. Must agree with ishagu, grey knights arent part of thé weak end... I wipe the table with my opponents at the moment with my grey knights, sure my army isnt varried ah all but i dont like pa grey knights anyways... Plus thé fact that no one uses fliers down my end so i have a blast down my end with termies and ndks!!!

[jeffersonian000]

I've never read a single review saying people thought Grav Cents would be bad. Lot's if reviews panning Assault Cents, though.

 

SJ

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Firstly: The Internet is often wrong. It boggles the mind how so many people have absolutely no idea what they are talking about.

I'll give you an example: When the vanilla space marine codex came out, everyone who reviewed the codex dismissed grav centurions as overpriced and unimpressive. My god were they wrong. As soon as I read the rules I ordered two boxes. I wasn't going to wait for some dimwitted morons to come to a realisation after playing a few games with them and posting batreps. I was clearing Wraithknights and Landraiders in a single turn of grav shooting one week after the codex dropped, my opponents speechless.

 

Completely false. Dev Centurions were considered to be the functional replacement to Devastator squads day 1, and they only got better reviews as time went on. They were not written off at all. 

Thirdly: Anyone who gains most of their tactics or forms their opinions on Internet hyperbole is not very good at 40k! It's a tool to scout army abilities, nothing more!

 

I don't see who you're exactly rebutting here. No one was suggesting otherwise. 

Ps: The strength of Necrons comes from units not designed to function in 7th edition rules. They will get nerfed into the ground in next few months! 

 

It's possible. I don't think they'll take away too many of their tricks though, the army is very weak without its mech, Flyer spam and/or Wraith spam. I'd still expect Necrons to be better than us in mobility and shooting, obviously not melee though. 

I. Must agree with ishagu, grey knights arent part of thé weak end... I wipe the table with my opponents at the moment with my grey knights, sure my army isnt varried ah all but i dont like pa grey knights anyways... Plus thé fact that no one uses fliers down my end so i have a blast down my end with termies and ndks!!! 

 

Anecdotes /=/ general advice. Grey Knights are gated out of high-end play by Tau and Eldar. I agree we have a number of favourable matchups, and we stomp Daemons flat. But the current top-tier xenos builds demolish us, and there is no real way around it (even the most competitive NSF build can still be taken apart by a halfway decent general piloting those lists). If you don't believe me you can look at tournament placings. 

I've never read a single review saying people thought Grav Cents would be bad. Lot's if reviews panning Assault Cents, though.

 

I think Assault Centurions are underrated, but their Devastator brothers do overshadow them a bit (mainly because grav is so absurdly powerful right now). I wanna try some out with Draigo, they're a great functional replacement to Paladins in many ways (S10 at I4, melta and flamer weaponry). 

[Captain Coolpants]

Yeah, the only hate cents got was the aesthetics of them (which I agree with, they look like fat orangutan lookin Marines to me) and the fact that they do a job that normal devastators and terminators 'SHOULD' do anyway.

That's all I remember anyway.

[Ishagu]

I don't know what codex reviews you guys were reading but no one praised centurions upon release.

Heck, on the 1d4chan guide to marines in 7th edition they are still not being recommended.

[jeffersonian000]

I don't know what codex reviews you guys were reading but no one praised centurions upon release.

Heck, on the 1d4chan guide to marines in 7th edition they are still not being recommended.

Okay, I see what happened there. You read one crappy review, and ignored all of the "OMG! Grav is so OP!" articles that blanketed the rest if the interwebz. No biggie.

 

SJ

[Captain Coolpants]

This is all irrelevant anyway, this is about "PURE" knights lists. To which the overall answer is,

 

You win some, you lose some.

 

And you'll probably lose most of them against competitive armies.