Why are chaos space marines thought of as a bad codex?

[durdle-durdle]

After having looked through it, I can't really understand it.  CSM's have some seriously badass combat lords, access to psykers (and psychic familiars) everywhere, ability to build giant blobs of marines, and small suicide terminator squads with access to combi meltas, a nice flyer (even through the nerf, still seems great), varied elite units, nice chaff units in the way of cultists and spawn, etc. etc. etc.  I could keep going on.  I've got to admit, as a dark angels player, it makes me quite a bit jealous.

 

The only downside I see is the lack of land raider variants and drop pods.  And forgeworld fixes that, if i'm not mistaken?

 

When I asked my local CSM player why they are thought of as bad, pretty much all he could come up with was "we don't have 'and they shall know no fear.'"  I may be wrong, but that seems like a poor argument to me.  So i'm asking you guys, what is it that makes CSM "bad?"

[Forté]

It normally comes from comparing it to the Imperial Marine Codex and that it's not one of the top competitive books. It's not a bad Codex but it's not top flight.

 

At the other end of it though. Chaos does give the player the biggest rule of cool you could ever want. Yes we don't have ATSKNF, but we have a fair few fearless squads which can be troops.

 

I know others will comment on this topic to but I'll say it now people...

 

Keep comments constructive. This is NOT another complaint topic so don't treat it as such.

 

Thank you.

[John Bastard]

As long as people will compare this codex to the Loyal Space Marine codex, there will be complains about how we don't get this when they get that.

To me the codex is solid and fun to play. But too many people try to play it as another Space Marine codex, and I think it is a mistake.

 

PS : If I lose a lot, that's because I'm a terrible tactician :P

[durdle-durdle]

So how does playing csm vary from playing sm?

[Slave to Darkness]

Bugger, just as I was gonna have a rantfest. 

Tbh I don't see a problem with it, its no RoC or 3.5 dex, but it could be a lot worse. I've ran some fun army's using the current dex. Even won some games with it as well considering I don't use the 'must have' units the internet says I need to win. Sure there is plenty of things that I'd like to see in the dex, but that doesn't mean the dex will be better, just a bit less crap. 

[Prodigal Son of Magnus]

The main reason is because we had just come off of what many (including myself) perceived to be a bad codex only to be slammed with a copy-paste of it. The codex makes it very difficult and sometimes impossible to play a fluffy legion army and it dosent help that it is in the bottom 3. The main complaint about gameplay is that Space Marines get better rules for the same or sometimes cheaper prices. There is a longer explaination but i dont feel like writing it out.

[FallenOne]

It's the lack of variety, proper cult troops, lack of weapon options, the always challenge rule, lack of 2+ saves, terrible internal balance, etc.  This represents a renegade chaos book, like from the Rogue Trader days, but is a terrible codex for 10,000 year old traitors.

[incinerator950]

It's at the tail end of coming off a stale fest from the previous dex. Many rules and backgrounds are grandfathered, poorly configured, and points inefficient. Our Loyalist equivalents get better gear, stronger backgrounds, more options, and overall doesn't feel like playing handicapped compared to ours. We're a mid to assault focused army in an edition where shooting, alpha damage, and line breaking are the most important features and they can do almost everything better.

 

Yes some units are cheap, but after a decade, no one in the design studio can come up with something unless FW rehashes something from Epic or GW decides we need a mechanical unicorn or dragon instead of reusing deepstrike assaults, drop pods, Chaos tank marks, and some army differentiation between Cults, randoms, Black Legion, or angsty mustache marines.

 

Most importantly, the synergy in using CSM with CDs and LatD is just worse than any combination of Imperial allies, when the allies matrix is just sadly needed. Granted the backgrounds were improved with CS and BL, but overall we're not in good shape.

[Kol Saresk]

I would say the biggest problem is that it generally has no focus. They basically made it so we could do whatever we wanted in terms of listbuilding, but then forgot to give us the options to do so.

[Chronotonic]

Not to say it is a bad codex but the biggest problem with it is the fact that everyone wishes we could do legion armies and when we hear chaos space marines we all think the legions in all their glory. Or fading glory

[incinerator950]

Trying to avoid Legions and renegades (this topic will bloat), it's a reflection of what kol said. We're too generalized. We have very poor focus, if cult units and vehicles could synergize or you could use formations for drakes or fiends or something on the lines of vraks (purge chemthrower pms) it would be a lot better than just spamming cultists, birds, bikes and spawn with the occasional msu or trifiends.

[Teetengee]

Some of the other issues come in with our marks. Take mark of tzeentch for instance, it sounds great, +1 to invulnerable saves. But we dont get storm shields, so really all it means is that all our nontzeentch models just have worse invulns than loyalists can get. Khorne mark was nerfed from previous editions whilst cc was made even harder. Slaanesh suffers similarly. Nurgle is great, but can get boring after a while (you will notice that few people complain about plague marines, nurgle bikers, and nurgle oblits in the csm camp from a game effectiveness standpoint). We have little to no synergy with our only battle brothers and cannot do true traitor guard*. We have tons of options that are either really situational or very poorly costed or both (veterans of the long war is awkward). Our big rule is champion of chaos, which a. doesn't fit certain character styles you find within chaos fluff, and b. is really annoying in practice. Blobs of marines break, and flee forever, even though many of them have been fighting ever horror imaginable for 10000 years. Our fast attack slots are too important (spawn, bikers, heldrakes), and our land raiders are either easily shut down, or have a heavy risk of eating an expensive occupant. Our terminators are terribly fragile and basically only useful for termicide, even though they are fluffwise the elite backbone(once chosen) of many a chaos army (which admittedly is not just a traitor problem, but some, especially black legion, feel in particularly hard). Many rules and units just don't work right(warp talons blind rule should have probably been 12" for instance), or are rarely the optimal choice(mutilators).

 

Meanwhile, many people are upset with the artistic direction that gw has taken chaos, (although I for one love the heldrake and fiend models). Also, for years chaos has asked for a real legion book but GW has always said it would be too complex, and then they produced the loyalist book which is very similar to what we wanted. It is often not a matter of what is, but what could have been that so upsets chaos players (and their dark lords of course).

*Barring forgeworld maybe. But keep in mind, needing forgeworld to actually play the army you want to is both often problematic and is expensive.


TLDR: The chaos is perceived as bad not so much because it is incapable of producing a competitive army, but because it is full of so called options, that from a competitive standpoint are anything but. The codex is bad because internal balance is way off and it is full of bloat in all the wrong places, not because it can't be used to produce something effective on the table top. Finally, we have proof that GW can create a single codex that has huge different flavors and playstyles: the loyalist codex, yet we of chaos who have asked for such, have received this instead.

 

 

Keep in mind, I still play it and enjoy it, but ever since 3.5 chaos has been comparing the new to the old and real different playstyles always seem to be reduced with each edition.

[Spacefrisian]

Most who complain about it (might i include me) have played Chaos since 3.5, unles gw makes a cdex like that it wont get any better. For those who havent played with that dex, it offered tons of options with list building and alot of them where solid lists at minimum, all while being fluffy as well. Heck if you are up to it, build a list with that dex and play against the current dex, you be suprised how well it does against it.

 

Seems like most older dexes do a better job overall than the newer ones. In terms of customisation.

 

Just my oppinion, others might not see it this way.

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

The main issue is that loyalists have more options, options that work or not restrcited to marks, more SC, and just many more options that outclass anything we can do.

[Forté]

You'll find that a lot of players who do go with Chaos (no matter how much they may moan about the Codex) do so because they love the fluff and the sheer scope for modelling opportunity. Would you find a loyalist with heavily modified armour, trophies taken from foes, mutations, outlandish paint schemes, dripping with slime, possessed, or anything you can think of? Nope. Want to mix Tyranid, Marine, and Necron parts? Do it. No one will tell you you're wrong.

[the jeske]

Lack of options and multiple tiers. Troops[more or less stuck with 1 troop choice as being viable most of the time]/hvysupport/etc. Then there is the ally tier. Chaos has no real battle brother ally, there is no synergy like loyalist have or eldar/tau had. Horrible rules on ton of units. The whole legion thing [what ever someone thinks the new/old books are too or not enough legion].

 

Then come the edition problems. For example in 6th we didn't have point efficient troops, so the best way to run chaos space marine army was to take as few csm as possible[infact some armies didn't have csm them at all, not counting the HQs]. Our dudes are weaker then loyalist dudes[can run and our load outs aren't so special when SW have them too, lack of transport options,and the transport options we do have are offten worse then the loyalist ones etc]. In 7th we lack a proper counter to fast moving AV targets, we also have HUGE problems with AV walls.

 

Then come the specific rules problems. Chaos lords were[for a long time] weaker then loyalists, because our dex didn't have a+2sv and/or storm shields. CS brought that[although we have to buy 2 books to get the rules loyalist get in 1] , but we are still limited to 1 such HQ. Someone mentioned the mark dysynergy. We are forced to take them to get cult troops and we have to take them[or run markless] along side marked units . This means we all play BL nurgle or DG lists, unless we realy want to add handicaps to our lists. There is nothing int he rules that could make people want to run non nurgle.

 

we have a lower number of viable units, even with ally[which for us work much different then for loyalist] we are at most looking at 4-5 units worth taking, not bad per se, until one notices that some of the double over. GK which are probably the worse example of being forced to play unit X, have as many too. And that is just one codex.

 

 

etc etc etc

[Redtoof]

I think the reason why the codex is almost universally seen as bad is that the rules don't fit the fluff very well, and they don't fit the current core rules well either. This means it is disliked by competitive players and the more background-focused players - who between them basically make up the whole community.

[Hellios]

The rules aren't that competitive, and they aren't as varied as other chaos rule sets have been in the past.

 

I don't think this codex represents more recent renegades very well, and it only does a half-decent job of representing some of the Legions. At least daemons can be added easily due to the current core rules (otherwise it would be even worse), and the new renegade list from FW seems fun, and has a lot of variation... So that is an added bonus.

 

When they updated the chaos codex (that was already considered bad by many), they didn't fix a lot of the problems, and the new stuff (daemon engines, and mutilators) they gave us wasn't what most players wanted. The daemon engines aren't bad, although I'm not a fan of the models. Mutilators however are pretty poor in terms of rules, and model... so lazy... I've seen the concept done before in fandexes, and the fandexes did a better job... Think Obliterator/ old acro-flagellant rules cross... It gave the unit a fast, and feral feel to it. 

 

So... without going into huge army wide changes, that would change the core nature of the army... Problems...

 

Chaos Lords - I think that a fully tooled chaos lord should be the toughest close combat character in the game, excluding special characters and monstrous creatures (where we have our own in the form of a DP). The problem is a number of loyalist builds could clean the clocks of most chaos lords.

 

Possessed - Have improved other previous editions, but could do with a little more work.

 

Terminators - They work fairly well as cheap units, but it would be nice to have the option to turn them into the fearsome champions of chaos that they are.

 

Chosen - They are 'okay', but that isn't great. Ideally I'd like to give this unit greater flexibility.

 

Hellbrute - Gee... thanks for the new name... And at least we don't have to argue over who it shoots anymore. Dreads are not generally considered as being that great in this edition, but I think giving it a few more chaos options would have made a big difference... Chaos only weapons (Ecto-cannon, bale-flamer... whatever), or marks of chaos.

 

A lot of the cult units need re-jigging, they just don't fill their roles like they used to. Plague Marines have always been fairly strong, I've not seen noise marines in a while, but I hear some good things about them. Khorne berzerkers are a bit lackluster, and they need to be given more UUMPH... More transport options would help as well. Thousand Sons... Don't worry about them... GW have never been able to get them working :P

 

The fast attack section is actually not so bad anymore, it used to be (IMHO) the weakest part of the CSM codex. Raptors/Warp Talons could probably do with some more work... I love the models.

 

Heavy Support.

 

Daemon Engines... Ooo, you get a few different views on these. You could argue they might need to be a little cheaper... I don't know. The defiler tends to get more criticism, I guess this is because it has been around for a few editions.... Some people miss options like indirect-fire and so on.

 

 Chaos versions of loyalist stuff... Basically we often seem to have inferior options to the loyalists, we might be a bit cheaper, but that might be at the cost of an important rule... We also don't have all of the variants that loyalists have, and that's okay. We wan't to have some differences, but I'd really like to see a DIY pattern Land Raider.

 

Where you have a choice to replace the Land Raiders basic weapons with Chaos weapons (you could apply this to vehicles like predators as well).

 

Replace both Twin-linked lascannons with

 

- hades autocannon (or 2?) and an extra X transport capacity for 20pts (or whatever)

- Ectocannons

- Bale-flamers

- twin-linked blastmaster

 

Replace the twin-linked heavy-bolter with

 

- hades autocannon

- Bale flamer

- two twin-linked sonic blasters

 

This kind of thing.

 

Allow them to be marked (or associated to a cult... whatever) and make a few weapons based on each mark that aren't just upgrades for lords...

 

Slaanesh already has the sonic weapons

Sonic blasters

Blastmaster

Doom Siren

 

Nurgle...

Plague weapons (CC)

Chem-flamers

Plague mortar (?)

 

Khorne

Boiling-blood flamer?

Lots of cool close combat weapons... Axe of Khorne? It can keep on attacking until it misses... Like the Blood Talons...

 

Tzeentch... This has to have potential for lots of weird weapons...

[the jeske]

Now am not saying this aint true, but w40k move away from mono army single units doing X around 6th ed. Chaos could have 0 new updates or changes, but get two or three ally with rules that could spill over to units and it would be a lot more fun to play.

 

Imagine a khorn lord runing around with khorn dogs or heralds of slanesh in NM melee units. That is how armies in 7th+ will look like codex+codex+formation+ally and then you get a working army.

[Lord Asvaldir]

CSM dex's power level comes down to a very simple comparison for me. When I use my CSM against my usual opponents, it's either a close win, or a loss. When I use my necrons against those same opponents, I have yet to lose while using necrons and often win by a large margin. Now you could say it's because my opponents know how to deal with CSM and not necrons, but I think it really comes down to one is just a much better codex than the other. I think it's wrong to say CSM are a bad codex, the issue is that it's a decent codex in a game with several very good codexes. It's always going to lose when it comes down to a comparison of CSM-SM, CSM-eldar, etc. 

 

Now this doesn't bother me too much as I play CSM for the fluff/model aspect, but I can understand why some people get pissed off with our codex.

[the jeske]

So it is good when compared to bad codex, doesn't that kind of a sound like the definition of being bad. If someone said this sportsman X is ok, as long as he doesn't play against good sportsman, no one would say that he is good.

[exinfris001]

Over all I don't think it's bad codex, compared to the last codex. It is just alittle understrength for what Chaos Marines should be.

There is a lack of variety as far as transports go, and the codex lacks the senergy of other codex's. By far 4th edition codex was the best for Chaos Marines even with the lack of transports. Lots of options, great senergy.

I have been a CSM player since 3rd edition, and will continue to play chaos in the future.

[Dallas Drake]

There are some okay builds in the codex, I wouldn't say it's bad, just not strong.

 

Personally, the fall of the CSM as a solid troop choice is the real thorn in my side re: this codex. I don't use any CSMs in my CSM army anymore and that's sad... Having perhaps the mostsolid troops in the game was what I personally felt won me games in 5th edition with the Gavdex.

 

GW need to give CSMs something to make them a decent troops choice again, champion of chaos needs a total rethink too.

[Excessus]

I'll bite on this chewy bone as well. :)

 

The chaos codex is a disappointment to me mostly because of this:

 

Bad implementation of cool and fun stuff!

 

A few examples perhaps:

 

*Marks. They could at least try to make them so that they would be useful for a wider range of troops than currently. Why take anything else than MoN on Spawn or Oblits?

 

*The Chaos Boons. This rule could have been soooo much fun! Your champions getting the eye of the gods on them, buffing them towards greater glories! Now instead, we get half a list that does nothing to most characters. Fearless or stubborn on a lord? Fleet on a unit champion? Spawndom is too threatening without the need for Ld check as it is in WFB and makes you shy away from combat with your expensive characters and figure out impressive ways to charge into combat so the champ can't challenge...fluffy, right? But what is worse is the Dark Apotheosis result. It's almost as limiting as getting a spawn(at least the spawn can move 12")! All those expensive gear you bought with points, gone. All those psychic powers he had? Forgotten! And if you can't place him...tough ****, then you lose ALL the points!

 

*Thousand Sons. Yeah, our expensive mana batteries. It seems the writer forgot the fluff behind the rubrics, where you had to destroy their armour to kill them and that they get better and more responsive when the sorcerer is near. With todays rules, they don't really care if the sorcerer is alive or not, and the easiest way to destroy them is to fire small calibre shots at them, things you use against flesh and blood, not things you use against their armour(being 3+), because those shots they are extra protected against somehow...

 

*The Fiends. Imho should have been one unit entry for sure. Give the option to "build a bear...I mean daemon engine", with the hades autocannons removing siege crawler and such, but kept the option to give the mauler a shooty head...yay, immobilized maulerfiend, happens a LOT for me at least! :(

 

*Artefacts. Unimpressive for sure! One marked weapon, one ranged and one melee unmarked weapon...that's all we got basically. The CS artefacts are wayyy cooler and lets you do much much more! The balestar and voice makes your army completely different, and the heart makes the lord a ton more durable, closer to the loyalist version...at least the non-chaptermaster one. The daemon weapons in the CSM codex just makes the lord...killyer...doesn't change playstyle or anything...

 

 

I will still play with it though, but I mostly play with the CS supplement and daemon allies. Fun ideas, horribly implemented...that's my take on the CSM codex.

[Trevak Dal]

So how does playing csm vary from playing sm?

Mostly in what units you have access to, and your Battlebrother allies.

 

Chaos Space Marines have Space Marines without ATSKNF that can take two specials and extra combat weapons (or swap their bolters for combat weapons for a more close combat centric unit)

 

We can have a Monstrous Creature in our default codex, not to mention beasts, and we can ally (but kinda not really) with Daemons, who provide lots of "LOL I always get a save (Even if it's low)" guys on the table, that can slice and dice MEQs or camp objectives.

 

I think a lot of angst is that our default troops, chaos space marines, aren't equipped and statted like Chosen for Chaos Space Marine points costs (that would be a glorious day mind you).

 

I think a couple of tweaks (Banners and Icons acting as homing beacons again-especially for Daemon allies, and Icons not being mark restrictive-but maybe taking them with a said mark they're more alligned to would unlock certain bonuses Veterans of the Long War being free for most units-or at it's current prices and allowing the unit to have a given set of USR 'veteran skills'.)

 

I think the HH Legion books got the "Legion" rules that everybody was always wanting, and I think that it wasn't an accident.  "Because if you want to play Horus Heresy legions...you can't just use your Chaos Space Marine minis...you got to buy that high dollar resin stuff" since the HH ruleset is more of a "historical" sect to the 40k series, people are more compelled to buy in with the legit stuff instead of counts-as.

 

Just As Planned.