Why are chaos space marines thought of as a bad codex?

[DarkApostleMazadrin]

I like the codex tbh. Yes some things could be better but its a very fun codex. Il admit when ive got the points spare i even like to take gifts of mutation. Im currently trying to work on a undivided arny with no marks on anything except daemon units il even use the apostle lulz. Power isnt important to me as a good player can win with a weak codex ie wood elves in 8th ed fantasy before they got updated

[Hellios]

 

 

I think the HH Legion books got the "Legion" rules that everybody was always wanting, and I think that it wasn't an accident.  "Because if you want to play Horus Heresy legions...you can't just use your Chaos Space Marine minis...you got to buy that high dollar resin stuff" since the HH ruleset is more of a "historical" sect to the 40k series, people are more compelled to buy in with the legit stuff instead of counts-as.

 

Just As Planned.

 

 

Hah, just use the rules anyway.

[totgeboren]

Ignoring the mismatch between what the background portrays (Legions, and some renegade warbands) and what the rules portray (renegade warbands with some legion merc squads), I think the big problem can be explained a bit like this.

 

We have loyalists as the default. They are Space Marine. And here we have Chaos Space Marines. A version of Space Marines obviously. How to make them different? Well, they are much more close-combat oriented on average, so lets give them more close combat units plus buffs to close combat (marks) and remove some of the more shooty stuff.

Ok, cool you might say. But they are still just SM with a twist. Or SM++.

 

To make them even more different, we need to change the way the army works. We need to make them into CSM, not SM++. So lets remove ATSKNF, which is a huge nerf to close combat ability (it does little against shooting, but is a huge deal in close combat).

 

But they are still too alike loyalists. So lets remove all transport options except the most basic ones, the humble Rhino and the mighty Land Raider. This will give them a less high-tech feel, trusting more in their infantry than SM who rely more on vehicles.

 

But the Land Raider is too much like the loyalist one, so lets remove the band-aid PotMS rule that was given to the LR explicitly to make the 2xtwin-linked lascannon armament on an assault transport viable in the first place. So now we have a LR without the one rule rule which was given to make it viable in normal gameplay.

 

What we are left with are marines that can't shoot as well as loyalists because they were buffed in close combat. And all the things done to differentiate CSM from SM were basically nerfs to close combat or nerfs to their ability to enter close combat. So what you are left with is marines that are worse in close combat (or at best equal) and worse at shooting, while being slower. 

 

To top it off, they just had to give all CSM characters the 'instant-suicide' must-challenge rule, which is just another nail in the coffin of their close combat ability.

 

That's my analysis of why CSM are seen as weak when it comes to rules.

[Tenebris]

We are not bad, we are misunderstood. 

 

 

Well joke aside the book is not bad, it is considered "bad" though since it lacks the variety impressed by the Space Marine codex and lack the "autowin" options like Divination Psykers with Centurions, lots of Deep Strike options... well you get the idea. In an edition where alpha strike, deep strike and shooting dominate we "struggle". Well you would struggle against a full on competitive list but everything else is fair game, at least IMO.

 

Now as we are in our second year as a book my only grudge is that we lack "legion" rules and a better internal synergy. Said that considering what is happening to the books in the 7th, namely a complete streamlining process I am not that worried about our power level, especially now that GW is toning everything else down. 

[Captain Coolpants]

I'm not a chaos player, I'm a grey knights player, so maybe it's just that I don't understand, but the Codex seems good and fun to me! Many many options! And fluff and the aesthetics are cool because the ideas for conversions are limitless.

You have the best characters in my opinion, all of them wreck face in CC! With lots of ap2 at initiative as well.

 

The way I see it, you should never ever EVER compare yourself to vanilla Marines....

 

Why?

 

BECAUSE YOU'RE NOT!

 

Why would you get all the new marine toys? They're new to vanilla, and chaos rely on stealing or turning enemies to the dark side to upgrade their stuff, so if you did get the new options, it should technically be in super short supply and cost double the points...

 

Plus if you got all the usual marine toys.... What would be the point in giving you a separate codex? Just may as well roll into the vanilla dex and have chaos as some chapter tactics... Get the templar treatment.

 

 

I think the only thing chaos is missing is the option to make power builds that are comparable to other dexs.

But why would you want to became a mono build codex?

 

My codex is suffering the same thing right now, just to an extreme because we only have 2 viable builds regardless of how competitive they are...

 

Your codex is fun and cool looking, and you do actually have a lot of options, (especially when compared to grey knights)

 

All that said... I'd be very surprised if your dex doesn't get some love in their inevitable 7th ed update due to the years of bitching.

[Chaeron]

And auto-accepting challenges - that is never a good thing.

We're so evil, we don't abide by honour.

[Forté]

We're so evil, we don't abide by honour.

Honour? That's no fun.

[Neigorath]

It's also fun to suddenly start following the Codex Astartes when it comes to heavy and special weapons it seems...

 

That, and I miss my heavy weapon per every third terminator.

 

Gah. Maybe I'll try to make a new chaos list today instead of complaining.

[Iron Skull Mask]

I'm not a chaos player, I'm a grey knights player, so maybe it's just that I don't understand, but the Codex seems good and fun to me! Many many options! And fluff and the aesthetics are cool because the ideas for conversions are limitless.

You have the best characters in my opinion, all of them wreck face in CC! With lots of ap2 at initiative as well.

 

The way I see it, you should never ever EVER compare yourself to vanilla Marines....

 

Why?

 

BECAUSE YOU'RE NOT!

 

Why would you get all the new marine toys? They're new to vanilla, and chaos rely on stealing or turning enemies to the dark side to upgrade their stuff, so if you did get the new options, it should technically be in super short supply and cost double the points...

 

Plus if you got all the usual marine toys.... What would be the point in giving you a separate codex? Just may as well roll into the vanilla dex and have chaos as some chapter tactics... Get the templar treatment.

 

 

I think the only thing chaos is missing is the option to make power builds that are comparable to other dexs.

But why would you want to became a mono build codex?

 

My codex is suffering the same thing right now, just to an extreme because we only have 2 viable builds regardless of how competitive they are...

 

Your codex is fun and cool looking, and you do actually have a lot of options, (especially when compared to grey knights)

 

All that said... I'd be very surprised if your dex doesn't get some love in their inevitable 7th ed update due to the years of bitching.

 

You serious man? Yeah, we ain't SM, so far so good, BUT: since 3.5 they took away legion rules and veteran skills. Nowadays, SM have Legion- uuh, chapter-rules. Nowadays, SM have better Obliterators, sorry, I mean Centurions. So it's kind of hard not to realize these things and feel rubbed the wrong way, while we are denied drop pods, storm shields, etc. I mean where are our five man squads with heavy weapons? Where are our teleport homers? Gone with the wind. But yeah, from your perspective it's like "Why are you crying you got them awesome Dinobots..." Right. I'm not saying our codex is bad, it's midfield. What I'm saying is, what people would like is a nerved 3.5 codex which would pay respect to various stances towards chaos and which would allow mono and multi-god builds and offer some synergies with Chaos Daemons. And that's were all the cheese and wine from the non-power-gamers comes from.

 

So, that said, why do we have these stupid whine threads time and again? I mean, today they come in various guises and are called "Here's to hope" or "Why are CSM thought of as a bad codex?", but right now I see like three of them on the front page. I thought we where on another, better path...

[Forté]

We are.

 

Don't forget this topic came from a genuine question from a member asking why the codec was considered bad.

 

The answer can be summed up to "it's not bad. It's just not what a lot of people want for Chaos".

 

Unless others have constructive answers that are not essentially rewording others who have the same view this could be left to sleep.

[GreyCrow]

Like Forte said, I feel it's because it might not fit the idea people have of Chaos. Also, what seems to be widespread here is the fact that it's not legion rules, and I just wanted to chime in and give a parallel with C:SM. With the new C:SM codex as well, armies play very differently and I believe what upsets many people is that new Codex releases are not expansions/revisions of existing armies but new armies altogether, and change tends to upset people by taking them out of their comfort zone and that's easily understandable.

 

Many people pick the Chapter Tactics in hopes of making a unique army that will play vastly differently than SM armies of different Chapter Tactics. More power to them, but it's not the best way to be effective on the table, because essentially C:SM is Codex: Ultramarines with different kinks for each Chapter Tactics. Even with the IF CT, you won't be able to make the IF Legion and not taking assault elements or fast moving units will be akin to bolter drilling yourself in the foot. Same for Raven Guard, a pure Scout/Assault Marines force is fluffy, but without Tactical squads or long range support you'll get facerolled by any other assault army.

 

I've seen Chaos armies that worked very well on the table and others that failed miserably. I'm interested in making a Chaos army sometime, and I feel that the lack of focus many have spoken about is actually a lot of freedom and power to build a very distinctive army... But with great power comes great responsibility and its the responsibility of the player to fiddle with all the options presented and find balance or a theme that work on the tabletop !

 

One big difference in the mechanics of Chaos versus Loyalists is that loyalists do not have overwhelming firepower (that's right) and are more of a precision tool, while with Chaos you can field units with overwhelming firepower. Warp Talons ? Yes please ! 20 men Chaos Marines squads, yes please ! Autocannon Havocs, yes please !

 

Once again I'm no Chaos player yet, but the Dark Gods have whispered to me on multiple occasions and I'm tempted to start one too, as soon as I find a theme that I like !

[the jeske]

Oh it is rather bad, It ain't a tournament list codex , at least not compering to the loyalist marines ones. And it aint  a good FAAC, with CS it is[maybe] a semi casual BL book [which is counts as of counts as using addon codex].

 

When people say that we shouldn't compare ourself to marines, I would like to point out that chaos has 1[well technicly 1 and 2 addons] codex for all factions[when loyalist have multiple books] and if it wasn't enough, that what for chaos is limited to a unit, for loyalist turns in to whole armies. AND we have SW which do almost everything chaos does, specialy as core mechanics goes.

It is hard not to compare csm to SW.

 

 

I'm interested in making a Chaos army sometime, and I feel that the lack of focus many have spoken about is actually a lot of freedom and power to build a very distinctive army... But with great power comes great responsibility and its the responsibility of the player to fiddle with all the options presented and find balance or a theme that work on the tabletop !

 

 

No it doesn't. Only thing that happens is that option X is the only viable one, but not "fluffy"/in style of your legion/warband it sucks to be you. And there is a drastic difference between chapter tactics making your army SW/DA/chapter X and chaos DG player being limited to tyfus, PMS as DG options.

[DarkApostleMazadrin]

Ok il also be honest i mainly play nurgle i only use one unit of plague marines because my marines are not death guard. However i will say this the problem is Nurgle helps any unit out while the other marks do not

[totgeboren]

We are.

 

Don't forget this topic came from a genuine question from a member asking why the codec was considered bad.

 

The answer can be summed up to "it's not bad. It's just not what a lot of people want for Chaos".

 

Unless others have constructive answers that are not essentially rewording others who have the same view this could be left to sleep.

 

I don't agree with this, as I assume what you are referring to is the inability to play 'Legions', or to be more precise, the inability to portray the forces we meet in CSM related fiction on the tabletop. This would be the disconnect between the background and the rules that many lament. Sure, there are also some people want chaos to be the #1 tournament army, but personally I don't pay them any mind.

 

Post #28 is my thoughts on this, and I think the problem is more related to the whole package that CSM have become. It's a sort of cocktail-effect that makes CSM as weak as they are, when they look pretty nice on paper. Making 'cc-marines' (which is what the iconic Chaos Marine sort of is), with cc buffs from being 'Chaos' of course means something have to be removed. So they removed a lot of shooting ability. But then to make CSM into something else than a version of SM, they removed most of the SM quirks and new tech, but these quirks are kinda vital for making SM work as a close-range shock-and-awe army. So what we are left with are marines who lack the vital tools they need for close combat, while being by design inferior at shooting. It's the unhappy combination of many things which makes them so weak.

 

Hopefully the new Dreadclaws might help us out somewhat, but the cost both in money and points makes it at best a band-aid. I mean, the new Dreadclaw is in effect an AV12 assault transport. Not exactly the open-topped Rhino many have asked for, but pretty close, so it might make our CC units a bit more usable.

[DarkApostleMazadrin]

 

 

We are.

 

Don't forget this topic came from a genuine question from a member asking why the codec was considered bad.

 

The answer can be summed up to "it's not bad. It's just not what a lot of people want for Chaos".

 

Unless others have constructive answers that are not essentially rewording others who have the same view this could be left to sleep.

I don't agree with this, as I assume what you are referring to is the inability to play 'Legions', or to be more precise, the inability to portray the forces we meet in CSM related fiction on the tabletop. Sure, some people want chaos to be the #1 tournament army, but personally I don't pay them any mind.

 

Post #28 is my thoughts on this, and I think the problem is more related to the whole package that CSM have become. It's a sort of cocktail-effect that makes CSM as weak as they are, when they look pretty nice on paper. Making 'cc-marines' (which is what the iconic Chaos Marine sort of is), with cc buffs from being 'Chaos' of course means something have to be removed. So they removed a lot of shooting ability. But then to make CSM into something else than a version of SM, they removed most of the SM quirks and new tech, but these quirks are kinda vital for making SM work as a close-range shock-and-awe army. So what we are left with are marines who lack the vital tools they need for close combat, while being by design inferior at shooting. It's the unhappy combination of many things which makes them so weak.

 

Hopefully the new Dreadclaws might help us out somewhat, but the cost both in money and points makes it at best a band-aid. I mean, the new Dreadclaw is in effect an AV12 assault transport. Not exactly the open-topped Rhino many have asked for, but pretty close, so it might make our CC units a bit more usable.

I agree however ive never had any problem getting into combat

[Bung]

Lets have it that way, every CSM Dex was considered "bad" after the 3.5 Codex.

And why? Cause you dont get the super-powers and have a fluff army at the same time.

In my opinion the 3.5 Codex got the same problem as the 4th SM Kodex and some others you got free power ups for nothing.

Thats why most people complained about those books.

 

I have tried to play with the 3.5 CSM Book and most time i heard: "No, i wont play against powergamer using that Codex." even if i didnt write a List to stomp everyone and his dog.

 

After im a bit unhappy with my Templars and Dark Eldar im going back to my CSM cause why?

Its one of the Dexes with the most paint and conversion possibilities and we have still some tricks that work.

 

We can do some things loyalists cant do, and we can use it in our favor.

 

- we still can have 2 Special Weapons in the normal CSM unit

- Hacocs can still carry 4 Special Weapons (something really feared last time i played CSM)

- Chosen are one of units with the most options, only unit in SM Codex that can match it ist the Command Squad

- same for our Terminator Squads 

- its the SM choice with the most conversion bits in the web

 

just to name some points.

[Shuggnuggath]

I think the OP should try playing CSM for a while and then get back to us :)

[Captain Coolpants]

 

 

I'm not a chaos player, I'm a grey knights player, so maybe it's just that I don't understand, but the Codex seems good and fun to me! Many many options! And fluff and the aesthetics are cool because the ideas for conversions are limitless.

You have the best characters in my opinion, all of them wreck face in CC! With lots of ap2 at initiative as well.

 

The way I see it, you should never ever EVER compare yourself to vanilla Marines....

 

Why?

 

BECAUSE YOU'RE NOT!

 

Why would you get all the new marine toys? They're new to vanilla, and chaos rely on stealing or turning enemies to the dark side to upgrade their stuff, so if you did get the new options, it should technically be in super short supply and cost double the points...

 

Plus if you got all the usual marine toys.... What would be the point in giving you a separate codex? Just may as well roll into the vanilla dex and have chaos as some chapter tactics... Get the templar treatment.

 

 

I think the only thing chaos is missing is the option to make power builds that are comparable to other dexs.

But why would you want to became a mono build codex?

 

My codex is suffering the same thing right now, just to an extreme because we only have 2 viable builds regardless of how competitive they are...

 

Your codex is fun and cool looking, and you do actually have a lot of options, (especially when compared to grey knights)

 

All that said... I'd be very surprised if your dex doesn't get some love in their inevitable 7th ed update due to the years of bitching.

You serious man? Yeah, we ain't SM, so far so good, BUT: since 3.5 they took away legion rules and veteran skills. Nowadays, SM have Legion- uuh, chapter-rules. Nowadays, SM have better Obliterators, sorry, I mean Centurions. So it's kind of hard not to realize these things and feel rubbed the wrong way, while we are denied drop pods, storm shields, etc. I mean where are our five man squads with heavy weapons? Where are our teleport homers? Gone with the wind. But yeah, from your perspective it's like "Why are you crying you got them awesome Dinobots..." Right. I'm not saying our codex is bad, it's midfield. What I'm saying is, what people would like is a nerved 3.5 codex which would pay respect to various stances towards chaos and which would allow mono and multi-god builds and offer some synergies with Chaos Daemons. And that's were all the cheese and wine from the non-power-gamers comes from.

 

So, that said, why do we have these stupid whine threads time and again? I mean, today they come in various guises and are called "Here's to hope" or "Why are CSM thought of as a bad codex?", but right now I see like three of them on the front page. I thought we where on another, better path...

Oh no doubt you're allowed to bitch, I mean when my dex got nerfed I was first in line, because it meant I had to re-model all my psycannons. But that doesn't make my army bad. (although I did gain alpha strike)

 

Yeah yours don't get chapter tactics... But you get marks, which yes you pay extra for (although on cheaper Marines) , but they do more meaningful things such as increasing stats.

 

And centurions are only better than obliterators when they pay for grav, which is a new space marine toy, so you'll not get it, so they aren't comparable as obliterators are effective against everything, where as grav cents are ONLY good against low armour.

 

Also I don't get storm Shields, I'm probably the most CC oriented marine army and I don't get them. My models are even modeled after knights in shining armour, so kinda makes no sense how I can't get them lol

 

I actually agree that you should get pods though man, I mean every marine army has pods, they're super common in the fluff so you should have them too to be fair.

 

I also think that you should get a similar rule to orks with your fear tests and such, because although you've abandoned the emprah, you're still Marines, so shouldn't run away as much.

[the jeske]

It is not about nerfs. When before you have a codex[more or less what legion lists are. Also people forget that under 3.5 you could play non legion] and then you don't it is not a nerf. Squats were not nerfed. Inq armies were not nerfed.

 

 

 

Yeah yours don't get chapter tactics... But you get marks, which yes you pay extra for (although on cheaper Marines) , but they do more meaningful things such as increasing stats.

Realy? getting a +1inv you don't have is a good thing? how does having +1I or rage helps when +1T is superior[meanig all other marks automaticly suck, because your HQ will have nurgle and if it does have that it can't join a unit with a different one]. Or how about mon on csm being a weaker option then taking pms.

 

How does that compare to hit on run on fast moving melee units, that can spill over to other models that dont have it by ally use[like TWC getting it from a WS HQ joined to them. Or how about getting drop pods for any unit you want, because SW got them as FA and suddenly all those slow units[which in CSM armies would be classed as bad] suddenly get to shine. Or IG dudes getting +4inv in their blobs because azz joins them[and fearless].

 

And lets not forget that a lot of times marks for loyalist are things they get for free.An oblit has to buy MoN to be viable. A cenurion starts with higher T[and ATKNF,no limitations on units that can join them etc].

 

 

And centurions are only better than obliterators when they pay for grav, which is a new space marine toy, so you'll not get it, so they aren't comparable as obliterators are effective against everything, where as grav cents are ONLY good against low armour.

 

 

Aha and which swarm armies are dominating right now ? Or maybe its AV walls, mecha eldar, FMC nid builds.

 

 

Also I don't get storm Shields, I'm probably the most CC oriented marine army and I don't get them. My models are even modeled after knights in shining armour, so kinda makes no sense how I can't get them lol

 

yeah all you need to do is buy a terminator chapter master with TH/ES, 5 scouts, a drop pod and cenutrions. Of course you would realy have to want to run a SS armed HQ. There is a big difference someone not having all options and not having basic options.

A chaos list [that isn't BL] has no basic options to be good. Not having SS and not being able to build a working 1ksons army[example list] is HUGE.

 

And why? Cause you dont get the super-powers and have a fluff army at the same time.

 

That is such a fallacy. Chaos was good in 4th as  vs noob killer army. Yes when someone came from playing DoW and played against a syren build or a 9oblits+2xdefilers+1vindi+basilisk[3with indirect fire], he lost. But if the same dude played against marines[24+rending shots per turn. and rending happened on to hit rolls], eldar circus or nidzilla he lost too.

 

Other chaos legion list were at best ok and someone like 1ksons[GW hates them] were very low tier.

Also if the "new" chaos books were the"punishment" for 3.5, then why do loyalist get good synergy armies [in fact with every edition they get better and better, through addition of formations, ally etc].

[Caustic63]

The current Chaos Codex will always be compared to 3.5 when the army was in its heyday (all Legions had unique rules, for better or worse, mono-god armies had their own armories, Daemons were apart of the same book, etc) and for good reason. A lot has been lost from that book that many Chaos players aren't too happy about, and it doesn't help that Loyalist Space Marines have gained many of the things we used to have.

 

That's all in the past though. What matters is why the codex is somewhat lacking (though not terrible) today in the current metagame, and I think it comes down to three key points:

 

1) Chaos Marines suffer some losses in the shooting department to balance their 'improved' melee capabilities, but being an effective melee army requires many key components that aren't present in their entirety for an economical enough price for competitive use. Effective melee units need to be (1) Mobile, 12" movement minimum via transport, wargear, or unit type, (2) Well equipped, Power Weapons preferable, and (3) Statistically set up for CC.

 

As a whole Chaos units generally possess only one of the above, and hence are ineffective in CC, or have 2 of the above and are expensive. The one exception is Chaos Spawns, who have (1) and (3) which makes up for a lack of (2) and are reasonably priced.

 

2) For a single point more, Vanilla Marines get ATSKNF, Combat Squads, and Chapter Tactics. The kicker here is Chapter Tactics which are very powerful and completely open to the choice of the player. Given this state of affairs, its no small wonder Chaos Marines seem lacking and forced to pay too much for things. It's not unreasonable to expect that given what they had in 3.5, Chaos Marines should be entitled to free Chaos Legion benefits too.

 

3) Champions of Chaos is a double edged sword, but its arguably more of a handicap given that it forces Chaos players to equip their characters for combat or suffer the consequences. Even if you do that and win the challenge, there's no guarantee you are going to get a roll on the table that's useful... in fact you could actually turn your expensive HQ into a Spawn for WINNING. It may work in fluff, but as a game mechanic it has the potential to be crippling to your game plan or downright annoying.

[Teetengee]

The current Chaos Codex will always be compared to 3.5 when the army was in its heyday (all Legions had unique rules, for better or worse, mono-god armies had their own armories, Daemons were apart of the same book, etc) and for good reason. A lot has been lost from that book that many Chaos players aren't too happy about, and it doesn't help that Loyalist Space Marines have gained many of the things we used to have.

 

That's all in the past though. What matters is why the codex is somewhat lacking (though not terrible) today in the current metagame, and I think it comes down to three key points:

 

1) Chaos Marines suffer some losses in the shooting department to balance their 'improved' melee capabilities, but being an effective melee army requires many key components that aren't present in their entirety for an economical enough price for competitive use. Effective melee units need to be (1) Mobile, 12" movement minimum via transport, wargear, or unit type, (2) Well equipped, Power Weapons preferable, and (3) Statistically set up for CC.

 

As a whole Chaos units generally possess only one of the above, and hence are ineffective in CC, or have 2 of the above and are expensive. The one exception is Chaos Spawns, who have (1) and (3) which makes up for a lack of (2) and are reasonably priced.

 

2) For a single point more, Vanilla Marines get ATSKNF, Combat Squads, and Chapter Tactics. The kicker here is Chapter Tactics which are very powerful and completely open to the choice of the player. Given this state of affairs, its no small wonder Chaos Marines seem lacking and forced to pay too much for things. It's not unreasonable to expect that given what they had in 3.5, Chaos Marines should be entitled to free Chaos Legion benefits too.

 

3) Champions of Chaos is a double edged sword, but its arguably more of a handicap given that it forces Chaos players to equip their characters for combat or suffer the consequences. Even if you do that and win the challenge, there's no guarantee you are going to get a roll on the table that's useful... in fact you could actually turn your expensive HQ into a Spawn for WINNING. It may work in fluff, but as a game mechanic it has the potential to be crippling to your game plan or downright annoying.

 

CSM are probably overcostd by 1-3 points base. (I vote for 2, as they are roughly worse than loyalists by 1 point for each of the atsknf, combat squads, and chapter tactics.)

[incinerator950]

Like Forte said, I feel it's because it might not fit the idea people have of Chaos. Also, what seems to be widespread here is the fact that it's not legion rules, and I just wanted to chime in and give a parallel with C:SM. With the new C:SM codex as well, armies play very differently and I believe what upsets many people is that new Codex releases are not expansions/revisions of existing armies but new armies altogether, and change tends to upset people by taking them out of their comfort zone and that's easily understandable.

 

Many people pick the Chapter Tactics in hopes of making a unique army that will play vastly differently than SM armies of different Chapter Tactics. More power to them, but it's not the best way to be effective on the table, because essentially C:SM is Codex: Ultramarines with different kinks for each Chapter Tactics. Even with the IF CT, you won't be able to make the IF Legion and not taking assault elements or fast moving units will be akin to bolter drilling yourself in the foot. Same for Raven Guard, a pure Scout/Assault Marines force is fluffy, but without Tactical squads or long range support you'll get facerolled by any other assault army.

 

I've seen Chaos armies that worked very well on the table and others that failed miserably. I'm interested in making a Chaos army sometime, and I feel that the lack of focus many have spoken about is actually a lot of freedom and power to build a very distinctive army... But with great power comes great responsibility and its the responsibility of the player to fiddle with all the options presented and find balance or a theme that work on the tabletop !

 

One big difference in the mechanics of Chaos versus Loyalists is that loyalists do not have overwhelming firepower (that's right) and are more of a precision tool, while with Chaos you can field units with overwhelming firepower. Warp Talons ? Yes please ! 20 men Chaos Marines squads, yes please ! Autocannon Havocs, yes please !

 

Once again I'm no Chaos player yet, but the Dark Gods have whispered to me on multiple occasions and I'm tempted to start one too, as soon as I find a theme that I like !

What comfort zone have we had since 3.5?  PM and Obliterator spam?  Lash Princes?  Biker Stars or Mauler rushes?  CSMs became generic joats and because most of the units don't specialize, they're not good at it.  Berzerkers need to be babied or pimped into FW just to live long enough to do good, and I'd still rather have Death Company or BTs for Centurion support compared to Obliterators.

 

Our firepower isn't overwhelming at all.  NMs are still base marines with some speed to them.  :cuss are still more pricey than dakka preds, neither are in regular formations, and ground Ack Ack sucks unless you have overwhelming amounts of it. 

[chaplain belisarius]

Guys don't put the op off! :)

 

Csm are not a win every time army but why would you want that? Do you like rapid firing the enemy. Then charging into combat? I do. Its why I like csm.

 

Have fun and don't worry about the power gamers! :)

[Lucio]

Whilst I'm a relatively recent returnee to the hobby, I'm not convinced that the Chaos Space Marine codex itself is inherently bad. What I do think is wrong is that GW's ongoing strategy of making the Potential Recruits (aka loyalist marines) list as being the best there is. It's been the case that edition after edition, the first list out is the loyalist Marines list, and that often contains ideas taken from the previous edition and sets the tone for the edition. So they'll get almost all the tricks available, some of the new ideas to test which get balanced later on and so on.

 

[incinerator950]

Guys don't put the op off! :)

 

Csm are not a win every time army but why would you want that? Do you like rapid firing the enemy. Then charging into combat? I do. Its why I like csm.

 

Have fun and don't worry about the power gamers! :)

I'm not worried about power gamers, I'm worried about GW screwing us over for 8th edition. Casepoint GW needs to decide on what they want for us to be besides twhirly mustache fodder.

 

Winning is and isn't everything. In a game you have to pay to play, you better get your time, energy, and money's worth out of a product. Competitive drive only goes until you're playing easier to win, IE eldar, or playing harder to win, dark angels or Chaos Marines. Tying your hand behind your back is exactly the feeling this army has right now unless you play idiots, casual gamers, or you're power gaming.

 

GW stopped giving a :cuss when Andy Chambers upped, left, and found a better career with Blizzard. So for now it's mild milking until they ram the next piece of garbage down so they can sell a few awful looking machines, or desperately needed Obliterators or marine mutations.