Ophidium Gulf Incident: Why is it assumed the DA did it?

[Firepower]

I dunno, considering that it's already been stated that the Dark Angels not only held the Gulf at gunpoint after they took Cypher, but that there was also an exchange of fire after the fact, it's most plausible to believe they came back to finish the job when the Templars' guard was down.

 

Considering the importance you lot put on not just the Fallen, but Cypher in particular, it could've been decided by whatever shady fellow you all put in charge of the fleet (keyword, Angels had a fleet, not just one ship) that any knowledge of his existence at all was too dangerous.  It's no different from the Inquisition's methods of purging anyone that knows anything about anything.

 

But regardless of whether or not the Angels' fleet dealt the final blow, that they fired on the Templars at all is easily enough reason for a reckoning in the future.  I can't imagine they'd be satisfied with leaving it to the hands of an Inquisitor.  

 

At least not the proper Templars.  The new abominations that answer to the Ecclesiarchy for some reason may indeed be satisfied with an Inquisitor's findings...my God, it all makes sense now!  You rolled us! You monsters!:P

[Interrogator Stobz]

Don't get me wrong FP, I hope we did finish the job :devil: I am ashamed that we needed to but until the last Fallen is captured I will retain that shame.

I just like that the details are vague enough to leave us wondering...

[Gillyfish]

I think the problem with the story is that there are cases of the Fallen and Cypher being found where the DA didn't eliminate the population which raises the question of 'why this time?'

 

Granted, you could argue that the answer is because the opportunity presented itself, but engaging another set of space marines, especially loyalist space marines is something that no chapter would undertake lightly. There are certainly cases of loyalist chapters attacking other loyalist chapters, so it is certainly not impossible, but was it only the presence of Cypher that triggered it or what he told the Templars (and what they may have let slip).

 

I don't recall the entry saying who fired first either (willing to be told if I'm wrong on that though and it does state it clearly).

[Chaplain Lucifer]

In the first version of Ophidium Gulf the DA only powered up the weapons, they didn't even fire.

 

 

I dunno, considering that it's already been stated that the Dark Angels not only held the Gulf at gunpoint after they took Cypher, but that there was also an exchange of fire after the fact, it's most plausible to believe they came back to finish the job when the Templars' guard was down.

Do you really think that the BTwould leave the guard down after the incident, with DA still in the vicinity? That would be foolish at best...

[Brother dean]

Or that the Templars let their Guard down at all...  The Navagators and the Astropathic Choir on their own ship are witches and need to be watched...

[Knight of the Raven]

Dark Angels never let their guard down either.

Unless you mean they let the Imperial Guard down, then they do that a lot.

[Smasher225]

The dark Angels will leave anyone out to dry. They don't care about honour they care about glory or at least they did during the great crusade. Now all they care about is hiding the fact they are opportunistic pigs by slaughtering the brothers that are actually loyal to the imperium. Sorry that was the wolf in me talking, well on to the topic at hand.

 

The DA's to me will hunt the fallen and make sure no one knows they were there or the fallen exists. Since the BT's captured a fallen the DA's probably did shut them up by destroying the ship. And why would a chapter be on guard with an another chapter there. They both are the emperors Angels they know if one attacked the other without suspecting heresy it would be an act of heresy if one guy survived. (Why the DA's leave nothing behind)

 

So it's just another case of the DA's protecting the secret of the fallen. Nothing more and nothing else. It's easy to explain the disappearance of a single ship as they could be lost in the warp or attacked by any number of xenos. In the end countless sons of dorn are dead and the secret of the first is kept.

[Knight of the Raven]

And why would a chapter be on guard with an another chapter there. They both are the emperors Angels they know if one attacked the other without suspecting heresy it would be an act of heresy if one guy survived. (Why the DA's leave nothing behind)

I don't know about you, but if some allied fleet powered up their weapons at me while handing me an ultimatum, I'd be on my guard afterwards.

 

(I'd always be on my guard around Flesh Tearers too. I'd say Minotaurs as well, but I doubt they'll give me enough time to be suspicious before attacking.)

[Brother-Sergeant Bohemond]

Nah, we just didn't care that Russ wanted to sate his pathetic honour and, in the process, disrupt a carefully planned battle attack, sacrifice more Astartes than necessary and, in general, let his 'honour' get in the way. It wasn't anything about glory. In fact, if he had just stayed in bed, sleeping, we would have taken the fortress without any puppies dying. :P

 

Eh, Ophidium Gulf is left deliberately vague, a bit like that Inquisitor who also 'disappeared under attack' while the only Imperial vessel (a Dark Angel Cruiser) in the vicinity reported that they saw nothing. The likelihood of it being the Angels, though, is pretty high - its why the secret is even worse now than it was 10,000 years ago. It covers not only the Fallen but everything they have done since to keep that a secret and capture the Fallen. That said, why everyone is sooo suspicious of our agenda beats me, after all, we are the longest serving Loyal Legion Chapter ;)

[Phoebus]

A couple of things...

Could someone other than the Dark Angels have destroyed the Ophidium Gulf? Sure. Cypher is known to work with other Fallen. Some of those Fallen have been known to lead fleets of their own. It's not inconceivable that the destruction of the Templars' warship was a belated rescue effort.

Did someone other than the Dark Angels destroy the Ophiudim Gulf? I doubt it. While the account in question is ended with an air of mystery, there isn't so much as a hint to a third party being there... and the whole affair obviously builds on the pre-existing theme of the Dark Angels doing anything in the name of preserving their secret.

As for the Templars actually doing something about it? Come on, gentlemen. The past ten millennia have seen you succumb to hubris and fanaticism; don't add wishful dreaming to your tally of folly. You play at being an unusually large Chapter - something that the new Administratum scribe known as Guy Haley may very well reveal to have been a myth of the past. The Dark Angels, on the other hand, aren't just a Chapter. They are a Legion, however many different names their Successors might go by. There's a reason why, despite all the stories of Inquisitors poking their noses in the business of the sons of the Lion, nothing ever comes out of it: they can't afford the fight that would follow*.

So think about that the next time you imagine Helbrecht rallying the Templars against the Dark Angels. He has his so-called Crusades all around the Galaxy? So be it. The Dark Angels have Chapters all around the Galaxy, each of which is greater than their forces by far. How many other "unfortunate mysterious incidents" would need to occur before Helnrecht summons the wisdom to send them back to "crusading as usual"?

Ave Imperator!

* Note, that's far different from saying the Dark Angels would "win" anything against the Imperium at large.

[ElectricPaladin]

I do think you are underestimating the degree to which the chapters of the Adeptus Astartes - and, in fact, the entire Imperium - are bound to each other by webs of duty, obligation, and friendship. You talk about how all the chapters of the Unforgiven could be called on to come to the Dark Angels' aid, and that's why they "really" outnumber the Black Templars. Well... be that as it may, how many other Sons of Dorn would come to the Black Templars' rescue? The Imperial Fists might not be the Ultramarines, with a successor in ever sector, but they aren't the Blood Angels, with no successors in millenia, either!

 

And let's talk about the Blood Angels. And the White Scars. And the Salamanders. And the Ultramarines. And the Raven Guard. And the Iron Hands. And all of their successors. Whose side would they pick, if it came to it? And even if they didn't commit warships and soldiers, which side would they be more friendly towards? To whom would they pass information? Who would they let retreat into their territory and take refuge on their planets? The Dark Angels have been behaving this way for ten thousand years. They have a lot of enemies among the children of the other legions - and that's not counting the Militarum regiments, mortal warmasters, Inquisitors, canonesses, and High Lords of Terra that they've pissed off over the years. And with some of those folks come more Space Marine chapters - the Grey Knights, the Red Hunters, and the Minotaurs.

 

That's not to say that the Dark Angels would definitely lose, either. They would be a formidable opponent. And depending on how it shook out, some of those forces might also be on their side. For example - the Astartes tend to get very cagey about the High Lords of Terra trying to exert too much authority over them, so if the brawl was started by a High Lord sending the Minotaurs after the Dark Angels, you might see some of the more hierarchy-minded chapters backing the Dark Angels... except that then the High Lord could exploit Terra's ancestral terror of Astartes to send in more Militarum regiments and Sororitas Orders. If it was an Inquisitor who started the fight, it might all turn out very differently.

 

And you're probably right - the Imperium would probably be wiser as a whole if it let the Dark Angels play their conspiracy games. After all, they do occasionally trip and land on some Chaos Marines or Eldar and kill them by accident, and they only occasionally blow up ships full of relatively innocent Astartes or mortals, so it all comes out in the wash. If push comes to shove, the Dark Angels would probably obey a direct order to come to Terra's defense against, say, the Tyranids or another Black Crusade.

 

But let's not have anyone make the mistake of assuming that anyone would be the clear victor. Frankly, the only winner in such a fight would be Chaos.

[Firepower]

As for the Templars actually doing something about it? Come on, gentlemen. The past ten millennia have seen you succumb to hubris and fanaticism; don't add wishful dreaming to your tally of folly.

You seem to think fanaticism is folly. Such weakness of conviction is why your kin fell, and why you will fail.

But this seems to be devolving into a peepee contest between fandoms. Perhaps we should all step back a bit? And not just because that would mean I get the final word...;)

[Phoebus]

We are not so petty as to deny you the last word, cousin. After all, what else is this topic besides a reminder of the last time the Black Templars - purportedly - got the last word on us?

** Imperial Celestial Wave Band Override/Interrupt**

** Clearance Omega Black**

**Astropathic Duct unavailable/blocked**

**Realspace Signal Priority Maxima**

**Message Begins**

This is the Ophidium Gulf, MAYDAY, MAY--

<<SIGNAL CORRUPTION>>

**Message Ends**

[ElectricPaladin]

http://cdn.meme.am/instances/500x/56405968.jpg

[Brother dean]

I was just going to say would the sons of Dorn back you up?  Does the fluff support that?  Will the 300ish Crimson Fists be able to back you up?

 

 

But now its just gone silly.

[Brother-Sergeant Bohemond]

Just remember 'Badab' as to why the Imperium won't tangle with the Unforgiven. That was against 3 Chapters and a host of auxilia. Imagine somewhere in the region of a hundred or so Chapters across the Imperium working together with no reasonable way to push them out of the war one at a time. No, the cost would not be worth it - even if you did consider the Unforgiven guilty of Heresy. 

 

The level of destruction would be immense. Of course, that does beg the question of how much will get crushed when Jonson wakes again and sees what happened to Daddy's Empire ;)

[Master Avoghai]

The only thing strange about the Ophidium Gulf to me is the way GW turned the fluff of Cypher in the last publication (Cypher dataslate)

 

Actually it seems that Cypher often appears where other fallens are or where corruption is, just like if he wants to make the DA come and solve the problem... And then disappears.

 

So finally I start wondering if there was not trace of corruption that neede to be cleansed inside the ophidium gulf...

[ElectricPaladin]

The only thing strange about the Ophidium Gulf to me is the way GW turned the fluff of Cypher in the last publication (Cypher dataslate)

 

Actually it seems that Cypher often appears where other fallens are or where corruption is, just like if he wants to make the DA come and solve the problem... And then disappears.

 

So finally I start wondering if there was not trace of corruption that neede to be cleansed inside the ophidium gulf...

 

That's actually a pretty intriguing idea... if Cypher's a good guy, and he knows how stupid obsessed the rest of the Dark Angels are, so he manipulates them into doing good by painting a big target on himself. That's clever!

[Wade Garrett]

Yes, I'm sure that if the DA and their successors gathered in Legion strength they could topple the Imperium.

 

I mean, Horus couldn't pull it off with nine Legions, the Chaos Gods, and half the Mechanicus backing him, but he didn't understand the strategic brilliance of making all making all your troops wear dresses, so....

[Brother dean]

 

The only thing strange about the Ophidium Gulf to me is the way GW turned the fluff of Cypher in the last publication (Cypher dataslate)

 

Actually it seems that Cypher often appears where other fallens are or where corruption is, just like if he wants to make the DA come and solve the problem... And then disappears.

 

So finally I start wondering if there was not trace of corruption that neede to be cleansed inside the ophidium gulf...

 

That's actually a pretty intriguing idea... if Cypher's a good guy, and he knows how stupid obsessed the rest of the Dark Angels are, so he manipulates them into doing good by painting a big target on himself. That's clever!

 

That's exactly what I think Cypher is doing.  The only questions are whether he is still the same Lord Cypher, and is he operating under the orders of a Supreme Grand Master?

[Chaplain Lucifer]

I smell two things right now... The smell of off-topic and the smell of melta powering up. Keep it on thread and with bickeries to minimum.

[Phoebus]

That's a might nice strawman you got there, Wade!

[Wade Garrett]

That's a might nice strawman you got there, Wade!

I'm no expert in logical fallacies, but I don't think attacking a position that has actually been put forward (albeit I assume in jest) is strawmanning someone.

For instance, I'm unsure of how to read this other than "CALIBAN STRONK!"

Just remember 'Badab' as to why the Imperium won't tangle with the Unforgiven. That was against 3 Chapters and a host of auxilia. Imagine somewhere in the region of a hundred or so Chapters across the Imperium working together with no reasonable way to push them out of the war one at a time. No, the cost would not be worth it - even if you did consider the Unforgiven guilty of Heresy.

The level of destruction would be immense. Of course, that does beg the question of how much will get crushed when Jonson wakes again and sees what happened to Daddy's Empire ;)

Also, Badab was four Chapters (Astral Claws, Mantis Warriors, Executioners, and Lamenters), not three. :D

[ElectricPaladin]

 

 

The only thing strange about the Ophidium Gulf to me is the way GW turned the fluff of Cypher in the last publication (Cypher dataslate)

 

Actually it seems that Cypher often appears where other fallens are or where corruption is, just like if he wants to make the DA come and solve the problem... And then disappears.

 

So finally I start wondering if there was not trace of corruption that neede to be cleansed inside the ophidium gulf...

 

That's actually a pretty intriguing idea... if Cypher's a good guy, and he knows how stupid obsessed the rest of the Dark Angels are, so he manipulates them into doing good by painting a big target on himself. That's clever!

 

That's exactly what I think Cypher is doing.  The only questions are whether he is still the same Lord Cypher, and is he operating under the orders of a Supreme Grand Master?

 

 

No, that wouldn't make any sense. The Supreme Grand Master has the authority to just tell the Dark Angels what to do - he hasn't got to manipulate them.

[Brother-Sergeant Bohemond]

Ahh, yes, 4 Chapters in the Badab war. Thank you for the correction :)

 

100+ Chapters being forced out by someone else - so not all the Imperium is necessarily opposed anyways (unlike the HH), plus all the other 40k threats which didn't exist in 30k (namely, all yo Traitors in the Warp, Orks, Nids, Crons, Eldar/DEeldar. You have a different situation to the Horus Heresy due to that anyways, and the fact that the Imperium would be very confused as to why they are attacking a First Founding Chapter + Successors in the first place - knowing the Imperiums failure to tell people anything :P Eh, maybe it wouldn't topple the Imperium, but Abaddon would love the division and I am sure he would launch the 14th Black Crusade towards Terra. 

 

So, yea, 1 v 1 its no contest; or even if we did do a HH situation, we would prolly lose, but our goals are not the same as Horus' so the war would be entirely different and the strategic situation is completely different. Heck, if the Age of Apostasy happened now, I reckon the Imperium would face collapse of much of it due to all the new external threats and the growing power of Chaos forces.