idea to make thousand sons better

[chaplain belisarius]

Hi. Just had a great idea. If a squad of rubrics are led by a sorcerer. The squad may fire overwatch.

 

What do you guys and gals think?

[walpurgisnacht]

How about they have two wounds and ignore Str 4 and below shots?

[King Jackal]

How about they have two wounds and ignore Str 4 and below shots?

Too OP, something like 2+ save for strength <toughness weapons. 4++ for strength>toughness weapons with a sorcerer power that could buff a squad to 3++

[Lucio]

The most approriate rule that they're missing is Feel No Pain, which could maybe be tied into the presence of the sorceror, however that makes a tough squad even tougher with a 3+/4++ save already and the points value would be correspondingly high.

[chaplain belisarius]

All good ideas. If they could overwatch if led by a sorcerer. Would be a nice little buff.

 

Gw never seem to get these guys right. Shame.

[Cheex]

I'm not completely up to date with Thousand Sons' fluff, but I've always felt like the Invul save doesn't really suit them properly. They are meant to be resilient against small arms fire, and need to either be blown apart by anti-tank weaponry or torn apart in combat. They also rely too heavily on the sorcerer's psychic powers actually being suitable replacements for heavy weapons (they're not).

 

My suggestions:

1. Drop the invul save.

2. The Rubric of Ahriman grants a 2+ armour save against any shooting attack that does not have the Instant Death special rule.

3. Inferno Bolts lose their AP3, but gain Rending and Ignores Cover instead.

4. Having a friendly psyker in the squad removes the Slow and Purposeful rule and replaces it with Relentless while the psyker is still joined.

 

Thoughts?

[chaplain belisarius]

Gw used to have it that they ignored weapons under strength 5 if memory serves me correctly.

 

I just think how they are is pretty good but just needs tweaking!

[Bung]

How about they have two wounds and ignore Str 4 and below shots?

 

 

Hahaha, another oldie with remembering the old rules. :D

[the jeske]

Let models with mark of tzeench join them, even if they are demon. Utility>changes to one unit.

 

If they were 2W, ignore str4 or lower [in shoting not melee] with same points cost, they maybe would be playable.

[Strazhakov]

While I like the old school rules I think 2W works best for representing the toughness of TS. Also would make potential cult Termis incredibly viable.

[L30n1d4s]

I think one way (which might be fluffy as well) to make 1K Sons competitive is to enhance the psychic options for the Squad Sorceror, in turn making 1K Sons basically the Chaos version of Sternguard:

 

-Allow Sorceror to upgrade to PML(2) for +15 points

-Give Sorceror access to Tzeentch discipline or new "Rubric Discipline:"

Primaris -- Gives self and squad ability to move like Jump Infantry (Warp Charge 1)

D1 -- Give self and squad re-rolls to all saves, armor, cover, invul (Warp Charge 2)

D2 -- Give self and squad AP2 for all shooting attacks (Warp Charge 1)

D3 -- Witchfire; S9 AP1 24" Heavy 1 (Warp Charge 1)

[Lord Asvaldir]

I think just the sorcerer's presence should buff the squad, their spells should be damage related just better than they are currently with a few options. Maybe just let them fire overwatch if a sorcerer is with the unit, though I do like the d2 option I'd love to see that. 

 

Then give the rubrik marines 2w and replace ap3 inferno bolts with rending and ignores cover as someone suggested-makes them more versatile and tougher, bump their invul save down to +5 maybe. 

[Tenebris]

From ground up the MoT needs a remake, the ++ is redundant on a PA troops model and I think a reroll would be better.

 

The second thing is that the Thousand Sons require a niche for them. As it is the Noise Marines are the better PA killers and the AP3 bolters sue inflict some pain but at the end of the day are just bolters. Personally I would make them Rending or give them a flat AP2 value to make them overall more useful. 

 

As for the unit itself, SnP is fitting because they are golems, power armor golems, but the Aspiring Sorcerer should be a buff instead of a tax. A primaris power should be given which allows for a reroll or forces a reroll on the targeted enemy unit, a debuff, in order to complement the bolters. 

 

Third thing, I would dearly like to see the Thousand Sons are a veritable alternative to the other troop choices in the book and effective at their role. The Thousand Sons as an army should be psychic heavy, this is their primary mode of damage, the Lore of Tzeentch should be fit for this role. The Rubics themselves should be able to tank wounds in order to keep the Sorcerers alive, this is and should be their primary role, thus other than fancy saves or special rules they should simply have more wounds, that's it. 

 

My only request would be for them to allow a reroll on psychic checks as per Spell Familiar but at the expenditure of a wound. 

 

How I would see them:

 

150 points for:

 

Aspiring Sorcerer + 4 Rubic Marines

 

Wounds 2-3, Rending on their bolters. 

 

 

A psychic army needs tons of wounds to mitigate the damage of perils, wounds which should be traded in return for psychic powers or buffing the psychic phase. At the end of the day, the Rubic is there to die so that the Sorcerer can cast his powers every turn, survive the casting and survive the turn to cast in the next. Simple as that. 

 

I would personally strip the Rubics of all ++ and give them 2 more wounds and Rending. 

[hummus]

There invuln saves goes down to 5plus

they can reroll any ones on either saving throw

[Xenith]

Drop aspiring sorcerors altogether. No Thousand Son Mage is aspiring.

 

Make regular Sorcerors a squad upgrade, retaining all of their options, such as the ability to purchase mastery and spell familairs.

 

The 2+ save against all but instant death wounds is a great idea.

 

Drop them to 20pts.

[Caustic63]

I see some very radical solutions to 'fixing' the Thousand Sons but they seem a bit much when really the unit only needs small changes to be brought up to par with the rest of the codex. I've used them extensively including dozens of games with Ahriman and two units of them plus daemonic allies, so I can comment with relative experience when I say what they really need is:

 

1) A more useful table of Psychic Powers. Firestorm and Boon are terrible powers, and Breath of Chaos doesn't seem like enough for two Warp Charge points. Perhaps a power to increase the resiliance of the Thousand Sons or make their weapons more accurate/powerful would be what the unit needs.

 

2) To not pay almost sixty points for the Sorcerer. Grey Knights have an entire army of psykers and they are dirt cheap in comparison, so why do Thousand Sons have to pay such a hefty premium? A points drop of 10 or 15 would make the unit overall more useable.

 

3) To cast Tzeentch powers more reliably. Tzeentch used to autopass psychic tests with NO chance to Deny the Witch... its pretty terrible to see how far things have swung the other way in 7th.  Perhaps if Psykers with a Mark of Chaos or Daemon of a Chaos God get a +1 to Manifest Warp Charge when casting a power from their god's school, this would become a lot more manageable.

[Lord Asvaldir]

Drop aspiring sorcerors altogether. No Thousand Son Mage is aspiring.

 

Make regular Sorcerors a squad upgrade, retaining all of their options, such as the ability to purchase mastery and spell familairs.

 

 

I don't think that would work out well just because that gets wicked expensive, you want lower level, just basic L.1 mastery psykers with a range of useful powers they can use, not like the crap ones they have access to now. It would only really need to be 2-3, one buff, one witchfire. 

[chaplain belisarius]

They should use the sorcerer almost as a sorcerer sergeant. Leads the squad. Makes them work better. Has lvl one.

 

Maybe sorcerer sergeants operate kind of like warlocks in guardian squads? Power that buffs squad they lead,is always active and can't be dispelled?

 

Just a thought I've had.

[Silverson]

I was thinking give them relentless and when they die instead of removing them,lay them down and on a 5+ they get back up (like necrons)

[hummus]

But then they would basically be t4 death guard

[Xenith]

 

Drop aspiring sorcerors altogether. No Thousand Son Mage is aspiring.

 

Make regular Sorcerors a squad upgrade, retaining all of their options, such as the ability to purchase mastery and spell familairs.

 

I don't think that would work out well just because that gets wicked expensive, you want lower level, just basic L.1 mastery psykers with a range of useful powers they can use, not like the crap ones they have access to now. It would only really need to be 2-3, one buff, one witchfire.

 

Ok, but that really goes against fluff. Lower levelindeed. Pfssh.

[Zeratil]

  I think giving them 2W is a good option. My impression was always that Rubric Marines were tough to put down because without flesh you had to basically hit them with enough force to shatter the armour open, rather than merely penetrate it. I think giving them 2 wounds is a good representation of this idea. The current inv save isn't so much I feel because it takes just as many bolter shots to kill rubric marines as it does any other marine. A toughness increase would also work, but that seems to be squarely in the Nurgle toolbox ruleswise, so something different is a good idea.

 

  I would like to see the sorcerer given some more options, and I really think they need an option to sacrifice a rubric marine to perils results, you're losing a 2W model so there's a price to be paid, but it means your sorcerers have some ability to use their psychic powers more reliably. One of mine almost always kill themselves in the first few turns even when throwing 'normal' amounts of psychic dice. I think an option to upgrade to level 2 would be cool, but a level one psyker is still a pretty powerful dude as far as lore goes I feel.

 

  I would also love to see the requirement to take a tzeentch power scrapped. Honestly my preference for the chaos powers would be make them powerful, but say you can only roll once on the table. That or just have them as an option like any other discipline.

 

  I would love an option to replace the aspiring sorcerer with an HQ so he has a cool bodyguard unit, I also like the idea of there being a benefit to the squad while the squad is still alive (being able to fire overwatch would be good).

 

  Cheaper cost would be nice, whatever equation GW uses to work out points costs clearly doesn't work for 1W psykers.

 

 

Oh yes. Rubric Terminators.

[Nehekhare]

how about the following:

 

mark of tzeentch is +1 invul, so I feel unyielding spectres as they are  should get a 3++.

their warp-flaming projectiles should ignore cover instead of being AP3, as this fits flame weapons more, e.g. loyalist dragonbreath ammunition.

Because of Ahriman's knowledge of the eldar webway, rubric squads should start the game in reserve and arrive from the warp via deep-strike, re-rolling the scatter dice because of precognition to provide aid unlooked for to chaos forces.

fearless is a given, but maybe also fear, because horrors of the warp?

slow and purposeful is sort of characterful, so just keep it.

give them all +1A - they are veterans of 10000 years after all.

The XV. Legion did employ more weapkns than bolters, so some more weapon options like e.g. standart tac squad specials/heavy (relentless) should be enough.

the sorcerer should definately get +1 WS like the HQ sorc and maybe not use the standart psychic mechanics - they should just work, like with the old mark of tzeentch, maybe reduce the powers instead: only one sorcerer gets a power that, like, reanimates the rubrics with the power of stolen souls (provides FnP, +1 if anything within 12" fail LD checks, about the price of a rhino?)

 

Heck, maybe there could be a formation of 2+ units that reduce the leadership in 12" around them so psykers freak out on perils more, could call it "spectral horror" or something...

 

oh wait ;)

[Excessus]

Flamers of Tzeentch are described as so tough you have to hack them to pieces to stop them...T4 W2...

 

Thousand Sons should have 2 wounds and daemon of tzeentch, and rending bolters. Also, bring back "the sorcerer commands" and make them relentless while he's alive.

 

Psychic powers and such is a fix for the codex, not the unit...

[Iron_Within]

IMO. What Thousand Sons are automata with basic powerful anti MEQ weaponry due to it's sorceric nature. But this is just on their own. They are effectively sorceric constructs and so can be manipulated with the right magic to performing different tasks. This would allow the TS unit to become a more versatile the more power is pumped into them, able to adapt to any enemy, but the more magic it requires.

 

Thousand Sons:

2 Wounds, Relentless, 4+ Invulnerable Save.

 

Weapons: Bolt Pistol, Boltgun, CCW. All Bolt Weapons are AP:3 1 in 5 can take a Heavy Bolter.

 

Special Rules: Bodyguards: Failed LOS! saves made by characters or independent characters joining this unit can be re-rolled.

 

Sorcerer has access to a special Rubric Sorcery table that changes what the unit can do (these are off the top of my head). The intent is for the Sorcerer to have access to all of them and cast per turn

 

- spell 1

Blessing. Boltguns become, salvo 2/4 AP:5 Heavy Bolters become Salvo 3/6 AP:5

- spell 2

Blessing. Boltguns become range 30 Heavy 1 Blast, S3, range 48" Heavy Bolters become heavy 3 Blast S4

- spell 3

Blessing. Boltguns become Template, AP:5 Rending. Heavy Bolters become Template AP:4 Rending.

- spell 4

Blessing. Boltguns become Heavy 1 S:6 AP:2, Lance Heavy Bolters become Heavy 2 S:6 AP2, Lance