idea to make thousand sons better

[Thaelion Hexis]

Two wounds would be the way forward for me. Keep the saves and bolters. The unit sorcerer could do with being level 1 or 2, and just knowing a fixed power or two, much like some grey knight and tyranid units. Doom bolt and a buff/debuff

[Xenith]

or, as I've been saying for a while, make them like the other animated suit of armour in the game, Wraithguard.

 

S4 T6 3+ save.

 

I agree that ignores cover is better and more fitting than AP3, and actually has the unit fill a niche :)

[hummus]

How about just using legion of the damNed rules

3 plus invul, deep strike and ignores cover

[Skallagoose]

I want to say for fluff increased toughness would be the way to go- but thats already on the board. Then i want to say a 4 or 5 fnp, but thats on the board. They are suits of 3+ armor controlled by sand… thats pretty freaking cool and a lot of potential. Currently they have slow and purposeful. I'd either let them have access to heavy weapons (to finally utilize this properly) or to take it off (if led by a sorc). 

 

I would make their invul a 3+, so they always have a 3+ and have a 5 up FNP.

I would remove the AP3 rounds for Ignore cover and add a special heavy weapon just for them- something similar to a heavy bolted but Thousand Sons version.

I would also say that the Sorc is a lvl 1, but in a squad of Thousand Sons of 5+ (or more) he becomes a lvl 2 (draw the psychic power separately and the squad drops below the amount you lose the ability). 

 

In regards to the psychic phase- well i play Fantasy and Tz is fickle as f***. Warpflame makes a lot of people not take that over other options. I would have 7 powers;

0- Witchfire- with random assault/strength and ap 3 (this could be the replacement for ap 3 bolts)

1- Witchfire- A weaker witchfire, maybe assault 1 AP - St 3 causes pinning

2- Witchfire- Template Pink Fire type spell

3- Focused Witchfire- Something for sniping Heroes 

4-Witchfire- Assault 1, strength 10, ordinance (or really long range melta)- Something lacking from TS is anti-tank. I think they need at least one psychic power that can reliably put a hull point on a big vehicle once a turn- especially with the amount of super heavies and big stuff on the board

5- Blessing- Increase the invul save of a squad (or psyche's squad) by 1 to a max of 2/3 (i can see how a 2+ save is OP but so is ALL of eldar)

6- my favorite spell from fantasy i think would be awesome here- Gateway; Str2d6 Assault 2d6. Roll Strength first- if an 11 or 12 add 1d to the assault roll. 

 

Just some ideas. Tz is all about witch fire spells and i think thats how they got shafted for so long- but with psychers making more of an appearance in this edition GW just needs to open the doors allow Tz for flourish. 

[Lord Asvaldir]

In regards to the psychic phase- well i play Fantasy and Tz is fickle as f***. 

 

Well at least in fantasy with an army that lacks shooting it's useful, in 40k the Tzeentch powers are just crap except for doombolt. 

 

I feel like FnP should not be given to thousand sons, plague marines already have it and Slaanesh units can get it with their icon-too much overlap. Instead just make thousand sons 2w, change ap3 bolts to rending and ignore cover (just ignore cover isn't good enough I think, makes them just normal bolters in too many situations). Heavy bolter option would be great, I feel like it makes sense for sons to not have a lot in the way of special weapons since psykers should fill that roll, but an option to take heavy bolters with inferno bolts would be nice. In that case I'd just say leave them with slow and purposeful, but with the added bonus that if a sorcerer is still alive they get overwatch as some people have mentioned. 

 

For sorcerer spells, we could go on for a long time about that-all that really matters is that they are decent opposed to being the crap they are now. Maybe 2-3 witchfire powers, 1 blessing to enhance his squad. 

[Skallagoose]

What about something for the lore of tz as a whole? A new unit? With the way war hammer meta has gone- it would need to be something fast. Im sure they have a lot of sculpts or ideas from Nagash's armies- just buff them up to a 40k setting.

 

I was thinking either disk cav (brotherhood of sorc unit with disks and an improved invul. Sort of a tz answer to bikes)

 

maybe use something similar to a morghast sculpt- have it be like flying mutilators or terminators. 

 

Or a new vehicle that utilizes psycher energy. Maybe something that has a bound psycher spell that buffs a cannon to improve strength or AP. 

 

 

Ok- maybe I'm just going off the deep end with these thoughts. The idea is to increase the movement abilities (in this meta that is the most important thing). So faster units could really benefit the lore.

 

I haven't played Thousand Sons yet, just been thinking of lists. So take whatever i say with a grain of sea salt 

 

Going back to the actual topic though; 

-Yea, replaced the AP 3 bolters with Ignore Cover and rending seems like a good balance. especially because there is no special weapons. 

-Reduce cost. 23 per model is high.

-I don't think its too much to ask for a 3+/3++. Other units in the game have similar. Because +T is already in the codex and FNP is also in the codex redundantly, i think having a 3+/3++ is a decent substitute for the lore (sure you can put a big hole in me- but I'm still sand).

-I think an extra wound would either cost too much or be overpowered honestly. You're doubling the amount of damage the unit can take… they would be THE hardest to kill troop units in the game. I don't think its horribly overpowered if its a 3+/4++ slow and purposeful 20+ points a model, but still overpowered. Only way i could see that working is if they only had a 5+ invul, which i think the people would complain about too (even though people complain about everything)

 

All that being said- I really like Thousand Sons- and thats why I'm looking at getting into them. Even nerfed as they are. I also would prefer to be an underdog rather then the most competitive army. 

[Prodigal Son of Magnus]

I would drop the invulnerable save and instead give them a 4+ 'Reanimation' safe, akin to Reanimation protocols as long as the Sorcerer is alive. Id make it so that they can take special weapons and heavy weapons. And id give them terminator armor, Bike and Jump Pack upgrade options. I'd also give the Sons different ammo based on what psychic table the Sorcerer rolls on. Something like:

Tzeentch: AP3 rounds

Pyromancy (Pyrae): Ignores Dover

Biomancy (Pavoni): Poisoned 4+

Divination (Corvidae): Ignore line of sight

Telekinesis (Athanaean): +1 strength

Telepathy (Raptora): reroll hits

This would give them a lot more flavor than the pale shadow they are now.

[Thaelion Hexis]

I would take away the table for the thousand sons sorcerers. Again, using grey knights as an example (not read a lot of the newer codices), they generally have the higher ranked units, i.e. HQs, having access to a few tables and the lower ranked psykers, like strike squads and purifiers having access to one or two fixed powers, based on mastery level.

 

A single power with two modes of use, like warp blast. Doom bolt, with two profiles. Focused bolt, S8 AP1 assault 1. Dispersed bolt, S5 AP3 assault 3 

I could live with the rest of the unit staying exactly as it is, with just the sorcerer brought into focus. I always liked that the base sons were just bolter armed, with the role of the squad determined by the sorcerer leading them. 

[Skallagoose]

I would drop the invulnerable save and instead give them a 4+ 'Reanimation' safe, akin to Reanimation protocols as long as the Sorcerer is alive. Id make it so that they can take special weapons and heavy weapons. And id give them terminator armor, Bike and Jump Pack upgrade options. I'd also give the Sons different ammo based on what psychic table the Sorcerer rolls on. Something like:

 

This. I wouldn't do the special weapons for the troops choice. Just rending and ignore cover. But this effectively gives them a 4+ FNP without being a FNP. 

 

I also don't know about the psycher determining the bullet type- because psychers can only choose from Tzeench (MoT and sorc lvl 1 means the only spell comes from MoT)- so i'd just remove AP 3 and add rending and ignore cover.

[Carrack]

Didn't inferno bolts used to have the blast option? How did that play out? I think it might be a pain in the neck, especially if you fielded a full squad of 20 in rapid fire mode, but maybe have the blast property as a special or heavy weapon and leave them ap 3

[Lord Asvaldir]

I don't think blast makes a whole lot of sense, and as you said it would be a huge pain rapid firing with that squad. 

 

Really the changes don't need to be that big at all, sure the rubric marines could be made tougher, the inferno bolts rule could change, however if they dropped a point or two per model in cost that would really do the trick, plus giving the sorcerer access to decent powers. 

[Skallagoose]

Ok i thought of this too- what about an unit of Tzeentch adds 1 dice to your casting/psycher pool, but thousand sons add 2 (one for the unit and one for the Sorc)

[tdemayo]

I think from a game-design perspective, the trick is to make the thousand sons tough, but different than plague marines (who are also tough).

 

Thus, I'd favor making them 2W, becuase it's quite different than PMs. If I kept them at 1 wound, and give them increased T instead, I'd stay away from T5, and make them T6.

 

I think I would not give them FNP, as that would make them feel too Nurgly.

[Lord Asvaldir]

Ok i thought of this too- what about an unit of Tzeentch adds 1 dice to your casting/psycher pool, but thousand sons add 2 (one for the unit and one for the Sorc)

 

Thing is that makes little sense lore wise. Rubric marines have no psychic presence of any sort,  they shouldn't be making your powers better.

 

T6 or 2w would be nice, however in both cases it might be a bit too good. T6 for sure, that makes them almost immune to small arms fire. 2w on the other hand could work but it would drove their price up a lot.  

[tdemayo]

T6 would make Thousand Sons a lot like Wraithguard, which are interesting and powerful without being overwhelming.

 

It would also make them tough in the right sorts of ways -- able to resist small weapons but not more powerful ones. Right now, the 4++ save makes them more durable than a basic marine only against high ap weapon, but exactly the same against massed small arms.

[Lord Asvaldir]

That's very true, I'm just thinking though since Plague Marines already have increased toughness, something different to represent their resilience may be better-such as 2w. 

[chaplain belisarius]

I like the toughness six idea. Represents how hard to destroy they are.

 

Got a very radical idea.

 

Mark of tzeentch no longer adds one to invulnerable save and instead makes them better at magic (as I feel they should be!)

 

Any thoughts?

[Lucio]

One radical idea would be to make them AV10 vehicles and 1HP, with a 6++ save from the Mark of Tzeentch being retained. Makes them immune to lasguns, unlikely to die from bolter fire and progressively more vulnerable to heavy weapons.

[Shuggnuggath]

If they are T6 are they immune to poison? Seems like they should be since they are just dust inside.

[tdemayo]

Poison is its own seperately ridiculous issue. Things like wraith lords really shouldn't be vulnerable to poison either. The fix should be in the poison rules themselves, not in individual units.

[Teetengee]

I think 2w gets much of the toughness 6 effect across while also not causing poison issues (generally).

[Lord Asvaldir]

I like the toughness six idea. Represents how hard to destroy they are.

 

Got a very radical idea.

 

Mark of tzeentch no longer adds one to invulnerable save and instead makes them better at magic (as I feel they should be!)

 

Any thoughts?

 

It shouldn't be a flat bonus to the psychic powers, as the normal marine troops have no connection to psychic powers and rubric marines cannot do anything related to the warp at all due to their current state. For sorcerers with MoT though, they should get a bonus like an extra wrap charge. 

 

One radical idea would be to make them AV10 vehicles and 1HP, with a 6++ save from the Mark of Tzeentch being retained. Makes them immune to lasguns, unlikely to die from bolter fire and progressively more vulnerable to heavy weapons.

 

I don't see why you would do that when t6 would just have the same effect yet represent rubric marines better. 

 

2w would be a fine counter to poison, or they could just be immune. 

[*Furyou Miko]

MoT should be something like 'use your invun save against wounds from Perils' or something.

[Excessus]

At least wraithbone is organic, unlike NDKs and Tau suits...

[chaplain belisarius]

Didn't the mot used to make you automatically pass psychic tests and/or were immune to perils of the warp?

 

Something like that for sorceries and just make the rubrics implacable tough bullet shields?