Abaddon.

[Loesh]

Yes, I know, it's one of these threads but hear me out.

 

So everyone's pretty familiar that I like to post long thinky discussions on topics like the Legions, what it means to be a Chaos Sorcerer, etc. One part of my brain, while up this night in the maddening throes of insomnia said why don't I do a character study both in terms of lore and outside development of a character? and then it went a step further and said, why don't we do this for Abaddon and then the other part of my brain said that was the stupidest thing it's ever thought of, both halves as a whole agreed, but then decided to do it anyway.

 

Either this will be a fantastic discussion, or a cataclysm of remarkable proportions, i'm banking on number 2.

 

Now, while bouncing around on the forums here for the last couple months i'v heard a lot of talk about Abaddon since the Talon of Horus. I find the core problems with them tend to be they either come from the standpoint of 'Abaddon is great, he's been considered a failure for so long and now he's getting just deserved lore, we should just accept this rearranging of the Chaos dynamic over something that's really always been there anyway' or 'Abaddon is terrible, he should of stayed a failure, and all Legions are dead.' sometimes i'v encountered opinions on the subject from both sides that are more extreme then even this, and those tend to be disasters. 

 

So in the interest of a good analysis I will try to be objective but, do however note, being objective is impossible so I will endeavor to merely try and be content with it. While I post this, I shall not be an Emperors Children Fan, I shall instead try to be Generic Fan of Everything #46829765 who despite typing on a forum right now, does not actually attend forums that often and has just been subsisting on Codices and Novels for the last twenty years as well as...presumably...plain white bread and water.

 

Abaddon as a character has gone through some turbulent changes recently, as a character he is now finally starting to get some good context to himself and his legion. Portrayals have been done before, but they are somewhat...inept...where he's been shown as a sort of Darth Vader like figure, in lore and sometimes even in rules: For example, one of the rules for the Planet Killer in Battlefield Gothic is that if any ship fails a leadership test around the planet killer, Abaddon would fire on it despite this being an absolutely stupid waste of resources, in reality Abaddon and the Black Legion should probably be a little less evil empire and more dark rebel Alliance.

 

For people who might be new to the forums or Warhammer in general, i'll give a barebones rundown of Abaddons history: At one point during the Great Crusade you could probably make a good case for Abaddon being one of the best Space Marines to ever live, he was an exemplar in a Legion of exemplars to the Imperium. Following Horus defeat at the hands of the Emperor he fled into the Eye of Terror with the rest of his legion, hiding away while most of it died to a combination of the Legion Wars and angering the Dark Gods one time too many, during this time he nursed a bitter resentment towards Horus or as Daemons know him, the 'Sacrificed King' and began to see him as a weakling and a fool. So when Horus had his remains stolen and was being cloned by Fabius Bile, after killing the Clone Abaddon took his place at the head of a new Legion which he dubbed the 'Black Legion' and began to collect allies and resources until it was the biggest one in the entire Eye of Terror.

 

Now in lore and on the table this has been reflected.....not so well, the Black Legions lacked a lot of context and clarification(In broader strokes, you could argue in comparison to the loyalists every Chaos Legion suffers this to one degree or another.) and this has resulted in things like the Failbaddon Meme where it's claimed the other twelve of his Black Crusades were failures, where until recently we just didn't know that much about them and assumed they were aimed at Terra, which in itself is a bit of a fallacy too because from what lore i'v studied i'm not even convinced Terra's destruction is that important to a Chaos victory at this point. This is a big problem for Chaos as while their much different then the Ultramarines, they occupy the same spot as a poster boy.

 

If someone was just getting into Chaos, the Black Legion is what i'd reach for first to show them....that's just how that is....i'd say 'Look, these guys have a pretty cool paintjob, their themes can apply to about any warband you can think up, and they have access to all four gods' they are not actually generic, but they are a good template for beginners. But then you go and look at their track record...or lack of one...and go 'Errrgh' and that could very well turn someone off to Chaos.

 

So Abaddons finally getting some recognition, hurrah right? Wellllllll not quite, both for reasons petty and reasons justified in my personal view. In the former column, reputations have the unfortunate habit of being clingy, it's hard to get rid of a nickname...if it sticks, it sticks for a long time. On the other hand what other people are feeling is that they value their own legions more, legions are an extremely cool identity for Space Marine players Chaos and Loyalist alike, perhaps even more so for the former as they never split up into Chapters. Back in Warhammer: Eternal Crusades forums there was big push to rename the Tactical to Legionnaire to distinguish, because people love their legions that much. Fluff wise there's more focus towards renegades and the like with the Legions as something more further back in the past...problem is that doesn't stick, all those unified colors look good on a table, and the sense of history is awesome where the Black Legion sort of rejects it's history. This combines to make some people feel like the Black Legion is a threat to all other Chaos Legions, viewing it both as positive and negative....the latter is a rabble rouser to people who care deeply about their own Legions, and the former's just a confirmation of their fears. 

 

Furthermore it has to be shown that Abaddon has the chops to lead the Crusades and even have the Daemon Primarchs offer assistance...some feel even work under him, this is a problem because...to put it simply...i'm not sure this is a thing that can be done. Or not in the nearly universal capacity it needs to be shown without ruffling some serious feathers, allow me to explain: With Abaddons Primarch Horus, Horus is the best of all the Primarchs and this is why he is Warmaster, the lore seems to take this in a somewhat factual way though like all lore it's up to interpretation. The problem lies in that, when you show him in the Horus Heresy series or Codices, you kind of realize the best way for him to be the best is to not actually show him at all because if he does everything expertly, he becomes a Mary Sue in the true definition of the word, but if you try to characterize him then you open him up to subjective opinions and things like...for example his relationship with the Raven Guard is more emblematic of a gloryhound then the best Primarch ever, so Catch 22. In the same vein the Abaddon from the Talon of Horus may be inspiring to some people and they would follow him to hell and back, but for me I probably wouldn't follow him to the local supermarket.

 

And that is my analysis of Abaddon the character both with how far he's come and the problems that come with him, you may now throw your rocks.

[Kol Saresk]

I find fault with analysis number 1. Abaddon has never been a failure. Its that people have looked at him as though he were a failure because they assumed the Twelve previous Black Crusades were twelve attempts to march on Terra. And from there they compare him to Horus. And then ignore all the evidence that has been in the lore since day 1 while doing the comparison. Because who needs accuracy?

[A D-B]

The problem lies in that, when you show him in the Horus Heresy series or Codices, you kind of realize the best way for him to be the best is to not actually show him at all because if he does everything expertly, he becomes a Mary Sue in the true definition of the word, but if you try to characterize him then you open him up to subjective opinions and things like...for example his relationship with the Raven Guard is more emblematic of a gloryhound then the best Primarch ever, so Catch 22. In the same vein the Abaddon from the Talon of Horus may be inspiring to some people and they would follow him to hell and back, but for me I probably wouldn't follow him to the local supermarket.

 

It's a minefield, all right. No argument there. I'll strip my reply down to the absolutely most relevant jazz, then go back to work, as my lunch break's almost done. 

 

Part of the problem is that they've very obviously tried not showing him at all in the past, just telling everyone that he's a big deal in the lore, and that was a major contributor in spawning all the memes. So, really, you have to show him. Plus, he's an interesting character in a unique place, and deserves to be shown a little.

 

But that's the key. A little. The Black Legion Series is about the Black Legion, not him. Its main character is Khayon, not Abaddon. While Khayon is at Abaddon's side a lot of the time, he's also at a lot of other characters' sides, and - like any Legion - the Black Legion's warbands are all over the place. Abaddon isn't everywhere. Much in the same way that Leonidas and Polynikes weren't the main characters of Gates of Fire, and that 'King' Arthur was threaded through the Warlord Chronicles without even being one of the main folks Derfel Cadarn hung out with most of the time. 

 

Abaddon is barely in The Talon of Horus, and when he shows up it's just the very first glimpses of him. Khayon barely understands what changes he's been through. Ashur-Kai is deeply suspicious of him. On reflection, Khayon discusses just what he first began to see in just how Abaddon was such a skilled leader, but there's still very little to go on yet. 

 

So, no, I'm not worried. He won't be shown as much as many other characters, and I've read a wealth of awesome historical fiction that handles showing Alexander the Great, Leonidas, Dienekes, Hektor, King Arthur, Alfred the Great, etc. in intriguing doses rather than every detail of their lives. That was an intentional choice. Some books, Abaddon will show up a fair amount. Other times, not much at all. 

 

And, a key point, he doesn't do everything expertly. That's not a worry worth having. There are no stories about an uninterrupted rise to awesomeness and prominence with no struggle and unadulterated success. That's not a story, and no one would spend years of their life writing it. Success may come eventually, but it comes with sacrifice, loss, betrayal, errors made in the heat of the moment, bad luck, and very intelligent enemies occasionally screwing you over hardcore. Otherwise, why tell the story?

[Loesh]

 

-snip-

 

 

Of course, all things I one hundred percent agree with, apologies if that last part came off as a little snippy by the way, as you can probably tell when I wrote that, I was very sleepy. For what it's worth, I think what little you did show of him was probably the best way he could of been represented, sincerely I don't think the character could be in better hands. What I want out of a leader isn't what Abaddon is, and what he shouldn't strive be, cause even though it doesn't fit my tastes I believe that is what's best for the story.

 

Nor do I believe for a moment that Abaddon is a Mary Sue by most definitions of the word, at least not in the incarnations we've gotten. I was trying to emphasize that, from a writers standpoint, when you're talking about a character that's such a keystone you're walking on ground littered with traps you can fall into. But you probably know way more about it then me as a person who has, at best, just written popular fan fiction. :p

 

But yes, very tired as evidenced by....

 

 

I find fault with analysis number 1. Abaddon has never been a failure. Its that people have looked at him as though he were a failure because they assumed the Twelve previous Black Crusades were twelve attempts to march on Terra. And from there they compare him to Horus. And then ignore all the evidence that has been in the lore since day 1 while doing the comparison. Because who needs accuracy?

 

Yeah, I should of made more of a point that really it was something that came about as the result of ignorance even though I was trying to be even handed about the whole thing. There's reasons to love and hate Abaddon, that isn't a very a good one though. 

[the jeske]

 

Otherwise, why tell the story?

There are cultures where showing off superiorty of your own kind is both expected and liked a lot. Popular to read[aka generating big sales] too. On the other hand "too deep" or human showing of main heros is disliked. In fact support characters are offten described as having flaws only to make the main hero even greater.

[Kol Saresk]

I honestly cannot remember writing that last line. Or even meaning too.

[Tenebris]

Well let's begin by stating the obvious, Abaddon the Despoiler is a complex character and a major character in the 40k universe, perhaps the character upon which the fate of the universe is pinned and of whom a lot is expected, little understood and the most misinterpreted. 

 

I think we should begin with the notion that there is not a single Abaddon but there are many Abaddons, many different Warmasters. We know of Abaddon the First Captain of the Luna Wolves/Sons of Horus, we know of Abaddon of the Mournival, we know of Abaddon the First Chieftain of the Justaerin, Abaddon the choleric, Abaddon the inspirational figure of the common warrior in the XVIth Legion, the ideal Son of Horus, the epitome of the XVIth legion. 

 

Then we know of Abaddon the one who has fought for Horus, at the side of Horus in the Heresy, of Abaddon the man, the son, who had to carry the body of his father, the broken and souless body of Horus away from Terra, Abaddon the pilgrim, Abaddon the abandoned and betrayed son. 

 

Following that we know of Abaddon the Chaos Lord, of Abaddon the Visionary, Abaddon the Champion of Chaos, Abaddon the Lord of the Black Legion and finally Abaddon the Warmaster of Chaos.

 

Along this many interpretations of Abaddon we also learn of Abaddon the Scientist, Abaddon the Scholar, of Abaddon the Gang Warchief of Cthonia, of Abaddon the Despoiler, of Abaddon the Archnemesis of the Imperium.

 

In the few words above we glimpse in how many different aspects we see in Abaddon, how many things we need to learn about him and through him about the legions of chaos. His story is the story of the Chaos Space Marines, his goals are in general terms the goals of the Chaos Space Marines, his legion, the Black Legion is the result of his evolution as a character, of him becoming a chaos space marine, of him creating first a group, than a warband, then an army and then a legion, the Black Legion.

 

I applaud the choice to see this evolution of the character with the eyes of one of his closest brothers, with the eyes of one who has been there and done the things which Abaddon has done, who has listened and observed the evolution of the Warmaster of Chaos first hand. We see, or I hope we will see Abaddon mature and age like a fine vintage from the eyes of one, Khayon, of one brother who has been there when Abaddon was tempted, when Abaddon was furious, when Abaddon was great and when Abaddon was defeated... and so on.

 

I think that the choice to observe such a critical character in the 40k universe with a new pair of eyes, those of Khayon, who we know little of, who we have yet to learn to appreciate and understand it is indeed the right thing to do. Observing the herculean efforts of Abaddon and his maturation as a character from the Warmaster's own eyes would be wrong, legends are told by bards and storytellers, by historians and bystanders, not by the heroes themselves. 

 

I take Talon as an epic odyssey, as a legend, as a myth spiced with truth and lies, much like the person of the Warmaster himself. Nothing should be granted, nothing should be exact, for Abaddon is subject to interpretation and this is and always has been the merit of the character. It is important also that we observe him from distance, in order to not only give him as a character credence but also to allow the readers to form their own opinion. 

 

Still I can say that I am a vocal supporter of him as the archnemesis, of Abaddon the Warmaster in name, deed and form and such a figure should be handled with care, for every single action of him would send echoes across most of the other 40k factions. 

 

But above all, above everything I have written so far Abaddon is the Black Legion, the series is and should be the story of the Black Legion, the greatest legion of chaos, greatest because it dared to become something different, not a crusade era legion but a new type of legion, an evolution of the concept, an evolution of the ancient legiones astartes ideals and sweetest of all the perversion and corruption of the said ideals as a tribute to Chaos and the Dark Gods. 

 

As I have said, we will witness the coming of age, the gradual and painful history of the Black Legion through the eyes of the people who have been there at the beginning as well as at the end and though the eyes or better the character of Abaddon the Despoiler himself. 

 

In a certain way what is happening is that we of Chaos are getting our own Iliad and Odyssey, our myth and folklore with the Black Legion series, we are getting our own heroes, gods and epic battles and in a certain way this is proper, this is the spirit of 40k, the allegory, the lost myths of the past which haunt the present, the angels returned, the angels fallen and risen again. That is what Abaddon epitomizes, that is what the Black Legion is and always will be. The return of the fallen, the rise of the angles cast down into hell only to soar on black wings again. This is the story of Abaddon, this is the story of the Black Legion and this above all is the story of how the Chaos Space Marines came to be, what they are, what is this Realm of the Eye, who really are those children of the Dark Gods and demigods who once walked upon the soil of the Imperium

 

Thus I agree with the presentation of the series through the eyes of Khayon, because, well storytellers tell the stories of ancient past, it is the bards who sing of heroes and epic battles, the heroes themselves more often than not are not heroes themselves, are just people driven, people with a vision and the will to see it come to be. This is Abaddon, an unlikely hero, a marine who took the mantle of Warmaster upon himself for he understood that none other were strong enough to carry this cursed title upon their crown, he sacrificed himself for his brothers and his vision and in end turned to be consumed by it and the sacrifices it required from him. 

[Loesh]

I can agree with most of what you said Tenebris, and i'm pretty happy to...indeed...see Chaos finally get a mythic story of it's own, and I hope it's a trend that continues with more Chaos characters in the coming years.

[Prodigal Son of Magnus]

I think most of the controversy about Abaddon stems from the long-standing belief that he was a complete idiot and that all his crusades have been failures and people are shocked that the guy who used to be the laughingstock of both loyalists and traitors alike is the one who is taking down the Imperium and built the greatest legion of chaos singlehandedly. Fanboyism also has a roll in it. Imperial fans don't want to see the Imperium get beat (look at the Black Templar Thread) and the chaos players don't want the Black Legion to upstage their factions. I personally am fine with the Black Legion getting the spotlight for awhile but I don't want to see them become The Ultramarines.

[Loesh]

I think most of the controversy about Abaddon stems from the long-standing belief that he was a complete idiot and that all his crusades have been failures and people are shocked that the guy who used to be the laughingstock of both loyalists and traitors alike is the one who is taking down the Imperium and built the greatest legion of chaos singlehandedly. Fanboyism also has a roll in it. Imperial fans don't want to see the Imperium get beat (look at the Black Templar Thread) and the chaos players don't want the Black Legion to upstage their factions. I personally am fine with the Black Legion getting the spotlight for awhile but I don't want to see them become The Ultramarines.

 

I agree they shouldn't get too much, that said, I REALLY doubt they will become the Ultramarines. I mentioned they occupied the same slot as a good starter group for Chaos Space Marine players, but really their themes are so different...i'd even say, in certain cases exactly opposite...that they won't evolve that way.

[the jeske]

You know the moment BL went from practical dudes, that are blessed by all godes with the uber chaos lord at the head , to we have our own rubrics, butcher nails , noise weapons , they kind of a did became the Ultramarines of chaos. What ever other legions do or spec in BL spec in to [at worse just as good, offten better by not being limited by creed/background/etc].

[Loesh]

You know the moment BL went from practical dudes, that are blessed by all godes with the uber chaos lord at the head , to we have our own rubrics, butcher nails , noise weapons , they kind of a did became the Ultramarines of chaos. What ever other legions do or spec in BL spec in to [at worse just as good, offten better by not being limited by creed/background/etc].

 

It's a fear I have that the Black Legion becomes better then everyone else at everything, but that's a fear that isn't manifest and...at the moment...is irrational.

 

As I often like to bring up: Devram Korda and the Children of Torment were beaten by an Emperor's Children Warband, with an elixir of invincibility to back them up no less. Just because they can do everything, doesn't mean they are the best at everything.

[Prodigal Son of Magnus]

You know the moment BL went from practical dudes, that are blessed by all godes with the uber chaos lord at the head , to we have our own rubrics, butcher nails , noise weapons , they kind of a did became the Ultramarines of chaos. What ever other legions do or spec in BL spec in to [at worse just as good, offten better by not being limited by creed/background/etc].

Pretty sure the only thing they can replicate is the Butcher's Nails, and in the fluff article it says that the World Eaters are better at it. The other cult troops are most likely from their original legion but decided to take the black. And when I said Ultramarines I meant more the attitude of "we are the bestest, superior to all the other chapters/legions who emulate every facet of our chapter/legion and the ones who don't are butthurt that they aren't us"

[Loesh]

 

You know the moment BL went from practical dudes, that are blessed by all godes with the uber chaos lord at the head , to we have our own rubrics, butcher nails , noise weapons , they kind of a did became the Ultramarines of chaos. What ever other legions do or spec in BL spec in to [at worse just as good, offten better by not being limited by creed/background/etc].

Pretty sure the only thing they can replicate is the Butcher's Nails, and in the fluff article it says that the World Eaters are better at it. The other cult troops are most likely from their original legion but decided to take the black.

 

 

Abaddon actually has Blight Mages too, to replicate Plague Marines and Sorcerers who command and possibly make Rubrics. The exact daemonic lore for making Noise Marines is uncertain but I wouldn't be surprised if Abaddon knew how to make those as well, so in this case I agree with Jeskes reasoning but i'v come to a different conclusion.

[Kol Saresk]

Yes they have everything. They've always had everything since 2nd Edition. So for the more veteran players to act like it is something new and disappointing is..... well it raises the very sarcastic question of "where have you been?"

 

But this is what highlights the Black Legion from the Ultramarines. As Prodigal pointed out, the Ultramarines are the template Chapter that all future Chapters have been based off of. Obviously not all stick to the rigid mold they were cast in, but the point stands.

 

In contrast, the Black Legion are those hipsters who run around, see something cool and just have to have it. They aren't copied; they do the copying.

 

And the thing that ultimately makes them unique isn't their size or even a matter of how capable or organized they are. It is the fact that they are a conglomeration of all the various facets and myriad factions of the forces of Chaos and, when it counts, they stand Undivided.

 

And that's what makes Abaddon unique. He isn't the bestest bestest geneerahl. He's the man with the one will to find a way to keep the people who would normally tear each others' throats out to stand side by side and fight as brothers.

 

They aren't better. They're different and unique.

[Goreshed]

The other huge factor of Abby's fame (or lack there of) is the fact that throughout the years GW (whether or not it was done on purpose could be argued) has simply had it from the Imperials point of view. Those 12 Black Crusades are more often then naught told from their standpoint so when they end up 'winning the day' as it were, and Abby goes back to the Eye you never see them ask "What did we loose?" we only see them go "Hey, we beat Abby again LULZ!". Now we are starting to slowly see the 'what did they loose' but from the Chaos point, not the ignorant Imperial point as remember, this is where the Imperials are simply trying to hold back the tide and prevent it from sweeping the galaxy, not actually pushing back.

[Loesh]

The other huge factor of Abby's fame (or lack there of) is the fact that throughout the years GW (whether or not it was done on purpose could be argued) has simply had it from the Imperials point of view. Those 12 Black Crusades are more often then naught told from their standpoint so when they end up 'winning the day' as it were, and Abby goes back to the Eye you never see them ask "What did we loose?" we only see them go "Hey, we beat Abby again LULZ!". Now we are starting to slowly see the 'what did they loose' but from the Chaos point, not the ignorant Imperial point as remember, this is where the Imperials are simply trying to hold back the tide and prevent it from sweeping the galaxy, not actually pushing back.

 

Agreed, and really this isn't just a problem with the Black Legion. Until relatively recently there hasn't been a lot of expansion on Chaos and it's motivations, quite honestly i'm not sure if we'll ever reach a point where the Chaos Legions have...roughly...as much background information on them as their Loyalist equivalents. 

[Goreshed]

Well I like to think of chaos this way (and its part of the draw on it).

 

If we look at the loyalists side of things there are really two options to do with good old regular corpse worshiping flops of the Space Marines. You either follow an established chapter or you make your own. A lot of people like to make their own but just as many if not more like to play those that are established. But they give up something because most of those chapters have fairly well defined/hashed out fluff on them. Ultramarines could be used as the best example but I think that Space Wolves come a close second. This isn't to say that people cannot choose to use the explanation of "well this was back in the early M41st..." or something like that to explain the discrepancies. But it is still there in the back of someones mind that there is a bunch of fluff out there. Which can be good for ideas for units and such but it is still very much established.

 

The flip side of that argument is building your own chapter which in most cases there is to many variables for people to make it the exact same so the chances of two opponents meeting with the exact same chapter idea is rare but there could be a lot of similarities. The up side is the sheer amount of creation that a person can bring into it. The downside is no one knows jack about it unless they read up on it somewhere or what they tell you and which leaves little backing up in the greater scheme of things.

 

But chaos is different. And that is the beauty of it.

 

Sure we have some books now (a lot more then when I started back in the day) but not near enough as the loyalists. We have a number of legions and now warbands out there for us to play upon but in my eyes GW never really tried to round up this fluff together. All they seemed to say was "they are broken so make something up" which is, in my opinion the most backing GW has given to any one army. They want you to create the legions/warbands with your own taste on it because nothing has really been established up until now and even then there is so much wiggle room as it were in the fluff for stuff that it leaves chaos with an edge against anyone else really.

 

Which could in turn be applied to Abby or any other special character we have. There is always only snipits of these characters that we see and it wasn't until the Horus Heresy books that we really saw them fleshed out in anything but there is a ten thousand years difference between then and where the present time line is. That is a vast quantity of time to play with and leaves far more to the imagination. I want it to stay that way because I think every chaos player likes to be able to fool around with those ideas of their legion/warband having fought along side these special characters at some point, or to have had some interaction (good or bad) with them because it makes it more personal to that legion/warband army we spend far to long thinking about/modeling/painting.