What to take for assault?

[BearersOfSalvation]

This is for codex marines.

 

For really heavy assault, good old assault terminators backed up with a character should do the job fine. But they really require a land raider to do well, and that ends up eating a lot of points. I am looking at lighter options to go with a list that does mostly short-ranged shooting. Honor guard and Assault Centurions both need a land raider to move, and I'd rather use terminators than them if I'm going that route. Regular assault marines just seem distinctly unimpressive for the points. What's caught my eye is Vanguard veterans with jump packs - they're not a whole lot more than assault marines, but get an extra attack, multi-charge, and lots of power weapon and storm shield options. Anyone had much experience using them alone or with a jump-packed character? 

 

Also, has anyone played with an assault squad or two using the free rhino option? For 100 points, you get 5 marines with 2 flamers, 3 BP/CCW and melta bombs cruising in a rhino that they can fire both flamers from. They're not any kind of heavy hitter, but can threaten a lot of units, are pretty survivable for the points (especially in a list with a bunch of armor), and can either support stronger units or just ride to take an objective or linebreaker. It's significantly cheaper than a similar 5-man tactical squad (125 for flamer, combi flamer, melta bombs), so I'm probably going to try them and see if I like them.

[Gideon999]

I have tried vanguard, and i hate to say it, was underwhelmed.   The problem is really not that they can't dish it out, but that they can't take it.   3+ is good, but against other melee specialized squads they are still going to get munched up either by virtue of the other unit either having power weapons that negate the 3+ (howling banshees for example, who would also strike before you) or by forcing you to roll so many saves you drown in dice (ork boyz).

 

Vanguard will do well against units that arent kitted for melee (devastators, necron warriors, pretty much all tau) so if thats your intended role they could be good.

 

But if what you are looking for is a beaststick that is both killy AND survivable, there are better choices.   Sure you can stick storm shields on them, but by then they start to get expensive enough that terminators or what have you are only a hair more and would do the job way better.

 

If the issue is mainly delivery though, then consider both deep striking and allied space wolf drop pods.   Both can get your guys where you want them for a LOT less than a land raider.   And if you use locater beacons or teleport homers the scatter risk can be greatly reduced (or allied inquisitors with servo skulls work well too).

[Axagoras]

i use ravenwing vets with 2 chapter master as a great assualt unit

[Lysere]

Honor Guard, for their cost they are probably the hardest hitting and most flexible melee choice we have. They just don't get an invuln. With their base weapons they can be effective in rhinos and land raiders, just make sure you pair them up with a good HQ and mix the power weapons up a bit.

[GreyCrow]

Assault Marines are mainly geared to dealing with light infantry and pitting them against MEQ is going to be a grinding game where you only have an extra edge. Where Assault Marines shine though is for their Tactical value. Thanks to their mobility you can pretty much ensure a Turn 2 charge, and you will have the ability to tie up valuable enemy shooty units in close combat, and that is a priceless ability.

 

Gideon described the Vanguard Veterans perfectly. They can dish out but not take it, so they really aren't frontline fighters like Assault Terminators or Honour Guard are. However, they are extremely mobile with their basic kit and that is something you can use to your advantage. They can also perform well as a "jump" command squad with a combat Captain thanks to their Heroic Intervention rule, and I'm curretly planning to build one squad as such. Another ability is the fact that you can mix and match weapons, which can be great for having synergistic roles.

The squad I'm currently building will have a Sergeant with a Stormshield and Relic Blade to act as a gateway to protect the HQ, mainly tanking wounds from Instant Death weapons with AP2 or 3, a Veteran with a Lightning Claw and one with a Power Sword (they are roughly equivalent in terms of damage against MEQ, except that the Power Sword shines in multiple rounds of combat while the Claw ensures kills in the first round). The two remaining Veterans will have a Power Axe for one and another will have a Grav/Bolt Pistol gunslinging stance, mainly to get AP2 and Concussive in cases I need it.

 

That gives a squad geared for taking on enemy support units in their backfield that have 2+ or 3+ (elite hunters) and will synergize well with a Captain with a Power Fist/Lightning Claw and Jump Pack. Obviously I won't throw them against Banshees or Assault Terminators in a direct match-up, but I'll use their mobility to evade the nasty assault units of the enemy. Raven Guard Veterans are sneaky that way :p

[Iron Father Ferrum]

 

The squad I'm currently building will have a Sergeant with a Stormshield and Relic Blade to act as a gateway to protect the HQ

 

That's a LOT of points on a one wound model, and he's going to get two attacks out of that set up.  Want the stormshield for tanking, like you said?  Sure, I can see that.  But I'd stick with a chainsword or pistol of some kind.  It sounds like you'll be rolling a lot of saves on this guy, no need to sink more points into him than necessary.

[GreyCrow]

 

 

The squad I'm currently building will have a Sergeant with a Stormshield and Relic Blade to act as a gateway to protect the HQ

 

That's a LOT of points on a one wound model, and he's going to get two attacks out of that set up.  Want the stormshield for tanking, like you said?  Sure, I can see that.  But I'd stick with a chainsword or pistol of some kind.  It sounds like you'll be rolling a lot of saves on this guy, no need to sink more points into him than necessary.

 

 

That was my fear originally, but I don't expect them to be fighting more than 2 already damaged units per turn. A single wound like you said isn't exactly the best tank ever, the goal is to have the Captain tank the challenges thanks to his multiple wounds and high initiative, while the Sergeant's Stormshield will just be there to accept challenges in the odd case I'm getting caught by Instant Death melee weapons. The Relic Blade is there to help contribute damage while the Captain tanks wounds from challenges, with the intended target being MEQs and MCs.

In this scenario, the Stormshield is more of a "I've got 10 points left in my list and it's a cool insurance policy" while the Relic Blade is really what I was looking for :) Besides, because I'm building an army that I want to represent a demi-company of Raven Guard, this squad is a really great proxy for a Command Squad with jump packs !

Is it the most paper-optimized assault unit ? Definitely not, it's more for fluff purposes. But after my last games, I've come to realize that fluff Space Marine armies, as long as they are played smartly and that the list can cover every need (anti-infantry, anti-tank, with redundancies, enough bodies for resilience and still a spot for damage dealers), stand a chance against even brutally designed armies.

 

Basically, that unit is a scavenger unit rather than a dueling unit, aimed at the enemy shooty elite units or any 2+ 3+ large creatures. Counter assaulting Crisis Teams from a Stormraven in a carefully planned ambush, or sneaking up a flank behind LOS blocking terrains to wipe out Dark Reapers and Devastators. That's a 350 points scavenging unit I'll grant you that, but it's for 1850pts+ games and they fill a nice spot of elite hunters that I felt was missing in previous iterations of the list ^^

[Acebaur]

I know you said you didn't want Honor Guard because of needing a Raider, but there are other ways to deploy them. The Storm Raven comes to mind as does Drop Pod. While I've not run them myself in a pod I've heard good things as long as you support them with other dangerous units like Sternguard. 

 

Another option is the command squad on bikes. I'm currently building a squad of them myself. If kitted with Lances and 3 SS's with champ and Apoc led by a chaplain they will kill an MEQ squad on the charge. They are fast and tough, requiring 21 bolter equivalent shots in order to kill just one guy. In CC they require even more at 28) With T5 and SS's you'll get your FnP against nearly everything that matters.  

 

They will struggle against 2+ saves, but just against just about everything else they will put the hurt on. 

[Kaedes Nex]

By short-ranged shooting are you referring to 12" pistol range? Because I think that already qualifies as assault range with D6" move and 2D6" charge. Even the shortest ranged shooting armies, Tyranids, shoots further than that. And GK and Centurions as well as other armies are kings of the midrange 24" shooting.

 

It's an interesting concept, but if you're that close to the enemy there's usually more benefit to just getting into assault.

 

Did you consider Razorbacks or Drop Pods with the assault marines? You don't want a full squad of 10 anyway because with squads of 5, you get twice as many flamers, melta bombs, and if you so choose, sergeant wargear. The only thing is it will waste all your FA slots. I honestly find ASM better than VV because ASM do the same job but cheaper, and VV are overkill in that role. VV CAN do things ASM cannot, but at that point they are either too frail with 3+ or too expensive with 3++ and other assault wargear tacked on. An entire squad of melta bombers on foot seems decent on paper though.

 

Consider a chapter that lets you Scout all your infantry, Infiltrate many squads (Raptors + Lias Issodon, or anyone who can reroll Warlord Traits reliably enough to pick that specific one consistently), or use jump pack units as Objective Secured or Troops (Fire Hawks, Raven Guard + Korvydae). I know you said C:SM, but BA are also a strong consideration due to a near future update, ASM troops as standard, and getting 2 Meltaguns instead of 2 Flamers on the assault squads, as well as Fast engines.

[CrystalSeer]

Honor Guard or Assault Terminators. Yes land raiders or stormravens cost a bit, but that's because getting your squad there will destroy whatever it hits. if you take a Land Raider Crusader its a gunship unto itself in addition to delivering the beatstick.

 

Add a ministorum priest to the mix to give yourself a re-rollable 3++ in assault. Everything else we have has so few numbers you'll go down to attrition.

 

Also, Crusader Squads are excellent if you think you're worthy of wearing the black.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Honor Guard or Assault Terminators. Yes land raiders or stormravens cost a bit, but that's because getting your squad there will destroy whatever it hits. if you take a Land Raider Crusader its a gunship unto itself in addition to delivering the beatstick.

 

Add a ministorum priest to the mix to give yourself a re-rollable 3++ in assault. Everything else we have has so few numbers you'll go down to attrition.

 

Also, Crusader Squads are excellent if you think you're worthy of wearing the black.

 

Hey!  We wore black before you did.

[BearersOfSalvation]

Thanks for the answers, vanguard seem to be about where I thought they were, and there are some good ideas there. For the last couple of replies, I'm building a list focused on things like tactical marines, sternguard, vindicators, and plasma gun command squad. Switching away from marines to Grey Knights or changing to a list built on assault terminators in a land raider wouldn't end up building the kind of army I want to try out. 

[CrystalSeer]

In that case, one of my standards when I played ultramarines was a command squad, storm shields, apothecary and plasma guns. This unit was excellent at close range fire support, then held there own in cc as the attached captain went to town.

[SyNidus]

I know you said you didn't want Honor Guard because of needing a Raider, but there are other ways to deploy them. The Storm Raven comes to mind as does Drop Pod. While I've not run them myself in a pod I've heard good things as long as you support them with other dangerous units like Sternguard. 

 

Another option is the command squad on bikes. I'm currently building a squad of them myself. If kitted with Lances and 3 SS's with champ and Apoc led by a chaplain they will kill an MEQ squad on the charge. They are fast and tough, requiring 21 bolter equivalent shots in order to kill just one guy. In CC they require even more at 28) With T5 and SS's you'll get your FnP against nearly everything that matters.  

 

They will struggle against 2+ saves, but just against just about everything else they will put the hurt on.

 

Strongly making me consider taking a squad of these boys to be my shock troops/distraction to draw attention away from my main force. Though, I'd make it a lil more expensive to be more flexible and threatening.

 

Something like this:

Command squad - 5 man - Apothecary, 4 Grav guns, 3 lances, TH, 4 SS, bikes - 325

 

They're going to need a lot of shots to take them down. The 1 thunder hammer is in case they get charged or bogged down by heavy infantry.

[Acebaur]

 

I know you said you didn't want Honor Guard because of needing a Raider, but there are other ways to deploy them. The Storm Raven comes to mind as does Drop Pod. While I've not run them myself in a pod I've heard good things as long as you support them with other dangerous units like Sternguard. 

 

Another option is the command squad on bikes. I'm currently building a squad of them myself. If kitted with Lances and 3 SS's with champ and Apoc led by a chaplain they will kill an MEQ squad on the charge. They are fast and tough, requiring 21 bolter equivalent shots in order to kill just one guy. In CC they require even more at 28) With T5 and SS's you'll get your FnP against nearly everything that matters.  

 

They will struggle against 2+ saves, but just against just about everything else they will put the hurt on.

Strongly making me consider taking a squad of these boys to be my shock troops/distraction to draw attention away from my main force. Though, I'd make it a lil more expensive to be more flexible and threatening.

 

Something like this:

Command squad - 5 man - Apothecary, 4 Grav guns, 3 lances, TH, 4 SS, bikes - 325

 

They're going to need a lot of shots to take them down. The 1 thunder hammer is in case they get charged or bogged down by heavy infantry.

 

 

Ehh... At that point though they are getting really pricey for 1 wound models. 65 points per(averaged across the squad) is pretty crazy even for their durability. Also, you'll still want a chaplain if you want them to be effective in combat. That is a big reason why they are so good in CC is the re-rolls makes a big difference. 

 

The other thing is with the grav guns you don't want those guns in assault, you want them shooting every turn. 

 

I'm torn on the TH.  While it's extra S and AP are good, you lose out on the Champions WS5 and extra attack. If they get charged by heavy infantry they are probably toast. With only 5 guys they will lose the attrition war most likely. 

[Prot]

I am in this situation myself where I find moving from Dark Angels to Ultramarines the assault element is nearly nothing. Also I note by building it up too much it takes away from the Ultra strengths which usually revolves around a medium-ish distance fire fight. So there's points cost to consider.

 

So far I've dabbled with pricier units and have not liked the outcome. I try to keep my armies light in HQ points usually opting for Tigurius but again, I find in assault my army is drastically reduced in effectiveness without a counter punch. 

 

So saying that Honour Guard are the most bang for the buck (I've never tried them) what is the best config for them in 1850? Do you put an HQ with them? Or are they best alone? Preferred delivery system? Pod? Rhino? LR?

[GreyCrow]

With the Honour Guard, I would keep them anti heavy infantry with a mix of Power Swords and Power Axes. You basically want them to be a roadblock for any unit with an AP3 that might threaten your force, and keep them away from AP2 units.

 

Rhino can work to keep them cheap, unloading them in cover, then going out in my humble opinion.

[Sheesh Mode]

What do you want the assault unit to do? 

 

I run chosen. Chosen are a phenomenal counter to light and medium infantry (6+ - 3+ saves or T2 - T4/5) and is reliable against larger units of light infantry or slightly larger units of range-centric medium infantry. Tau, Guard, spacemarines (of all loyalist kinds) and both variations of Eldar are examples of armies that rightly fear chosen, however they can all field units that are suitable foils to chosen. Whether they are T6, have an invulnerable save, a 2+ and/or powerweapons, Chosen are not suited for combat against other more durable assault units. They also becoming extremely expensive when upgraded and require a Landraider. 

 

The same applies for all of the selections in Codex Spacemarines, save terminators and Vanguard. A squad of five thunder-hammer terminators will cost a hundred points less than a full squad of chosen built for the same task (Elite killing) and do the job better because of their durability. Vanguard on the other hand can be equipped to accomplish most of the same tasks as Chosen with the potential upgrade of invulnerables, but without special weapons or bolters. 

 

Spacemarines are handicapped by the lack of general specialization in their army in-terms of assault. (It's one of the reasons Chaos is more proficient in assault than SM, but I digress) 

 

In order to maximize the utility of a squad you need to consider how that unit fits into the rest of your army. Do you want a hard-hitting rapid-response unit like Vanguard veterans to follow in behind your rhinos and Landraider(s)? Do you want a near-invincible unit of Terminators armed with Stormshields and Thunderhammers? Or do you want a unit of honorguard who are expressly designed to counter units like chosen and vanguard veterans? It's up to you. 

[SyNidus]

There's a lot of derision for the Vanguard Veterams. The Mathammer doesn't see to favour them. They are accused of being too expensive. Inefficient. The list goes on.

 

But I'm here to tell you not to listen to the press. I've been using vanguard vets since they first came out and I can say that they are amazing. In this edition they got even better with the cheaper price.

 

Why bother with Hammernators or assault centurions, which are so much more expensive, are overkill and lack independent mobility? Assault marines, while mobile lack sufficient punch and are better at tying up units than they are killing them? What of the honour guard, you say? Well I say why settle for infantry models that only move 6" per turn and require transport?

 

If you want to have long plodding games where the assault is a meat grinder, useful only for slowing them game down to a grinding halt, then go with the units I mentioned above.

 

But! If what you want is action! Devastating combats upon which the fate of the very battle rests! If you want a cheap unit with lethality and mobility in equal measure, a unit which can kill multiple enemy units in one assault phase. With options and choices to spare! Look no further than the Vanguard Veterans.

 

They're mobile. They dish out tons of attacks. If you use RG chapter tactics, they become even better. Time and again, the vanguard vets hit with such speed, ferocity and surprise that the opponent is left dumbfounded when he has to remove 2 whole units off the table from one turn of assault. And then, it's too let because I'm already in their lines and the next turn I'm going to multi charge again and remove another 2 units from the table...assuming he did not already conceded when he lost the first 2 units.

 

However, the most cost effective way I've found of running them is to have a full squad with 2-3 TH/SS guys in the mix. This way you still get your hidden thunder hammers. Through in a chaplain and they become that much scarier with the re-rolls. Their other great strength is being able to multi-charge without penalty, people get stuck in this mindset of only charging one unit, but why bother with that when you can remove 2 units instead? Indeed, if you're smart about it and your opponent is close enough to each other, you can get 3.

 

Beware though, vanguard are not for the faint of heart. They are for the decisive man looking for decisive action! You will find opponents conceding quickly after the first batch of units is destroyed by your vanguard!

 

This is the loadout I generally use:

Vanguard veterans - 10 man - 2 TH/SS, Sgt w TH/SS - 340

 

Accompanied by the chaplain, they become that much more deadly.

[Hyuzanriu]

Ravenguard players really need to stop trying to make Vanguard Vets work. I would sooner take Assualt Marines. For what most Ravenguard players spend on their VVs I could buy almost twice as many assault marines. Boys before toys guys, we might not be orks but it still holds true.

 

For my assault units I am partial to Honor Guard, they just have the terrible misfortune of coming with a 130+ point tax (CM + Transport, because walking is terribad). My next favorite is Assault/Tactical Terminators, but for the sake of actually being good Assault Terminators are where it is at. Sure they are usually overkill, but what you want dead is dead and they can handle the backlash that comes with wrecking someones favorite unit's face.

[Lysere]

There's a lot of derision for the Vanguard Veterams. The Mathammer doesn't see to favour them. They are accused of being too expensive. Inefficient. The list goes on.

 

But I'm here to tell you not to listen to the press. I've been using vanguard vets since they first came out and I can say that they are amazing. In this edition they got even better with the cheaper price.

 

Why bother with Hammernators or assault centurions, which are so much more expensive, are overkill and lack independent mobility? Assault marines, while mobile lack sufficient punch and are better at tying up units than they are killing them? What of the honour guard, you say? Well I say why settle for infantry models that only move 6" per turn and require transport?

 

If you want to have long plodding games where the assault is a meat grinder, useful only for slowing them game down to a grinding halt, then go with the units I mentioned above.

 

But! If what you want is action! Devastating combats upon which the fate of the very battle rests! If you want a cheap unit with lethality and mobility in equal measure, a unit which can kill multiple enemy units in one assault phase. With options and choices to spare! Look no further than the Vanguard Veterans.

 

They're mobile. They dish out tons of attacks. If you use RG chapter tactics, they become even better. Time and again, the vanguard vets hit with such speed, ferocity and surprise that the opponent is left dumbfounded when he has to remove 2 whole units off the table from one turn of assault. And then, it's too let because I'm already in their lines and the next turn I'm going to multi charge again and remove another 2 units from the table...assuming he did not already conceded when he lost the first 2 units.

 

However, the most cost effective way I've found of running them is to have a full squad with 2-3 TH/SS guys in the mix. This way you still get your hidden thunder hammers. Through in a chaplain and they become that much scarier with the re-rolls. Their other great strength is being able to multi-charge without penalty, people get stuck in this mindset of only charging one unit, but why bother with that when you can remove 2 units instead? Indeed, if you're smart about it and your opponent is close enough to each other, you can get 3.

 

Beware though, vanguard are not for the faint of heart. They are for the decisive man looking for decisive action! You will find opponents conceding quickly after the first batch of units is destroyed by your vanguard!

 

This is the loadout I generally use:

Vanguard veterans - 10 man - 2 TH/SS, Sgt w TH/SS - 340

 

Accompanied by the chaplain, they become that much more deadly.

 

Needing a transport for Honorguard isn't much of an issue, there is a reason we have the Land Raider Crusader. Add in warlord and potential secondary hq for maximum front line smashing.

 

Agreed though on the point that Vanguard Vets are not meant to get stuck fighting. They need to hit, steam roll, and keep moving. Since they are much cheaper with jump packs than they used to be it's actually possible to give them some weapons without breaking the list.

 

I haven't used them in some time, mostly because I haven't put assault marines on the table in some time since my local meta makes it hard to use them well. Maybe soon I'll throw them down with an assault army and get some use out of them.

[Hyuzanriu]

Honor Guard and VVs both suffer from wrecking face then being shot at because they swept/killed everything. At least when I field them. If I had to pick one to get shot at, it would be Honor Guard because of 2+/6+FnP (Iron Hands). The unit usually kills things in the first assault round even without their CM joining in.

 

EDIT: Which is why I advocate for terminators. All three units can/will win their combats, especially if being used as bully units, the terminators can just handle more punishment with a 2+/3++.

[SyNidus]

Ravenguard players really need to stop trying to make Vanguard Vets work. I would sooner take Assualt Marines. For what most Ravenguard players spend on their VVs I could buy almost twice as many assault marines. Boys before toys guys, we might not be orks but it still holds true.

 

For my assault units I am partial to Honor Guard, they just have the terrible misfortune of coming with a 130+ point tax (CM + Transport, because walking is terribad). My next favorite is Assault/Tactical Terminators, but for the sake of actually being good Assault Terminators are where it is at. Sure they are usually overkill, but what you want dead is dead and they can handle the backlash that comes with wrecking someones favorite unit's face.

  

Honor Guard and VVs both suffer from wrecking face then being shot at because they swept/killed everything. At least when I field them. If I had to pick one to get shot at, it would be Honor Guard because of 2+/6+FnP (Iron Hands). The unit usually kills things in the first assault round even without their CM joining in.

 

EDIT: Which is why I advocate for terminators. All three units can/will win their combats, especially if being used as bully units, the terminators can just handle more punishment with a 2+/3++.

 

 

While I can't speak for all RG players, for my part I will say that I'm not "trying" to make Vanguard Vets - they are working for me. The way I see it, Vanguard Vets have something that other options you mentioned doesn't have. Which is unchallenged mobility, unlike the honour guard or terminators, which require a transport to have mobility close to what vanguard vets have, they naturally have a threat radius of about 24" (give or take a few, due to random charge distance). This is especially so with RG chapter tactics because of wings of deliverance.

 

Yes, the honour guard by itself can tank more small arms fire because of the 2+, but because they lack independent mobility, if they are for whatever reason unable to get back into their transport, they'll spend more time footslogging and tanking those shots. The same is true with Hammernators, what's more they can't even attempt to sweeping advance. So if the enemy breaks, they still have a chance of regrouping. My vanguard generally only spend 1 - 2 turns out of combat, tops. They are also able to multi-charge better than any other unit in the codex. And honestly, being only 3+ armour save isn't a problem when you've got ICs in Arti armour and stormshields tanking the shots. It's as good, if not better than honour guard or Hammernators because unlike those 2 units, they can't be kited the same way those guys are.

 

On top of that they have a much improved hammer of wrath which is deceptively powerful. These are essentially free hits at s4 with re-rolls to wound. I've killed more than a few big scary units (termies, daemon princes) due to HoW. This is where a chase for assault marines may be made, but honestly, they lack the weight of dice, they also lack the ability to wield hidden power fists, or stormshields. Sure you've got tons of em (but not by much really, at 340 you've got 15 models spread over 2-3 units. Smaller 5 man teams will be easy to remove from play. Than a single large 10 man squad appropriately equipped and accompanied).

 

This is why I choose Vanguard veterans any day.

 

 

 

 

There's a lot of derision for the Vanguard Veterams. The Mathammer doesn't see to favour them. They are accused of being too expensive. Inefficient. The list goes on.

But I'm here to tell you not to listen to the press. I've been using vanguard vets since they first came out and I can say that they are amazing. In this edition they got even better with the cheaper price.

Why bother with Hammernators or assault centurions, which are so much more expensive, are overkill and lack independent mobility? Assault marines, while mobile lack sufficient punch and are better at tying up units than they are killing them? What of the honour guard, you say? Well I say why settle for infantry models that only move 6" per turn and require transport?

If you want to have long plodding games where the assault is a meat grinder, useful only for slowing them game down to a grinding halt, then go with the units I mentioned above.

But! If what you want is action! Devastating combats upon which the fate of the very battle rests! If you want a cheap unit with lethality and mobility in equal measure, a unit which can kill multiple enemy units in one assault phase. With options and choices to spare! Look no further than the Vanguard Veterans.

They're mobile. They dish out tons of attacks. If you use RG chapter tactics, they become even better. Time and again, the vanguard vets hit with such speed, ferocity and surprise that the opponent is left dumbfounded when he has to remove 2 whole units off the table from one turn of assault. And then, it's too let because I'm already in their lines and the next turn I'm going to multi charge again and remove another 2 units from the table...assuming he did not already conceded when he lost the first 2 units.

However, the most cost effective way I've found of running them is to have a full squad with 2-3 TH/SS guys in the mix. This way you still get your hidden thunder hammers. Through in a chaplain and they become that much scarier with the re-rolls. Their other great strength is being able to multi-charge without penalty, people get stuck in this mindset of only charging one unit, but why bother with that when you can remove 2 units instead? Indeed, if you're smart about it and your opponent is close enough to each other, you can get 3.

Beware though, vanguard are not for the faint of heart. They are for the decisive man looking for decisive action! You will find opponents conceding quickly after the first batch of units is destroyed by your vanguard!

This is the loadout I generally use:

Vanguard veterans - 10 man - 2 TH/SS, Sgt w TH/SS - 340

Accompanied by the chaplain, they become that much more deadly.

 

 

Needing a transport for Honorguard isn't much of an issue, there is a reason we have the Land Raider Crusader. Add in warlord and potential secondary hq for maximum front line smashing.

 

Agreed though on the point that Vanguard Vets are not meant to get stuck fighting. They need to hit, steam roll, and keep moving. Since they are much cheaper with jump packs than they used to be it's actually possible to give them some weapons without breaking the list.

 

I haven't used them in some time, mostly because I haven't put assault marines on the table in some time since my local meta makes it hard to use them well. Maybe soon I'll throw them down with an assault army and get some use out of them.

I personally don't use land raiders for fluff reasons, but also, these are extremely expensive for something so vulnerable to Melta fire. There's no doubt it is effective, but I've found my opponents have a harder time dealing with my vanguard than I have dealing with land raiders.

 

At the end of the day, I can see where you guys are coming from, but I'm just sharing with you what works for me and what, IMO works best.

[Hyuzanriu]

     SyNidus your unit is probably one of the few optimally equipped VV units I have ever seen, but despite the points being spent well it is still 340 points. For 339 I can take one 9 man Assault Squad and one 8 man Assault Squad, both with Veteran SGTs and Power Weapons. 17 marines vs 10 marines. Sure one unit of Assault Marines lacks the same weight of dice, but there are two units here. Your unit of VVs puts out 37 attacks on the charge. These two slightly smaller units of Assault marines put out 53 attacks on the charge. The assault marines also don't have as many power weapons to clear things, but that can be mitigated by using the two units together. Have the two separate units function as one unit would. The Assault Marines are just as mobile and only slightly less durable, which can be mitigated by screening them with rhinos since only the SGT can take a stormshield.

 

     At the end of the day I always try to be a man of logic. SyNidus, despite all the hate that VVs have received on various thread I have seen you be nothing less than logical when stating your case. You have presented personal experience, proper use, and given examples of what the unit is capable of. I don't think I have touched my VVs in almost a year, so perhaps it is time to whip them back out. I also believe that we have different targets in mind for our Assault units, you mentioned having killed Demon Princes and the like, while I steer my assault units away from anything even remotely as killy as them. I bully with my assault units and aim to kill troops/weaker units instead of let them do all the heavy lifting. I will attempt to try out both the Assault Marines as well as the VVs as a heavy lifter and see how they do. Testing will soon commence. Can't promise that I will like them, since I still prefer cheaper units (unless that unit is a tank, then I spend all the points), but you have swayed me to give them another chance.

[Lysere]

I almost took vanguard vets today, but then I swapped chapter tactics and I ran out of points making the list fluffy. If I ever ran Raven Guard tactics I'd most certainly run VV.

 

Your set up is much better than many I've seen and done, I have to wonder about putting the TH/SS on the same model though, to avoid precision shot sniping? Makes sense on the sergeant though.

 

There is also a certain fear factor that seeing a VV unit jumping next to you with big mean hammers has, that even 30 assault marines just doesn't. Probably something to do with having giant hammers that smash all manner of armor and infantry.