What to take for assault?

[SyNidus]

Hyuzanriu, that's more than I can ask and even if you don't like them, it's all good. Thank you for the great compliment I confess, there are a number of reasons why I don't use the assault squads, despite being able to field larger numbers and a lot of it has to do with my army design philosophies. There's nothing inherently wrong with what you say about the number of bodies and weight of dice that so many assault marines can bring. You're absolutely right. Where I disagree is in the ease of their use.

With a 10 man squad, I can hide them behind 2 rhinos (or razorbacks, as I do) quite comfortably, essentially advancing up the field unhindered. I can't see myself being able to do the same with assault marines. In the kind of volumes that are equivalent in points values. The only other option is to move them aggressively up the field in the open, and they die just as easily as vanguard. The end result is that by the time assault is reached, they would've arrived in combat reduced to a number where their advantage in weight becomes marginal. The vanguard don't have that problem because they are small enough to manoeuvre behind cover easily while still packing a punch.

And you're right that I use the vanguard for a different role entirely. Personally, I've found that bully-able units tend to be very easily dealt with by shooty elements rather than assault. In the assault, these targets may act as a tar pit, keeping your jump troops from moving on to the next target. Furthermore, most hard targets are hard because they're toughness is high enough to limit the use of Bolters (our most numerous weapon) or they have a fairly strong cover save or some other defense.

This is why I want to take them in assault - they have no where to run. Furthermore, the psychological effect of seeing Daemon Prince Nutcracker go down under a flurry of hammer blows and grenades in assault shouldn't be discounted. In the time I've been using this set up I've won a good number of games by assault (I.e. After the vanguard gouge out the centre of an opponent's army causing them to concede shortly after).

Lastly, for theme and fluff reasons, I rely heavily on my fast attack slots to fill in the fire support roles usually accomplished by the heavy support slots.

All that being said, I've never played any chapter other than the Raven guard, even when it was the fashion to play counts as using the BA codex. I can't attest to their viability for other chapter tactics.



@Lysere, I used to use the stormshields on non-TH models, but I would find that the hammers would be removed by ap ignoring shots such as heldrakes. And for something like that, which can pick and choose which angle to attack from (and therefore the sequence of wound allocation), I don't know how I can form them up. This is quite an issue when you're faced with things like Deepstriking Wraithguard.



EDIT: Shameless plug here...If you're curious as to how I build my lists, here's the one i'm currently on. http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/299176-help-with-the-last-piece-of-the-puzzle-1850-raven-guard/

[Lysere]

Makes sense, forgot about Heldrakes and the like. Might have to make a few hammer shield Vanguard Vets next time I buy a box and see how they play out. I've got plenty of other power weapons with jump packs anyway.

[BearersOfSalvation]

I like the discussion here, I will have to try vanguard on a future list, they look interesting. After all the real life getting in the way, I ended up going with almost no assault in the list I'm using next.

[Sheesh Mode]

From using Raptors I find jump packs a fantastic addition for an aggressive mechanized army and understand the need for a strong assault unit to support the more shooting-centric armies of the space marines. It is not difficult for me to imagine how vanguard veterans work for an army that focuses largely on mid-range firepower, having a series of fast transports breaking open transports for the vanguard veterans to assault the contents is an interesting and impressive combination. It is certainly similar to how I run my chosen.