shortysl Posted November 23, 2014 Share Posted November 23, 2014 I'll preface the rest of this post by saying that I almost certainly have been spending too much time thinking about it: Garran Crowe shares the dual titles/responsibilities of being both head, and champion, of the Purifier Order. Of course I understand that the Purifiers and Paladins are Orders rather than Brotherhoods but we can safely say that Crowe's role as head of the Purifiers conflicts with his role as champion. The role of the champion within the Grey Knights is to protect their Brother-Captain, giving their life in his stead so that the knowledge and experience of a great hero of the Chapter isn't lost. While Garran Crowe isn't a Brother-Captain (because he leads an Order rather than a Brotherhood), he is cited as being head of the Purifiers, a position roughly equivalent to Brother-Captain although perhaps not quite so senior within the Chapter. So herein lies my confusion; Garran Crowe's responsibility as leader of the Order is to preserve his knowledge and experience as much as any Space Marine can be expected to, but his responsibility as champion of the Purifiers is to give his life in defence of the Order's leader if necessary......... Any thoughts? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/299593-a-thought-about-crowes-role/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Everon Posted November 23, 2014 Share Posted November 23, 2014 He earned champion title because he is the best swordsman on titan and because of the blade of antwr he takes no bodyguards for fear they may turn on him so it sort of fits that he is the orders champion by being solo a lot and the best swordsman. But to be the leader as well was just a bad decision to give him both duties. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/299593-a-thought-about-crowes-role/#findComment-3869059 Share on other sites More sharing options...
raverrn Posted November 23, 2014 Share Posted November 23, 2014 He's not really equivalent to a Brother-Captain, though. The Purifiers are separate from the rest of the GK unit organization. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/299593-a-thought-about-crowes-role/#findComment-3869130 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quozzo Posted November 24, 2014 Share Posted November 24, 2014 He's not really equivalent to a Brother-Captain, though. The Purifiers are separate from the rest of the GK unit organization. Yet he is the champion, which insinuates there should be a captain to protect and that he is the equivalent rank to a champion from a brotherhood. I think the champion title is more honorary due to Crowes swordsmanship than anything formal, although it begs the question who the hell is the champion of the paladins, the brother-captain, or even the grandmaster. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/299593-a-thought-about-crowes-role/#findComment-3869334 Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffersonian000 Posted November 24, 2014 Share Posted November 24, 2014 Crowe is a Brotherhood Champion that is first amoung equals, being the best swordsman currently serving the Grey Knights. In addition, his purity is so pure, he is purer than the purist pure amoung the purist of pure, putting him squarely within the purist of pure Orders, the Purifiers. As the purist of the purist as well as the champion of champions, Crowe is the honorary head of the Order. Crowe's duties of babysitting a sentient sword prevent him from actually leading any organization, let alone performing his actual duties as a Brotherhood Champion. Thankfully, there is at least one Brotherhood that does not require a Champion at this time. <cough> Draigo's <cough> SJ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/299593-a-thought-about-crowes-role/#findComment-3869369 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted November 24, 2014 Share Posted November 24, 2014 I'm sorry, but how pure is he? Kinda missed that. ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/299593-a-thought-about-crowes-role/#findComment-3869551 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted November 24, 2014 Share Posted November 24, 2014 Well technically Draigo doesn't lead a Brotherhood, as he's Supreme Grandmaster. He calls upon the Paladins if he wants to take to the field in a serious way, that's his equivalent. Normally of course he'd just fight alongside a strikeforce, which could be squads from different Brotherhoods or just one (it varies based on need and deployment). The Purifiers aren't a Brotherhoood. The codex is pretty explicit about it. They, like the Paladins, exist as a wholly seperate formation within the Chapter. They're like special forces, they almost never fight as a single entity in the field, they get detached on a squad by squad basis to 'regular' Brotherhoods. Of course the Brotherhoods themselves rarely fight as one either, so its mostly just strikeforces. Crowe's title is Castellan, not Captain or Grandmaster. Its a very specific rank for the Grey Knights. It denotes the greatest Champion the Chapter has. It's not like he's an officer in the normal chain of command of the Chapter. The Purifiers almost never fight as one, they'd only do so if several Brotherhoods (at least) were engaged in the mission at hand. In that scenario Crowe wouldn't even be commanding them, they'd be fighting in conjunction with the orders of a Brother-Captain or Grandmaster. Whenever Crowe takes the field he usually fights alone anyway (his fight against Skulltaker is a pretty classic example ie he lures the enemy champion away in a pointless single combat to buy time, while his brothers win the battle). I'm sure Purifiers are afforded a lot of respect and they'd be at the fore of the fight anyway, so its not like they need much ordering (they're supposed to be combat veterans even before they join anyway, although of course the Purifiers recruit whoever meets their criteria, so its not always the case). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/299593-a-thought-about-crowes-role/#findComment-3869601 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted November 24, 2014 Share Posted November 24, 2014 I still don't understand how him killing folk with a Daemon Weapon is ok, becuase he doesn't use any of it's powers. It's still a Daemon Weapon taking lives... Gotta be a Heresy, right? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/299593-a-thought-about-crowes-role/#findComment-3869624 Share on other sites More sharing options...
shortysl Posted November 24, 2014 Author Share Posted November 24, 2014 Ok so page 26 of Codex: Grey Knights specifically states that Crowe is both head and Brotherhood Champion of the Purifier Order, and that his position was granted to him due to his unquestionably pure soul. Nothing to do with his swordsmanship. As I stated in my original post, I am entirely aware that the Purifiers are NOT a Brotherhood. The Blade of Antwyr is Crowe's reason for fighting alone, but this does not change the fact that his dual roles are in direct conflict with each other. The only way I can see that this would not be the case is if 'head of the Order' is an honorary title with no actual authority rather than a formal rank. However, page 27 then gives an example of an occasion on which Crowe was chosen by a Grandmaster to lead the Purifiers. As Castellan, I can imagine Crowe perhaps being more of a representative between the Purifiers and the chapter council than a true Captain figure but fundamentally, this is a problem for me. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/299593-a-thought-about-crowes-role/#findComment-3869648 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted November 24, 2014 Share Posted November 24, 2014 I'd don't care, I'd still have Ward back, and his fluff! /begging on hands and knees Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/299593-a-thought-about-crowes-role/#findComment-3869674 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted November 24, 2014 Share Posted November 24, 2014 I still don't understand how him killing folk with a Daemon Weapon is ok, becuase he doesn't use any of it's powers. It's still a Daemon Weapon taking lives... Gotta be a Heresy, right? Yeah but the thing is, its not just about killing. You have to offer up the people you slay to the deity in the sword. It's a warp entity, its powered by the amount of souls it controls. Because Crowe doesn't draw on the sword's power or offer up anything to it, it can't taint him. Obviously he still kills things, but the deity gets no power from it. Ok so page 26 of Codex: Grey Knights specifically states that Crowe is both head and Brotherhood Champion of the Purifier Order, and that his position was granted to him due to his unquestionably pure soul. Nothing to do with his swordsmanship. As I stated in my original post, I am entirely aware that the Purifiers are NOT a Brotherhood. Yeah but its also true he's the most skilled swordsman in the entire Chapter. It goes with the part. Purifiers are recruited due to their purity and their leader is chosen from their number. I agree he wasn't chosen purely for his martial ability, but it does go with the role he plays for the Chapter. Part of his job is standing pure in the face of evil like Skulltaker, who is basically rage incarnate. So, martial ability is a big plus, but its his incorruptibility which is the main reason he's Castellan. The Blade of Antwyr is Crowe's reason for fighting alone, but this does not change the fact that his dual roles are in direct conflict with each other. The only way I can see that this would not be the case is if 'head of the Order' is an honorary title with no actual authority rather than a formal rank. However, page 27 then gives an example of an occasion on which Crowe was chosen by a Grandmaster to lead the Purifiers. As Castellan, I can imagine Crowe perhaps being more of a representative between the Purifiers and the chapter council than a true Captain figure but fundamentally, this is a problem for me. Well, think of it this way. The Purifiers are a breed apart from their regular Grey Knight brethren, and they have specific duties. However, they still need a leader (the Paladins are lead in war by the Supreme Grandmaster). The title of Castellan represents the special role of the Purifers. I'm sure Crowe has input into the Chapter's business, but he's not a Grand Master. For example, while I'm sure his opinion (and the opinion of the Purifiers in general) would be respected, its the Grand Masters who elect the Supreme Grand Master. It's not an officer rank, but being Castellan of the Purifiers is a rare honour and a heavy burden. I wouldn't get too worried about it. As I mentioned earlier, the role of Castellan (as exemplified by Crowe) isn't to be involved in the strategic or even tactical planning of a mission. The ranking Captain or Grand Master would do that. The Castellan's job is to fight enemy champions and warlords that no other Grey Knight can hope to face (not even the senior officers), as well as confronting evil of a similar scale. After all, not even Draigo could wield the Sword of Antwyr. It's a functional rank (the Castellan leads the Purifiers), but it stands apart from the normal chain of command in the Chapter. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/299593-a-thought-about-crowes-role/#findComment-3869727 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quozzo Posted November 24, 2014 Share Posted November 24, 2014 That may be the case, but he is still the brotherhood champion (which the title itself is wrong) of the purifiers. The codex says something along the lines of: "The chief responsibility of the brotherhood champion is to guard the brother-captain." The purifiers have no brother-captain, but they do have a leader... Crowe. It does seem rather contradictory, if the title was solely given to the best swordsman who would use his skills to kickass then that would be different, but the job of the Brotherhood champion is to protect the brother-captain. So in essence, Crowe needs to lay down his life to protect his life. :S Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/299593-a-thought-about-crowes-role/#findComment-3869756 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted November 24, 2014 Share Posted November 24, 2014 You have to offer up the people you slay to the deity in the sword. Not according to Khorne you don't. ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/299593-a-thought-about-crowes-role/#findComment-3869761 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted November 24, 2014 Share Posted November 24, 2014 That may be the case, but he is still the brotherhood champion (which the title itself is wrong) of the purifiers. The codex says something along the lines of: "The chief responsibility of the brotherhood champion is to guard the brother-captain." The purifiers have no brother-captain, but they do have a leader... Crowe. It does seem rather contradictory, if the title was solely given to the best swordsman who would use his skills to kickass then that would be different, but the job of the Brotherhood champion is to protect the brother-captain. So in essence, Crowe needs to lay down his life to protect his life. :S Yeah well as I already explained, the title of Castellan is a special case. The Purifiers aren't a Brotherhood and thus aren't considered part of the Chapter's main strength (there are usually no more than 40 anyway, they're incredibly rare even for Knights). I guess you could argue Crowe's job is to keep the Supreme Grand Master alive (as being Chief Bro Champ makes him that guy, and Paladins have been ret-conned to no longer be officer bodyguards, they're just the Chapter martial elite now). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/299593-a-thought-about-crowes-role/#findComment-3869837 Share on other sites More sharing options...
shortysl Posted November 24, 2014 Author Share Posted November 24, 2014 I see good points being made on both sides of the debate. My intent was only ever to spark a conversation about Crowe, and I'm glad that it hasn't devolved into anything darker. For my part at least, I'll no doubt continue to pour through whatever fiction I can find and continue to spend far too much time wondering about a completely irrelevant point in a codex Thank you to everyone who contributed and to those who may perhaps contribute in the future. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/299593-a-thought-about-crowes-role/#findComment-3870013 Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffersonian000 Posted November 25, 2014 Share Posted November 25, 2014 The answer to all the GK inconsistencies is that GK are Loyalist Thousand Sons (T least in training), and they use Evil to fight Evil in the name of the Greater Good. And yes, I want Ward back, too. My only gripe was a single piece of fluff; the rest was glorious! < I want my Mordrak back, too! > SJ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/299593-a-thought-about-crowes-role/#findComment-3870722 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Coolpants Posted November 25, 2014 Share Posted November 25, 2014 Amen! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/299593-a-thought-about-crowes-role/#findComment-3871018 Share on other sites More sharing options...
calvin the wraithlord Posted November 26, 2014 Share Posted November 26, 2014 Just out of curiousity, having never ran him because hes a piece of :cuss, how does he actually work? it sayes he has the smash rule? does that mean all his attacks in a challenge are smash? or he makes a single smash attack? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/299593-a-thought-about-crowes-role/#findComment-3871480 Share on other sites More sharing options...
raverrn Posted November 26, 2014 Share Posted November 26, 2014 Just out of curiousity, having never ran him because hes a piece of , how does he actually work? it sayes he has the smash rule? does that mean all his attacks in a challenge are smash? or he makes a single smash attack? Should probably read what the Smash special rule does. It's pretty clear (and very good.) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/299593-a-thought-about-crowes-role/#findComment-3871490 Share on other sites More sharing options...
calvin the wraithlord Posted November 26, 2014 Share Posted November 26, 2014 I know what it does, what im curious about is, yes hes AP2 due to smash but at user ST? or is he ST8 for all his attacks, or is it just usual smash rules, e.g, he can choose to make one attack double STR etc etc Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/299593-a-thought-about-crowes-role/#findComment-3871526 Share on other sites More sharing options...
raverrn Posted November 26, 2014 Share Posted November 26, 2014 I know what it does, what im curious about is, yes hes AP2 due to smash but at user ST? or is he ST8 for all his attacks, or is it just usual smash rules, e.g, he can choose to make one attack double STR etc etc The rule has two parts, and they work independently of each other. Try again. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/299593-a-thought-about-crowes-role/#findComment-3871643 Share on other sites More sharing options...
calvin the wraithlord Posted November 26, 2014 Share Posted November 26, 2014 What part of "does it function like normal smash or is it different" are you not getting from this? im totally aware of what smash does Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/299593-a-thought-about-crowes-role/#findComment-3871684 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Coolpants Posted November 26, 2014 Share Posted November 26, 2014 I know what it does, what im curious about is, yes hes AP2 due to smash but at user ST? or is he ST8 for all his attacks, or is it just usual smash rules, e.g, he can choose to make one attack double STR etc etcThe smash rule makes ALL cc attacks ap2, and you can also elect to make ONE double strength attack instead of your usual number of attacks. Although raverrn was being a bit of a douche, it does clearly say what the smash rule is and what it does in the rulebook under smash... Edit, derp spelling Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/299593-a-thought-about-crowes-role/#findComment-3871686 Share on other sites More sharing options...
calvin the wraithlord Posted November 26, 2014 Share Posted November 26, 2014 yeah thanks for clearing that up, i get to go tell my mate i was right :P *screenshot* yeah raverrn gets a sick pleasure being a douche Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/299593-a-thought-about-crowes-role/#findComment-3871692 Share on other sites More sharing options...
raverrn Posted November 26, 2014 Share Posted November 26, 2014 yeah thanks for clearing that up, i get to go tell my mate i was right :P *screenshot* yeah raverrn gets a sick pleasure being a douche Aww, get upset without someone smarter to hold your hand? Poor thing. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/299593-a-thought-about-crowes-role/#findComment-3871906 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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