Bound or Unbound?

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

I have space wolves, and I have 2 stormtalons. I love the rules for the Talons, and enjoy using them.  Some players are antsy about unbound armies, and I prefer to take fliers instead of tanks. 

 

A few questions arise though, can my stormtalons escort my stormwolf and stormfang? Is skies of death no longer valid? and is it true that Skies of death made it possible to take stormravens and stormtalons with any space marine army (to include armies with their own books)?

 

Taking unbound allies makes my whole army unbound, but I use a force org chart out of champions of fenris, so I don't really get the typical command benefits of the combined arms detachment. So is there any benefit to not taking them?

 

The only reason I started taking them as land speeder tempests is because people hate flier spam, and I don't want to have an army that no one wants to play against (I already have that with necrons).

 

The stormtalon is such a good flier, and versatile unit that I hate letting it set unused. Can y'all help?

[CrystalSeer]

The stormtalon rules specify the escorted craft has to be from the same detachment; in unbound you do not have detachments, so you would not be able to use the escort rule. In addition, allied detachments would still not let you escort C:SW fliers.

 

You can take them easily though.

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

So I lose out on the escort craft special rule. Is it worth it to be unbound? My primary detachment is the Company of the Great Wolf detachment from Champions of Fenris. So I still get the command benefits from that even though I'm technically unbound right?

[CrystalSeer]

Yes

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

So there is really no downside for me to run unbound with my stormtalons. Aside from some foaming mouths, rage, and epileptic seizures...?

[GreyCrow]

Well, if you follow the detachment structure then you won't be unbound... But if you are unbound (aka do not respect the detachments), then you won't get the benefits. Space Wolves do not have access to the Stormtalons, right ?

 

To be honest, I much prefer to have objective secured than not having it. I have played against Unbound armies and haven't found them gamebreaking, but objective secured helped me win a lot.

Basically, running an unbound army you want to focus on killing as much stuff as possible and denying the enemy its objectives (which work great for Purge the Alien), while bound look for controlling and capturing the objectives !

[CrystalSeer]

Well, if you follow the detachment structure then you won't be unbound... But if you are unbound (aka do not respect the detachments), then you won't get the benefits. Space Wolves do not have access to the Stormtalons, right ?

 

To be honest, I much prefer to have objective secured than not having it. I have played against Unbound armies and haven't found them gamebreaking, but objective secured helped me win a lot.

Basically, running an unbound army you want to focus on killing as much stuff as possible and denying the enemy its objectives (which work great for Purge the Alien), while bound look for controlling and capturing the objectives !

 

This^^

 

It is highly dependent on the force you play; and there's not really a right or wrong way.

 

I play Black Templar; we don't really do subtle. So my lists tend to be about bringing chainsword to xenos / heretic with as much zeal as possible. This tends to involve high cost assault units and / or land raiders, which means I do not have as much of a footprint on the board. These units have two modes, maneuver and face smash. I lose objectives early game due to having few numbers which have to group together for mutual support, but once the enemy is dealt with somewhat, you can pick the objectives up in droves.

 

I play / have played against unbound on multiple occasions, and I really don't pay much attention to objective secured. Your goal should be to destroy the enemy. If you do, OS won't matter. If you don't, it won't save you.

 

I simply implore you to use unbound to embrace the game rather than spite it. If you make fluffy lists people won't mind playing against them, but no matter how you try to spin it you cheapen the game for everyone if your wolves fight alongside wave-serpents or riptides.

 

 

So there is really no downside for me to run unbound with my stormtalons. Aside from some foaming mouths, rage, and epileptic seizures...?

 

 

Nope. It's wide open.

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

Right, I don't field xenos allies with my wolves, in regular games. They're somewhat allied in a campaign I'm in, but that's only so I can play any army I want during the campaign (so I don't get bored). I just wanted to get some cheap air support since my fliers are really high points cost. That and they work well in concert with the drop pod lists I seem to be favouring lately. I want to have an Air Cavalry/Air Assault/Airborne theme, I want to put my units wherever I want, and then back them up with air support, from any corner of the board. 

 

I'm not opposed to using tanks, I just have a mobility and airpower bias, since that's my background. 

 

The way I understood the previous comments any unit in my primary detachment (company of the great wolf) has the command benefits of that detachment, while the allies do not. since the allied detachment is unbound (not following a force org chart) it gains no command benefits. Since there is one unbound detachment, the whole force is unbound, and does not have bound command benefits. Each detachment keeps its benefits for the models in it, Am I correct?

[knife&fork]

Ultimately playing with the army you like is going to be more important than objective secured.

[GreyCrow]

Yeah, your last sentence sums it up ! As long as one single model does not fit into a detachment (whether Great Wolf, Primary, Allied), then your whole force is unbound

Ultimately playing with the army you like is going to be more important than objective secured.

Definitely this !

[Lysimachus]

I'm not sure if I'm right here but if you played your Stormfang as a counts-as Raven, couldn't you take your primary from CotGW and run an Astartes Stormwing as an allied detachment, thus keeping your army Bound? Pretty sure the loadout options on the Raven are flexible enough to fit with the model?

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

I actually had been considering getting a raven, since I love the model, and using it as a counts-as stormwolf, and running the astartes storm wing. My only problem is at lower points games (2k and under), I don't want to sink a ton of points into fliers. I'd rather just use the stormtalons. But for high points games I would definitely do it, since I'll have the points to spare. Problem is, I can't really use it to deliver troops and a dreadnought, since it starts in reserve, and is not of my primary detachment. 

 

Another idea I have been toying with, is running my viking marines out of C:SM, so I can get the toys. But I lose too much of the cool stuff that makes them Space wolves, and then they become like everyone else's vanilla marines, which is a big reason I chose them in the first place. 

 

For now I don't see a ton of downsides to running Unbound, so long as the bulk of my force is benefiting from their respective detachment rules. I don't get objective secured anyway, since it's not a command benefit, and most of my army is made up of elites choices, which can't secure or contest an objective against a troops choice anyway, so I have to kill my opponent's troops. Right now I'm figuring out how to play in the realm of lethality, I need to work on disruption and friction. For now, it's enough.

 

I appreciate the help, keep it coming I'd love to hear more ideas, on how to build a solid list that I would want to play.

[Lucien Eilam]

So I lose out on the escort craft special rule. Is it worth it to be unbound? My primary detachment is the Company of the Great Wolf detachment from Champions of Fenris. So I still get the command benefits from that even though I'm technically unbound right?

Yes

 

No he doesn't. Detachment rules only apply to Battle-forged armies. If you have an Unbound army, none of the Detachment rules apply.

 

Formation special rules apply in an Unbound army, but Company of the Great Wolf is a Detachment, not a Formation.

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

 

So I lose out on the escort craft special rule. Is it worth it to be unbound? My primary detachment is the Company of the Great Wolf detachment from Champions of Fenris. So I still get the command benefits from that even though I'm technically unbound right?

Yes

 

No he doesn't. Detachment rules only apply to Battle-forged armies. If you have an Unbound army, none of the Detachment rules apply.

 

Formation special rules apply in an Unbound army, but Company of the Great Wolf is a Detachment, not a Formation.

 

 

Ok, So if I were to run the Astartes Storm Wing formation, I'd be bound then, right? In that case I can re-figure my points for higher points games to include the stormraven. Or leave them out and run my space wolves fliers. I just like having options. It really blows that I can't get cheap air support, with my space wolves. I wish that GW had given all Space Marines access to the same fliers, since they gave everyone fliers. It's still as if they're telling us that unless you play C:SM, your chapter is crap. 

[Lucien Eilam]

Ok, So if I were to run the Astartes Storm Wing formation, I'd be bound then, right?

Battle-forged, yes.

 

I wish that GW had given all Space Marines access to the same fliers, since they gave everyone fliers. It's still as if they're telling us that unless you play C:SM, your chapter is crap.

I really don't think Space Wolves warrant much sympathy in the "access to toys other Marine armies don't have" stakes.

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

 

I really don't think Space Wolves warrant much sympathy in the "access to toys other Marine armies don't have" stakes.

 

 

 

All I'm saying is I'd rather have had them give us storm talons and storm ravens instead of the stormfang/stormwolf. Don't get me wrong, they're great fliers, they just cost a ton of points, and that limits the tactical flexibility of the army. Some of the new C:SW toys are fun, but it can be limiting, a S8 AP1 Lance is only so useful, since there are very few things that are AV12+, It's nice to have a S6 AP3 pie plate launcher, but at the end of the day, a vindicator does it better for 100pts less. Logan Grimnar in his chariot is meh, because he's a close combat monster in an army that is only mediocre at close combat (when compared to dark eldar, orks, tyranids who either hit first at the same or better WS, or overwhelm you with numbers of attacks). The codex seems like it was written by committee, so it's schizophrenic. The biggest benefit to the champions of fenris is the 8 elites slots you get, letting you take all the specialist troops you could want. The re-roll the warlord trait is nice, but I so rarely remember to use my warlord trait that it almost doesn't matter, and the +1 WS the detachment gets for WG, and TWC is nice, but I want to stay out of close combat as much as possible, unless it's Tau, Guard, or Vanilla Marines/Dark Angels. The codex has a lot of strengths, but the weaknesses are glaring.  

[Kaedes Nex]

I think this has already been answered in the thread, but your best bet is to simply use a Stormwolf (the transport setup, with LCs and MMs and missiles) as a counts-as Stormraven or purchasing the actual Stormraven like you wanted to and then running the Storm Wing formation. This gives you 2 escorting Stormtalons and a Stormraven.

 

The thing is, at low points, you say you want 2 Stormtalons, but this means you only save 200 points on the Stormraven "tax". The only way to prevent becoming Unbound by taking 2 Stormtalons in your Space Wolf army requires you to ally at minimum 1 HQ (90 points), and 5 Scouts (around 70 points). That's almost the full price of the Stormraven anyway.

 

Now if you wanted to stay Battle-Forged and only take 1 Stormtalon, then I understand your dilemma. But if you want TWO Stormtalons, there is zero reason not to just use Storm Wing.

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

I did a points comparioson, between the storm wing, the way I would take it, and my fliers the way I'd take them, and they're identical in cost. I have a stormraven now, so I can run the stormwing and my Stormwolf and stormfang. In addition, My community tells me that since C:SW and C:SM are battle brothers, I can fill the stormraven with my space wolves, allowing me to take advantage of the transport capacity, and get more units on the field with one reserve roll.