Dealing with T8 spam

[GreyCrow]

The title says it all ! I'm attending a single combined arms detachment no limit at 1850pts tournament in April and I know for a fact that there are going to be Eldar lists with 3 Wraithknights in them.

 

Now, aside from the obvious fact that this is possible to do is a xeno abomination that must be eradicated, how would we go about that in a Marines army ? What are the heavy hitters that can take on them.

Because to be honest, T8 is immune to S4 weapons, with S8-S9 weapons consider them as an AV12 tank without the added benefit of crippling their effectiveness on the damage chart, S6 krak grenades still wound on 6+ and leave them their save.

Plus, the buggers are both fast, have S10 AP2 in melee and 48" range with 3 shots plasma equivalent. At 1850 points, they're going to cost around 850 points, still leaving plenty of room to include other stuff for the army.

Dealing with 1 is no problem, 2 a manageable pain but 3 starts to get overwhelming.

 

So, what are the effective ways to deal with such a spam, both at range and in melee while still keeping an all-comers list ? Because I can see how 3 Grav Centurion units in the Heavy Support can deal with Wraithknights, the problem is that it leaves the unit very vulnerable to other types of lists (Daemons, Tyranids) that I'm likely to see as well.

 

In terms of heavy hitting, I can see Grav Cents, Assault Terminators and regular Terminators being the only units able to reliably do damage to Wraithknights, as well as Librarians rolling on Biomancy and Force. Are there any other choices in mind ?

 

Now, in terms of battlefield tactics, how would you go about avoiding them, surviving against them, trapping them, removing their effectiveness, etc ?

 

Cheers !

 

 

[Teetengee]

I would suggest trying to get force as your best bet. Maybe some allied grey knights?

[GreyCrow]

Can't get allies unfortunately, it's a single Codex, single detachment :/

[Teetengee]

How are hellfire rounds these days?

[Brother Navaer Solaq]

choice that would work well by most effective (ascending order) mileage varies with luck

* grav centurions

* hammerators

I advocate this unit because if the loadout of wraight knight is shooty you can hit it wipe it out in CC and even if the hammerators get blinded by a CC wraight knight loadout it wouldn't matter because hammerators strike last anyways.

* sternguard with combi-plasma in drop pod or flanking rhino/razorback

@Teetengee

hellfire rounds did not generate enough wounds against a 3+ save in my experience (i used a 5 man squad). if you go this route then have more bodies

 

@Greycrow

As I can see from your signature (Raven guard player). I would suggest the Sternguard in rhinos or drop pod. It will allow you to use the Raven CT.

Also there is already a thread floating around here about using a jump pack equipped command squad with grav guns and all storm shields to take on MC.

[knife&fork]

The title says it all ! I'm attending a single combined arms detachment no limit at 1850pts tournament in April and I know for a fact that there are going to be Eldar lists with 3 Wraithknights in them.

 

Now, aside from the obvious fact that this is possible to do is a xeno abomination that must be eradicated, how would we go about that in a Marines army ? What are the heavy hitters that can take on them.

Because to be honest, T8 is immune to S4 weapons, with S8-S9 weapons consider them as an AV12 tank without the added benefit of crippling their effectiveness on the damage chart, S6 krak grenades still wound on 6+ and leave them their save.

Plus, the buggers are both fast, have S10 AP2 in melee and 48" range with 3 shots plasma equivalent. At 1850 points, they're going to cost around 850 points, still leaving plenty of room to include other stuff for the army.

Dealing with 1 is no problem, 2 a manageable pain but 3 starts to get overwhelming.

 

So, what are the effective ways to deal with such a spam, both at range and in melee while still keeping an all-comers list ? Because I can see how 3 Grav Centurion units in the Heavy Support can deal with Wraithknights, the problem is that it leaves the unit very vulnerable to other types of lists (Daemons, Tyranids) that I'm likely to see as well.

 

In terms of heavy hitting, I can see Grav Cents, Assault Terminators and regular Terminators being the only units able to reliably do damage to Wraithknights, as well as Librarians rolling on Biomancy and Force. Are there any other choices in mind ?

 

Now, in terms of battlefield tactics, how would you go about avoiding them, surviving against them, trapping them, removing their effectiveness, etc ?

 

Cheers !

 

Don't waste high S shots that only wound on 4+ anyway! 

 

Grav from more than one source, centurions and sternguard minimum. Centurions have bolters or missile launchers to deal with hordes and will tie up orks nicely if you get the charge. Sniper scouts are OK if you already have them in your list.

 

Sternguard have specialist ammo and grav combis, that combo will make short work of anything except heavy vehicles. 

 

Perhaps a thunder-fire cannon and some legion of the damned to deal with serpents and blobs.

[Acebaur]

I would take a full sternguard squad to combat squad in a drop pod along with grav of some kind. Centurions are beastly at this but relatively slow moving unless you put in them in a raider. You could also take grav on bikes either in a stock squad or a command squad where you can get up to 4 gravs(because you are going to take a apoc for the FnP)  between the grav and then sternguard you can watch their wounds melta away as you bury them in dice. 

 

For the Sternguard I wouldn't bother with plasma and go with melta's instead. This is because the melta's give better versatility so if you face an army without T8 spam you can blow away a vehicle or transport with one combat squad and then saturate a nearby units or the transports contents with bolter fire(and maybe a heavy flamer should you want to take one)

 

For Centurions I wouldn't bother with missiles. It simply isn't worth the points. The Grav does a better job against vehicles and heavy infantry and the hurricane bolters are better against hordes, likely getting more hits and with better AP. 

[GreyCrow]

God, I had written a very long post and it got erased... To make things short, thanks for all the suggestions and keep it up !

 

So far it appears Grav is the only weapon capable of doing reliable damage to Wraightknights, or a strong melee punch in the form of Hammernators, and perhaps the Sternguards with their SIA.

 

... That really sucks, I didn't plan to include any of these units in my army. What's really infuriating is that any other high strength heavy/special weapon in our Codex can do pretty well against relatively anything in the game, and there are many units that can take them, but effective Grav is limited to a small selection of units. It blows that in order to think about making a take all comers list you really have to bring either Centurions or Bikers, that's a cheap marketing move, just because GW made one of the cheapest OP unit that you absolutely have to deal with because it pumps out so much firepower.

 

I'll end the rant here, I promise :p

 

_______

 

Anyways, what about combinations of units that can work well together to take down Wraithknights ?

 

I originally planned to include a Vanguard Vet escort for my Captain that was geared to take on heavy infantry with 2+-3+ saves because I really thought that the more than decent amount of high strength weapons could take on any challenge. Perhaps there's something to be done against Wraithknights with that unit of Vanguard Veterans :

- Captain with Jump Pack, Thunderhammer, Stormshield

- Sergeant with Lightning Claw & Stormshield (just to give the extra AP3 attacks against heavy infantry)

- 3 Grav/BP Gunslingers

- Power Fist

 

Now, it might seem unfocused, but here's the logic. 5 Hammernators will do 15 attacks on the charge, 7,5 hits, 3,75 wounds, 2.5 unsaved wounds, and that's if they manage to all survive the Wraithknight striking first. The Vanguard Vet setup will do 0.88 unsaved wounds with the Grav pistols, the captain will deal 1,11 unsaved wounds, the power fist marine will deal 0.5 unsaved wounds and the 3 remaining marines will throw Krak Grenades dealing 0.08 wounds. That is 2.57 wounds, so roughly the equivalent of the Terminators, and assuming the Krak Grenades don't have enough reliability, they'll deal the same amount of damage on average. The good bit of that unit is that in the cases where I won't have Wraithknights to deal with it's still going to be effective (and even very effective !).

One again the Grav Pistols did roughly 30% of the damage, so they're clearly the best weapons to deal with the Wraithknight... but it's still sucky.

[Kilofix]

Militarum Tempestus.

 

Use the Sniper Orders.

 

Wound on 4+, no armor saves.

[shandwen]

Militarum Tempestus.

 

Use the Sniper Orders.

 

Wound on 4+, no armor saves.

The tempestus have good orders, but rely on squishy officers and actually passing the test to give an order while at close range. To make the matter worse the hotshots range is pathetic, and their lack of real unit choices cripple them.

I still love them though.

[Acebaur]

God, I had written a very long post and it got erased... To make things short, thanks for all the suggestions and keep it up !

So far it appears Grav is the only weapon capable of doing reliable damage to Wraightknights, or a strong melee punch in the form of Hammernators, and perhaps the Sternguards with their SIA.

... That really sucks, I didn't plan to include any of these units in my army. What's really infuriating is that any other high strength heavy/special weapon in our Codex can do pretty well against relatively anything in the game, and there are many units that can take them, but effective Grav is limited to a small selection of units. It blows that in order to think about making a take all comers list you really have to bring either Centurions or Bikers, that's a cheap marketing move, just because GW made one of the cheapest OP unit that you absolutely have to deal with because it pumps out so much firepower.

I'll end the rant here, I promise

_______

Anyways, what about combinations of units that can work well together to take down Wraithknights ?

I originally planned to include a Vanguard Vet escort for my Captain that was geared to take on heavy infantry with 2+-3+ saves because I really thought that the more than decent amount of high strength weapons could take on any challenge. Perhaps there's something to be done against Wraithknights with that unit of Vanguard Veterans :

- Captain with Jump Pack, Thunderhammer, Stormshield

- Sergeant with Lightning Claw & Stormshield (just to give the extra AP3 attacks against heavy infantry)

- 3 Grav/BP Gunslingers

- Power Fist

Now, it might seem unfocused, but here's the logic. 5 Hammernators will do 15 attacks on the charge, 7,5 hits, 3,75 wounds, 2.5 unsaved wounds, and that's if they manage to all survive the Wraithknight striking first. The Vanguard Vet setup will do 0.88 unsaved wounds with the Grav pistols, the captain will deal 1,11 unsaved wounds, the power fist marine will deal 0.5 unsaved wounds and the 3 remaining marines will throw Krak Grenades dealing 0.08 wounds. That is 2.57 wounds, so roughly the equivalent of the Terminators, and assuming the Krak Grenades don't have enough reliability, they'll deal the same amount of damage on average. The good bit of that unit is that in the cases where I won't have Wraithknights to deal with it's still going to be effective (and even very effective !).

One again the Grav Pistols did roughly 30% of the damage, so they're clearly the best weapons to deal with the Wraithknight... but it's still sucky.

Sadly, when your opponent spams a busted ass unit then you need to spam your own busted ass unit in order to win. Grav and Sternguard are going to be your killers here. The Sternguard will knock an average of 3.7 wounds a turn off a WK while the grav Cents (assuming the WK doesn't have the inv shield) will do 8.8 wounds with 4 guys, which you can split fire. If you roll decent and split fire, that's 2 dead WK's in one turn.

I don't want to rain on your vanguard TDA setup but strictly competitively speaking you shouldn't worry about getting a confetti win. What I mean by that is don't try to over think things and try to get a crazy combo to hit just right(when it does hit, Boom! Confetti!!! :lol:) Instead, your best bet is to just kill them as efficiently and quickly as possible. Because the units that can kill them will be priority #1 for your opponent.

[GreyCrow]

Oh, I completely agree with you Acebaur : the simpler the better It's just that I frigging hate the Centurions, both for the looks and their price tag, they don't fit my Chapter nor do they fit well in my army (including 3 of them will mean I'll need to completely redesign the list because otherwise I'll be short on points). I'm not particularly enthused about the Sternguards either (btw, I'm not getting your 3.7 wounds on average with the Sternguards ? what loadout did you simulate that with ?) because I've already got more than decent anti-infantry and I'm not really fan of the one use only weapons (even though they have poisoned which could be considered ). I'll do the math tomorrow !

I was just trying to find other suitable alternatives to dealing with WKs by mixing grav and PF/TH. Another iteration of the Vanguard Veteran squad that averages 4 wounds on the charge against the Wraithknights is :

- Captain : TH/LC/Jump Pack (I've got it modelled that way already, so... )

- 3 Grav Pistols

- 2 Power Fists

- 1 Thunderhammer

The tricky bit is going to get them in combat, probably via Stormraven deployment (why did I have to drop the Hurricane Bolters ), or even sneaking in out of line of sight until it's time to come in and finish of the Wraithknights.

It's probably not the surest way of dealing with a triple Wraithknight spam, but I'm starting to think that there isn't really any. Even Grav Cents or Sternguards might have him throw cover saves.

Might just go with Assault Termies or Regular Terminators then... Or even worse, Centurions *shivers*

[Kaedes Nex]

Psykers that can cast toughness lowering maledictions or force leadership tests/maledictions/Shriek. Assassins also have good options for bypassing high T, and Knights are good too. And while not what I would call the most reliable, there's always triple Vindicators.

[Jolemai]

Scouts with Sniper Rifles

Librarian on a Bike with a Force Weapon of your choice (Biomancy)

[Tangamarine]

I can't recommend highly enough the need for cover ignoring/ reducing wargear and weaponary. Apple 4+ cover saves combined with the stealth ruins/eldar shenanigans leave the wraithknights oftern getting a 3+ cover save or even sometimes a 2+ by just having a toe in a ruin. To that regard I would recommend tiggy if you end up running the centurions (I in fact am using that now) to get ignore cover/prescience/misfortune to give you better odds (also an attached chaptermaster for twin linked orbitals that ignore cover) also as meantioned earlier, biomancy and telepathy are also good options.

 

If your HQ units are running little to no ranged weaponry, also take an auspex with that cover reduction when they get close,

[GreyCrow]

Psykers that can cast toughness lowering maledictions or force leadership tests/maledictions/Shriek. Assassins also have good options for bypassing high T, and Knights are good too. And while not what I would call the most reliable, there's always triple Vindicators.

 

The Librarian point is interesting, I planned to play a ML2 with Biomancy in my original list, but I really wonder if it's a reliable method. From what I've heard, the guys running the triple Wraithknights lists are likely to have a seer council as well, so I'm most likely going to get drowned under lots of deny dices. Unfortunately I can only have access to Codex: Marines for that tournament, so all the other suggestions are unavailable :/

 

Guess that leaves with the Grav Centurions, unless you guys have other suggestions ?

[UnkyHamHam]

One thought I had on the matter was a Legion of the Damned Squad.  I am a huge fan of this hyper versatile set up...

 

10 Legionaires (less if need points), Power Fist, Combi-Grav, Plasma Gun, Multi-Melta. 310pts

 

This squad never fails me.  It's tricked out to handle any situation in a take all comers list.  Against a Wraithknight, I would deep strike right in front of it. Shoot grav, plas, MM, and throw a krak (lol).  Then he would have to maneuver around or charge your 3+ invuln speed bump.  You can hopefully wear him down with Power Fist and kraks.  Granted this will only work on one WraithKnight, so your list will have to handle the others, but I just thought I'd contribute :)

[markham82]

Hello brother

 

From How you like to play and build your lists I don't think this will be of much use, but it might give you an idea on something similar that could work for you.

 

A command squad in a pod with gravguns, a few stormshields and an apothecary. dropped behind his advance should put some hurt on him and force him to turn something around. With the stormshields and apothecary they might even survive to shoot again. the big problem here is that they almost cost as much as a centurion squad

[Fatespinner]

I don't play loyalists, but my answer to Wraithknights with Chaos has always been Instant Death weapons, whether artifacts or Force weapons.  Do you have any way to get some decent ID weapons on the field and a reliable means of putting them on target?

[GreyCrow]

As Loyalists, the only Instant Death we can get is Force from a Librarian (I think I'm correct, I don't recall any other ID weapons in the Codex), which unfortunately won't be of much use because if the Eldars are likely to have a Seerstar on jetbikes as well. That said, I want my ML2 in the force for any other cases, and there's an off chance I could get Force+Iron Arm in. A small chance but a chance still !

That said, although there is a spam of T8, the list isn't particularly impressive. The 3 Wraithknights + the Seerstar roughly come at 1500 points, leaving only 350 points for the Troops, with a total of 8 units tops on the table if they go with Wave Serpents.

Also, running simulations with the current army showed that Grav Spam wasn't really needed in the end, I guess I got scared way too high. With a healthy abundance of S8 weapons, a decent amount of Grav (at least 5 shots per turn), and high strength melee (TH, PF, in decent amount roughly 8 attacks on the charge), you can reliably down one per turn (with the little extra trick of an Auspex on a character, hehe).

A few grav weapons are needed though, that much the simulation has taught me, but I guess that's going to be a given in the current meta if you want to have a take all comers list !

However, it actually forced me to think outside the box, and I'm going to experiment with a new pattern of Land Speeders (Multi-Melta/Typhoon Missile Launchers) in squadrons of 2. They pump out 6 S8 shots at 24" or for >25", they are a bang for their buck !

[Axagoras]

smashkill with digital weapons :D