Prot Posted November 28, 2014 Share Posted November 28, 2014 I need help. (not that kind of help, the medication takes care of that.) I'm definitely going DA tonight for my game.... but as much as I love my Az-zeke bomb list, I want to try Belial. So I'm putting a list together and trying to do some stuff I haven't done before to keep things fresh in the Deathwing bedroom. So what do I mean by that? - Deathwing Knights in a Landraider. Typically I don't like LR's for their points vs certain opponents, but I'm giving it a shot. Vanilla LR, with Dozer Blade, and XA. This is new for me and rings it at a whoopin' 530pts. - Greenwing. I don't like to mix my wings without Azrael. So this is bordering on getting CUT from the list, but I'm thinking Cheapo Dev squad with 2 Lascannons on my Bastion. Is this stupid? It probably comes in at 185, gives Devs something to do, adds some anti air, holds deep field objectives (potentially) and is somewhat 'cheap'. (I use this in many of my Az-Zeke bomb lists) - Greenwing 2: I learned some tricks with my Ultra armies: 10 green dudes, combat squaded, on with Missile launcher hangs back. 5 others go in a Las/Plas Razorback with a flamer. 235 points (Kind of pricey???) - FInally another element I haven't tried but fantasized so many times about: Deathwing Command squad. I need help here. I have no idea what to do to keep it cheap and effective. Apothecary? Banner? Special Weapons? I have no idea. The only thing I'm sure of is I want the Champion because he's the bee's knees for what... 5 pts? I am having trouble coming up with the points because of that darn landraider, so I'd appreciate some suggestions on the Command Squad. Actually any comments on the above 'new' features for me would help. Greenwing feels a little uncomfortable in this build for me. I'd appreciate it, thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cactus Posted November 28, 2014 Share Posted November 28, 2014 Sacred Standard of Fortitude. That's a very good buff for both the command squad and nearby power armoured units. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prot Posted November 28, 2014 Author Share Posted November 28, 2014 Is this a better option than just an apothecary considering the points difference? ++EDIT++ Okay at 1850 I can fit in the Standard of Fortitude but the Landraider goes leaving the Deathwing Knights to simply deep strike... probably on top of the Black Knights (Teleport Homer). Smmmaaaaalll list though. Considering how many Orks/Nids I have to face, I think on one hand the Fortitude banner is great for survivability but I'd love to get my numbers up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother-Sergeant Bohemond Posted November 28, 2014 Share Posted November 28, 2014 I often run Devs with my Deathwing and find them useful time and again. If you want to use the command squad, I would recommend the Standard of Fortitude. I know its pricey, but it is very good at keeping people alive. Also flamers against Nids/Orks - twin-linked when you deepstrike ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prot Posted November 28, 2014 Author Share Posted November 28, 2014 Originally I had a 5 man dev squad in this list with 2 lascannons sitting on a Bastion for AA since 3 of the Devs have nothing to do, this gave them more purpose and I actually like the Bastion because it's inaccessible and I don't have to babysit it with Deathwing/Ravenwing. But I had to pull it from the list. :( Maybe I'll try to work it back in. Right now I have the command Deathwing squad sitting at 5 dudes, Fortitude Banner, Hvy Flamer, 2 Shield/Hammer dudes, and a Champion: 330. (The Landraider had to come out of the list. Still toying with a Nephilim for covering my lack of numbers with the Avenger Bolter and I've always liked it with Strafing Run.) Back to the drawing board.. thanks for the advice. Edit btw who gets the banner typically? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solrac Posted November 28, 2014 Share Posted November 28, 2014 What load out are out running on Belial? Against Nids/Orks I would stick with SoS just to get the extra Storm Bolter shots as most things wont have a save of 2+. If you are facing Nids/Orks and fear of being outnumbered in combat definitely fit in the Banner of Fortitude. Although a Champion is bang for your buck you have to think about the lack of Storm Bolters in your command squad. I would either drop a TH/SS or the Champ (my preference would be the Champ as he won't be tanking AP2 hits). I never liked the Apothecary simply because I would rather squeeze extra points for the banner instead. In the 1000pts games where I've used the Banner (16 terminators in that list) it has saved 5 terminators per game on average. That is huge. Also it only takes 2 to 3 successful FNP rolls for it to make it's points back. Belial running with them or the Knights? Either way you would want the Command Squad as a fire support for the Knights and staying close to them to provide FNP as it would make them almost un-killable combined with Wall of Shields. I would drop in the command squad with Belial next to the Knights and take advantage of Belial's non scatter and burn some Xenos. You then have the option to peel Belial away and join the Knights if you want him wrecking face in CC. Maybe also try a pair of Vindicators with a Techmarine on bike with a PFG trailing if you can't fit the bastion back in? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prot Posted November 28, 2014 Author Share Posted November 28, 2014 Actually this is the list I was going to go with: http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/299797-prots-no-time-for-thinking-belial-multiwing-list-1850/ It might be too late though. I gotta get my stuff together. I have an Ultra list on standby that I've been using. Or I can go back to old trusty Az-zeke bomb. What load out are out running on Belial? Against Nids/Orks I would stick with SoS just to get the extra Storm Bolter shots as most things wont have a save of 2+. If you are facing Nids/Orks and fear of being outnumbered in combat definitely fit in the Banner of Fortitude. Although a Champion is bang for your buck you have to think about the lack of Storm Bolters in your command squad. I would either drop a TH/SS or the Champ (my preference would be the Champ as he won't be tanking AP2 hits). I never liked the Apothecary simply because I would rather squeeze extra points for the banner instead. In the 1000pts games where I've used the Banner (16 terminators in that list) it has saved 5 terminators per game on average. That is huge. Also it only takes 2 to 3 successful FNP rolls for it to make it's points back. Belial running with them or the Knights? Either way you would want the Command Squad as a fire support for the Knights and staying close to them to provide FNP as it would make them almost un-killable combined with Wall of Shields. I would drop in the command squad with Belial next to the Knights and take advantage of Belial's non scatter and burn some Xenos. You then have the option to peel Belial away and join the Knights if you want him wrecking face in CC. Maybe also try a pair of Vindicators with a Techmarine on bike with a PFG trailing if you can't fit the bastion back in? - Belial is with SoS, and bolter. - Good thinking on taking off a TH/Shield for more dakka - Belial was going to stick with command squad for precision Deep Strike and hit a target with the squad's heavy flamer. He could then leave and join the DW Kinghts? - Pair of Vindicators? Actually I only own one... could proxy the second but that's a lot of rejigging... would you really play two AP2 templates in a deep striking army? I have visions of Azrael scolding me for killing off his first company with my scatter luck. :) - Which Command squad member typically gets the banner? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solrac Posted November 29, 2014 Share Posted November 29, 2014 Actually this is the list I was going to go with: http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/299797-prots-no-time-for-thinking-belial-multiwing-list-1850/ It might be too late though. I gotta get my stuff together. I have an Ultra list on standby that I've been using. Or I can go back to old trusty Az-zeke bomb. - Belial is with SoS, and bolter. - Good thinking on taking off a TH/Shield for more dakka - Belial was going to stick with command squad for precision Deep Strike and hit a target with the squad's heavy flamer. He could then leave and join the DW Kinghts? - Pair of Vindicators? Actually I only own one... could proxy the second but that's a lot of rejigging... would you really play two AP2 templates in a deep striking army? I have visions of Azrael scolding me for killing off his first company with my scatter luck. - Which Command squad member typically gets the banner? Yeah only just noticed you posted the list after I replied to this. So yes the idea is if the DWK are close, Belial drops wit the command squad so you can get max coverage with the Heavy Flamer with his no scatter rule. He then leaves and joins the Knights for his +1 Toughness with the Knights Wall of shields then he can FNP anything that isn't S10. Normally I give my banner to just a normal guy but I suppose if you wanted to make him harder to kill you could make him one of your TH/SS guys (I wouldn't recommend him for tanking shots though :P). With the Vindis, they could hunt down the opposite flank than that of your other troops so as to avoid scatter shenanigans. I do like your list, need to get me some Black Knights. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solrac Posted November 29, 2014 Share Posted November 29, 2014 Let us know how you went Prot! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SvenONE Posted November 29, 2014 Share Posted November 29, 2014 I'm still not entirely sold on Belial if you're going to solely be bringing a command squad. You bring him to make your DWTs scoring, but that ultimately eats into your budget for a command squad. I would, unless you're dead set on Belial, try one of the following loadouts: DW Int Chaplain+MoR or DW Company Master + MoR/SS you can give him digital weapons if you'd like or spring for a Monster Slayer (not really worth it) Both options are slightly cheaper and all options have virtually the same profile save that the CM can get a 3++ and the Chaplain gives Hatred, which to me is worth more than what Belial may bring in certain situations. As for the DWCS, before you go spending more on them I'd say look at what your list needs. I've made attempts at using terminators on foot behind a gunline and using the Devastation Standard, it was ok but costly. My problem with the DWCS and a fort banner in a GW list is that it depends what else is on the table for you. Given how expensive that loadout is you need to put something else equally if not more threatening on the table so that your opponent doesn't get basically a no-brainer of who to shoot at. I like the company standard with the command squad, the + attack is nice when you give them thunder hammers, even 1 terminator with LCs in that squad is a nice payoff. At the end of the day I think you always need to put the DWCS in a Landraider if it's bringing a standard, which is probably the reason you're ultimately bringing it anyway over a regular run of the mill DWT squad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aura_enchanted Posted November 29, 2014 Share Posted November 29, 2014 heres my two cents on mixed wings and DW command squads its been my experience that multi-wing armies that are free of azzy need to build their foundation on good greenwing vs dw or rw. the rw and DW suffer from what i feel is a lack of foundation, neither of these "wings" has the necessary tools to build somethings on top of them, like building a sandwich on an incredibly small piece of bread before putting all your toppings on before the top bread slice. units start to either weigh them down and because they lack these important pieces the sandwich topples over while your making it, another problem that can occur especially with the deathwing is that it takes up so much of the army's total points value that your left with these greenwing units just tacked on to fill points. our codex relies on synergy and weighing units down and tacking things on to achieve your goal is not making everyone have a role and fill a spot in the grand design. so you do what you want but i don't think it is possible to sink thousands of points into deathwing and then hastily plop in greenwing and call the force thought out. now for the DWCS the command squad has a few unique features in it, 1 it has no sergeant that means that this is the only way to get a proper thundernator squad, this squad i feel needs to be in peoples faces breaking their toys live and in concert with other pieces of your army, simply having them as a deathstar simply isn't viable. the champion as a result i feel is an auto-take, he can take challenges and clean out nasty toys like power klaws and lightning claws out from an enemy's ranks, a heavy weapon would be useful, id probably pick between the flamer or the assault cannon that's up to you. the standard of fortitude is really the only option you should be taking on the dwcs but if you cant find the points the runner up is the DW banner, the apothecary you can skip, from here add some hammers n shields, lc's maybe a CF ifn you can spare the points and use them in harmony with another CC unit to tank and clear with the dwcs as a big ugly club the smash a unit another squad is holding in place. the dwcs has some issues though, i feel they need to be ten strong, that would make them insanely more useful then they are now, they suffer from ap2 problems all terminators do, they drop in,deploy, whatever and then get smacked by a plasma cannon and suddenly their squad in widdled down to just one guy, its not effective at just 5 and unlike other units of terminators where 5 men is a strength this just makes them a gunfire magnet of a colossal size because their so few at such a high points cost. hope you enjoyed my opinion https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t6WOpTXCwAY Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prot Posted November 29, 2014 Author Share Posted November 29, 2014 Guys, First off thanks for the ideas. I took it all into consideration but at the end of the day the list I was making felt too helter skelter and far from what I'm comfortable with (out of all the DA codex, I am probably least comfortable with Deathwing). So I ended up taking an Ultramarines list I was tweaking over the last several weeks in different games. So even though it turned out to be an Ultra army I went with, I did post the batrep just in case you're curious: http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/299828-prots-ultra-rep-ultramarines-vs-tyranids-1850-some-pics/ I am torn. I enjoy the play of both of these armies quite a bit. It's amazing how different they are.. utterly and completely. Snakechisler knows what I'm talking about.... they can compliment each other but I never play Allies. I simply prefer to play 'a' codex. I have some friends talking me into dropping the insanity of going full boar with the Ultra's (right now I'm proxying a good number of models) and staying with the Dark Angels since I have a fair amount painted, and really if I bought that expansion kit, I could pretty much almost play any build I want without very little if any proxying. Other friends tell me they've watched me play these guys a lot and think I get bored easily of the army. lol (I admit that was certainly true of my Ravenwing). The reality is I can't collect/play/paint both... finances and my job won't allow for it. BUT that being said I thoroughly enjoy both and am finding the decision difficult. Like I said, I learned that the grass is not greener on the Codex Astartes side of the fence, but it does taste different! Thanks for the advice. I just couldn't get it together in time! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Interrogator Stobz Posted November 30, 2014 Share Posted November 30, 2014 Do you add FW units to your lists? Have you considered the idea of adding WW Deathstorm pods for crowd control, failing that adding actual WWs? Next time, funds and time permitting ofc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SvenONE Posted November 30, 2014 Share Posted November 30, 2014 I won't tell Zeke you love Tiggy so much! The Chaplains on the other hand may not be so forgiving!! The power of the thunderfire cannon! Crucial against thrope bearing nid lists. Stormtalon may not have done much, but it did occupy the tyrant's shooting, which is better than it unloading on your bodies on the ground. I've always found the stormtalons to be a little better against ground targets anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prot Posted November 30, 2014 Author Share Posted November 30, 2014 Very true. I like it for going after ground targets, and with two it just opens up a nice reinforcement that I could not really replicate at the same price for Dark Angels. Tigurius is unfortunately quite a bit more useful than Zeke. He stands alone pretty strongly. Hold on, I think some DA chaplains are at my door... I'll be right baaa..... !!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prot Posted December 3, 2014 Author Share Posted December 3, 2014 Okay I'm bumping this for two reasons: 1. I have a few days to get your help so I can make a solid list this time. 2. I still haven't heard (unless I missed it) but where do I put the banner? Can it go on anyone? I wanted to ask this because I also forgot where I put my Ravenwing banner and I can't recall if there's any advantage to giving the banner to a specific terminator/biker? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raztalin Posted December 3, 2014 Share Posted December 3, 2014 Personally I'd put the banner on a th/SS dude...better protection from being sniped etc. maybe not run him out in front though to tank shots. :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solrac Posted December 3, 2014 Share Posted December 3, 2014 Personally I'd put the banner on a th/SS dude...better protection from being sniped etc. maybe not run him out in front though to tank shots. :-) The banner can go on anyone (except the Champion) but yes TH/SS is good protection on him if you can spare the points. Just don't have him at the front ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prot Posted December 4, 2014 Author Share Posted December 4, 2014 Okay, I'm putting the models together tonight! (For the command squad) You bring up a good point I mention in the army list selection... if anyone else wants to comment it's here: http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/299797-prots-no-time-for-thinking-belial-multiwing-list-1850/ 2 Lists are posted for your perusal. I'm just being honest if I can't get a moderately comfy feeling about this, I'll probably just default to my Az-Zeke bomb list. I am going to do the squad up tonight, and I probably won't glue the banner on the Hammer/Shield command squad dude because I should probably paint it separately but maybe I'll pin it on temporarily. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cactus Posted December 4, 2014 Share Posted December 4, 2014 I suggest magnetising the arms of the standard bearer. Although hammer and shield is currently the stand-out choice, future-proofing is good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prot Posted December 4, 2014 Author Share Posted December 4, 2014 Thanks for this idea... no idea why I didn't think of it myself. I have two games scheduled this week hopefully going to get the command squad done in time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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