What do you prefer to infer?

[Loesh]

Hello everyone! I'm once again running out of creative juices, as Early Access for Eternal Crusade draws near, i'm constantly trying to find new ideas for my Slaaneshi Strike force. So today I wanted to do something...special, when we typically talk about lore we like to bring up factoids from books, codices, or other things and we often go around arguing about them for hours on end.....sometimes with futility because Warhammer has a very loose canon to it. This time I want to hear: Do you have a pet theory that you like, but have no solid proof for? Something that might not even be mentioned by characters anywhere, but given from what you see, that's how you'd like to see it work.

 

I'll go first: I liked the idea that most Slaaneshi Sorcerers in the Emperors Children are more warrior like then their contemporaries in other Warbands and legions, why?: Because while Fulgrim was supportive of psychic powers, he didn't allow Librarians into his legions and therefore Chaos Sorcerers didn't appear clear until the Siege of Terra in the Emperors Children, this tells me that most Slaaneshi Chaos Sorcerers in their ranks were Palatine Blades, Ordinary Assault Marines, Tacticals, Havocs, and so forth who had developed a taste for magic on their way to Terra and thus became Sorcerers but while a bit poorer at magic they probably have quite a few skills as ordinary fighters.

[Carrack]

One thing I like to infer about Chaos Marines is that they routinely conquer lands. Not just Hellworlds in the Eye or Maelstrom, but genuine Imperial or even Xenos worlds. Much of the lore points to piratical raids that achieve their objectives than flee to the warp storms where they can't be followed. I'm not denying that this frequently happens,particularly with the smaller down on their luck warbands like 10th of the VIII, but I see some problems with it.

 

 

First, Chaos Space Marines are a threat to the Imperium, a major threat, if not the greatest threat. Codexes and novels support this. Raiders don't amount to this level of threat. Not until they start conquering or destroying. In different periods of medieval history you had Huns and Norse raiders. Their raids were locally devastating, but did not pose a threat to Rome of the Frankish Empire for a long while. They were tolerated or bought off. However once they started conquering lands they became much more serious of a threat. Likewise, the pirates of the Caribbean certainly hindered the Spanish Economy, but never threatened the Spanish Crown. The Imperium of Man may loose more resources to incompetency in the Administratum then in Chaos raids.

 

Secondly there are clear ways to exploit the Imperium's general plan of planetary defense. This plan goes like this. A planet gets invaded the PDF try to repel the attackers. If this fails they appeal to sub sector for assistance. If this also fails they go to the sector, than if need be the segmentum. I have read accounts of assistance taking as much as 500 years to reach the besieged planet. Some of this is bureaucracy, some of it the vagaries of warp travel, or warp storms. All of which can be manipulated with well placed cults or powerful warp craft. But if Chaos holds a planet for 500 years, there maybe nothing left that the Imperium is willing to use, or it maybe to tough a nut for the gathered forces to crack.

 

Now obviously, some worlds are going to be immediately contested, like Armageddon or Cadia, but there are still countless worlds that are ripe for the taking and then exploiting to further the cause of Chaos.

[Tenebris]

Indeed Carrack and this statement is supported by many fonts. An example, in "A Masters' biding", a short story, it is written that a Word Bearers host completely and totally subjected an imperial world to their rule. The Word Bearers went so far that almost every single citizen was able to sing the litanies of Lorgar in perfect pitch and pronunciation, ofc. on penalty of death... A world which was later I think reclaimed by the Imperial Fists but the damage was done and was irreversible.

 

While I do not see them crusading as in the legion times, the Chaos Space Marines still conquer worlds in veritable campaigns of conquer and subjugation. What they do to the worlds they conquer is another thing though.

 

Said that my personal theory is unsurprisingly about the Chaos Sorcerers themselves, all of them. In my minds eye I see them more as modern "mages" "wizards" and "sorcerers" rather than this "jedi-type" characters who are masters of a mind discipline. My claim is that Sorcery bends reality in a much more tangible way than a psychic power ever could and I very well see them collecting spell tomes of some form like a "fantasy" wizard would do. This I assume that they invoke powers with intricate rituals and formulae, use magic ingredients, practice alchemy and other esoteric pursuits and act very much like a mage would do rather than a psionic. 

[Carrack]

I agree with your view on Sorcery vs psychic powers as well. There are examples of non psykers conducting warp rituals. In Eisenhorn the non psyker Aemos summons a daemonhost with knowledge gained from a "spell book". It also more believably shows how a sorcerer can grow in power as opposed to a psyker who at times are said to have been born with greater or lesser power, yet other times are able to gain power as they practice. Ahriman frequently raids libraries and other collections of mystical knowledge. This is in part to gain more power.

 

I also thinks it makes a better plot device if the uncovering of some esoteric knowledge will lead to greater power. It provides motivation and can be used as objectives in battles or even campaigns. Another example would be the commonly used fantasy hook of the novice attempting something he has no business trying, it seems like several powerful daemons enter into reality this way in the lore.

[Loesh]

A good theory I think, how I prefer to view it: I sort of view the difference between Chaos Sorcerer and Psyker the difference between a DnD Wizard and...ironically enough...a Sorcerer, the former is able to use more powerful spells and artifacts but requires preparation, while the latter is weaker but the spells are 'innate' as it were.

[Volt]

The Primarchs were/are greater daemons. All of them.

[Loesh]

The Primarchs were/are greater daemons. All of them.

 

I can see it actually, when Ferrus Manus died the end result was...even without the Sapphire King....interesting, it really lended credence to the idea that immense amounts of Chaos energy were involved in their creation, and i'd wonder what the other most-likely-dead-Primarchs looked like in the final moments and if it was nearly so dramatic.

[Scribe]

Chaos, or simply Warp, or even more simply, Soul energy.

 

Just finishing Talon of Horus and its trying to change a number of my assumed truths. :p

[the jeske]

Psykers can use artefacts of power as focus too. Things like the spear of russ or warp objects[GK use those all the time]. The difference is more in the how the power used. Psykers are all about self control, limitation etc. Sorc are all about opening yourself to the warp[well parts of it, an unprotected sorc that tries to open himself to the warp gets eaten same way a psyker would]. When a psyker uses imperial tarot to divine its something a sorc would do. There is also the question of exploring new ways. Librarians or psykers are very set in their ways. A DA and BA librarian will have diffent cultures how to do stuff [how to focus, how to draw on the power of the warp etc] and set in their ways, in fact unless they are on a DW team with other librarians[super rare] they won't even know stuff could be done differently. Chaos sorc explore new ways all the time, they use proxy[thrall sorc for example] to try new rituals, they change objects of focus or how stuff is cast.

 

Also lets not forget that the imperium doesn't put worth to the same things as chaos does. A feral world with little useful resources may just not get "saved" as it is not important enough. But for chaos it can be full of recruits/ritual material. One destroy an agri world not, because it is good loot, but because each person kill can be dedicted to the gods.

[Tenebris]

I think that a Sorcerer is the truest of the two when comes to power. The psykers are formidable but cannot be compared to one who has access to the full power of the Warp, the will and most important than all, the freedom, to research everything his heart wishes. Sure, at the end of the day the Sorcerer falls to his insane thirst for knowledge and power, is consumed by his research and his soul damned by the countless living and dead sacrifices he has made in trade for his unholy power, but the power is tangible, capable to shatter reality and create wonders, miracles and tragedies alike.

 

On the note of the EC librarians I do not see them as any more martial than the others, especially in a legion of deviants. Before the HH there were some librarians but I presume that in proper EC way they were rigid, utterly disciplined and uninspiring psykers, prevented to innovate or to learn more, a simple cog in the legion organism. But post Heresy they are deviants all, most probably insane and consumed by their lusts, and knowledge is a lust too. In fact I see them even more consumed by their desires than a Thousand Sons Sorcerer ever could be, first because it is the nature of Slaanesh to crave always more, to provide always more, but also because they willingly disposed of their legion's iron discipline post Istvaan and in fact never had the necessary background to nurture and expand their psychic powers, thus they are insanely driven to explore and experience everything.

 

On the note of conquest. We still speak of the legions of old, of legion warbands. Most of this warriors know only conquest and constant war, it is the fuel of their beings despite their creed or religion. A CSM warband, especially one of the legions of old is driven to conquest provided that they have the means to achieve it. In general terms the warbands are not big organizations, maybe a hundred, two hundred marines tops because more requires massive resources, thus they are mostly relegated to raids and precision strikes upon the enemy.

 

But a coalition of warbands or a faction like the Black Legion or the Word Bearers who have the resources and the manpower, well this is another pair of ceramite boots we are in, and this two factions conquer on a daily basis. I especially see the Word Bearers as the empire building equivalent legion of Chaos and their conquest is said in fiction to be complete and absolute and we have fonts to attest to that. In the case of the Black Legion well I assume that their habit of dropping in, killing everyone and then leaving scraps to those who with to administrate their conquests it still very much in vogue. 

 

I think that in terms of "empire building" no Chaos legion can compare to the Word Bearers. They take the time to install a government and to provide a military backbone (be it astartes, traitor guard or cultists) to the worlds they conquer, and in proper WB fashion they also completely rework the religious institutions on a world they have conquered. In short the XVIIth legion considers the work post battle more important than the battle or the conquest itself. 

[Sheesh Mode]

The 'soul' that the Imperium believes is contained within each individual is actually a part of the warp, from the warp, and of the warp. In fact you could say that it is the warp.

[Scribe]

I dont think its from the warp, thats just where it goes after. Thats the part the gods need. If it was from the Warp initially, then Chaos wouldnt need mortals.

[Loesh]

I think that a Sorcerer is the truest of the two when comes to power. The psykers are formidable but cannot be compared to one who has access to the full power of the Warp, the will and most important than all, the freedom, to research everything his heart wishes. Sure, at the end of the day the Sorcerer falls to his insane thirst for knowledge and power, is consumed by his research and his soul damned by the countless living and dead sacrifices he has made in trade for his unholy power, but the power is tangible, capable to shatter reality and create wonders, miracles and tragedies alike.

 

On the note of the EC librarians I do not see them as any more martial than the others, especially in a legion of deviants. Before the HH there were some librarians but I presume that in proper EC way they were rigid, utterly disciplined and uninspiring psykers, prevented to innovate or to learn more, a simple cog in the legion organism. But post Heresy they are deviants all, most probably insane and consumed by their lusts, and knowledge is a lust too. In fact I see them even more consumed by their desires than a Thousand Sons Sorcerer ever could be, first because it is the nature of Slaanesh to crave always more, to provide always more, but also because they willingly disposed of their legion's iron discipline post Istvaan and in fact never had the necessary background to nurture and expand their psychic powers, thus they are insanely driven to explore and experience everything.

 

On the note of conquest. We still speak of the legions of old, of legion warbands. Most of this warriors know only conquest and constant war, it is the fuel of their beings despite their creed or religion. A CSM warband, especially one of the legions of old is driven to conquest provided that they have the means to achieve it. In general terms the warbands are not big organizations, maybe a hundred, two hundred marines tops because more requires massive resources, thus they are mostly relegated to raids and precision strikes upon the enemy.

 

But a coalition of warbands or a faction like the Black Legion or the Word Bearers who have the resources and the manpower, well this is another pair of ceramite boots we are in, and this two factions conquer on a daily basis. I especially see the Word Bearers as the empire building equivalent legion of Chaos and their conquest is said in fiction to be complete and absolute and we have fonts to attest to that. In the case of the Black Legion well I assume that their habit of dropping in, killing everyone and then leaving scraps to those who with to administrate their conquests it still very much in vogue. 

 

I think that in terms of "empire building" no Chaos legion can compare to the Word Bearers. They take the time to install a government and to provide a military backbone (be it astartes, traitor guard or cultists) to the worlds they conquer, and in proper WB fashion they also completely rework the religious institutions on a world they have conquered. In short the XVIIth legion considers the work post battle more important than the battle or the conquest itself. 

 

Well the thing is Tenebris is that the Emperors Children didn't *have* any Librarians, Fulgrim supported letting Psykers into the Legions, but not his legion because he feared they might have some imperfection. Therefore, their Sorcerers had to come from sources that weren't Librarians by the time Terra rolled around. The Emperors Children might of changed a lot from who they were, but they haven't forgotten any of their training, I would assume that a Chaos Sorcerer who used to be a Assault Marine might have a much different skillset from one who used to be a Librarian.

[Carrack]

I prefer to infer that the mortal support elements for a Chaos Marine Warband would vary greatly, but typically outnumber the actual Astartes by about 10 to 1. Not counting naval personnel.

 

First though, I think a Warband could go for extended periods of time without any supporting team at all. The lore says they need little nourishment, and elite warriors would certainly be capable of foraging in many circumstances to supplement their ration paste. Likewise the care of weapons and armor would typically be performed by the individual. I can't see a Veteran of the Long War having an abundance of trust in others maintaining the things that have kept him alive. Similarly, Astartes assigned as vehicle crews should be capable of most repairs that don't require a full on shop or hanger. Furthermore, although not common on the tabletop, the lore supports Chaos Apothecaries to medically support a warband in the field. I think that as long as they had an adequate supply of ammo a warband could conduct a campaign without mortal support.

 

I also think that just because the don't need a large support staff doesn't mean that that is normal. For one, menial tasks have to be accomplished. Somebody is going to have to carry water out to the defensive position for the other Astartes to drink. There will be times that messages have to be run. Vehicles will have to be fueled and serviced, trenches dug, rest areas cleared to deny enemy intelligence, and numerous other tasks that the chosen servants of the dark gods would probably find beneath them. Maybe even latrines. Sure, some Chaos Marines may still follow the spartan, monastic lifestyle of the Great Crusade era and that the lapdogs of the Corpse Emperor do today, but I imagine plenty of them have at least experimented with a more luxurious lifestyle. I could definitely see EC living lavishly being fed grapes and such.

 

The lore mentions in more than a few instances warbands raiding the Imperium for slaves. They also have retained at least a small amount of their original serfs. Warbands with landholdings would also be able to draw upon their peasants and vassals.

 

Chaos Space Marines, and 40k in general draws a lot from medieval history. In this, the CSM would be the knight who went to war with grooms, pages, squires, smiths, basically a rather large entourage.

 

I could see a Veteran of the Long War having a mortal chief of staff, a savant or subject matter expert to help with rituals or price loot acquired by the CSM, a nurse or two to bring him to full health after being discharged from the medical bay. He might have a painter/ engraver/ taxidermist to keep up the appearance of the war plate and trophies. He could have a buyer or supply personnel to make sure he is fully stocked. Maybe a technician to help fix the more complex systems in his arms and armor. A cook, maid and a few general flunkies.

 

I wouldn't expect these camp followers to leave the rear area or ship but I always imagined that such a staff would exist.

[Dragonlover]

Khornate Sorcerers exist. Even ignoring the blood witch stuff from Blood Pact, if a Khornate Marine yelled at a human so hard they exploded, would anyone really notice? Could just be a gift of the gods. I guess the Nails may well go haywire, but I'm not massively fond of that particular bit of fluff.

 

I see them as tending towards the Biomancy end of the psychic spectrum, with maybe some Pyromancy thrown in. Big, flashy and incredibly unsubtle. It's the mortals that get the sangromancy.

 

Dragonlover

[Jareddm]

I agree that Khornate sorcerers exist, but not Khornate battle sorcerers. I see them as binding daemons to weapons, setting up chaos gates to move from one conquered world to another, empowering the rage that flows through the mortal warriors and acting as communication between warbands. However, I do not see them as launching warp lightning on the battlefield, or making enemies heads explode. That is the work of the honorable warrior and not the sorceror who must beg the warp for power. Just my opinion.

[Sheesh Mode]

I dont think its from the warp, thats just where it goes after. Thats the part the gods need. If it was from the Warp initially, then Chaos wouldnt need mortals.

If it wasn't from the warp it wouldn't return to the warp.  

 

All souls 'echo' in the warp, the material realm isn't independent of the warp, it is an expression of it. The problem is that the warp has become perverted by the War in Heaven giving manifestation of predators that physically seek destruction. It's probably the most horrible thing about 40k, the spiritual realm is out of balance. 

[Iron Father Ferrum]

I prefer to infer that the Alpha Legion is still around and kicking.  Yes, as a Legion.  Perhaps not a united one with a singular chain of command, but at least that its disparate elements -- or some of them, discounting idiots like Voldorius -- work in semi-conjunction with each other in pursuit of some master scheme.  Conspiracy theories about A&O and the looming Heresy-era intra-Legion civil war notwithstanding, I find a lot of the information we have on the Alpha Legion too compelling in terms of its implications of a large and resource-rich network.

 

For example, from the Index Astartes article, we know that the Imperium discovers Alpha Legion bases every now and then.  By their descriptions, these are substantial yet well-disguised facilities.  Where would a single warband of a few hundred or thousand Chaos Marines get the technical expertise and equipment to bore out an asteroid for a star-base or erect a subterranean armory on a death world?  And where would they go when they pack up that base and move to the next?  Without the kind of mass-mobilization of Mechanicus resources that allows the Imperium to build these sorts of facilities in a manner of days or weeks (you'd think something like that might attract attention), it'd take a while to build these kinds of facilities and the only way that the Alpha Legion could have enough spare secret bases to constantly be able to flee from one to another as the Inquisition roots them out is that the particular Legion strikes forces aren't actually conducting attacks -- they're just going around the Imperium building bases!  Thus, they need a giant pool of resources, equipment, and manpower (not to mention exploration teams to find suitable areas in the first place) in order to achieve this web of stockpiles which in turn means that either individual warbands have so thoroughly infiltrated local Imperial governmental entities as to turn these locales into their own personal fiefs (not really the XXth's modus operandi), or they have a giant support network capable of conducting the work for them.

[MaliGn]

I prefer to infer that daemonic possession of a chaos marine isn't 'always on' and that they can exert their will to subdue the daemon in order to communicate and fight with ranged weaponry.

[Tenebris]

On the subject of souls, in my book the stronger the soul is, the stronger is its echo in the Warp, thus a sort of balance is achieved and a reasonable cause-effect mode is enacted between the two. 

 

On the subject of the Alpha Legion, you bet it Deus Ex Ferrum, I still see the Alpha Legion as a relatively united and organized legion especially because I do not think how it would be possible to ignore this aspect of their own doctrine, the very existence and purpose why a legionary of the XXth legion was created in the first place. Unity, effectiveness, pragmatism, ruthless execution and all planned and organized way before any move is made. I agree with your statement, it would be hard for a shattered legion to pull out such feats, and they have been playing with the Imperium for almost then thousand years... such a feat requires coordination, excellence and organization on a legion level.

 

On the subject of the Khornate psykers I think they are in fact a very important aspect of the many Khornate warbands and while their powers are not of the subtle kind, they are imperative for the trade of the warband, by trade I mean killing everything in sight. I even see Khorne boon his warriors with psychic powers and effects if this would benefit him and his reaping of skulls. 

 

On the subject of the Warband retainers and mortal servants. Well they are sometimes even more important than the astartes themselves for without all those humans crewing the ships, supporting the warriors in the field, maintaining the technology and providing all manners of services to their lords any warband would grind to a halt. I think that every chaos astartes has either a personal slave or benefits from a hosts of slaves indentured to the warband, those same slaves could very well be personal artificers, medics or even pilots and entertainers. My estimate is that to put a space marine on the field you need at least a hundred humans behind him as part of the logistics, the crews and the servant contingents, excluding soldiers and enforcers. 

 

On the subject of the daemonic possession akin to the "werewolf form" from the stories we all love, it is proven in many novels and short stories that only in the most extreme cases is a permanent form. In the Word Bearers books, Burias was able to switch the form almost at will, while sometimes the daemon took command over its mortal host.