Is it worth giving the Sicaran Venator lascannon sponsons?

[The Pounder]

I'm starting an Ultramarines force for 30k.

I really love the models for the Sicaran and Sicaran Venator and will buy both models.

Now my question is, is it worth giving the Venator lascannon sponsons, or

are they redundant given that it's main weapon is ordnance?

Haven't got my rulebooks at the moment, so any help would be appreciated.

[Slips]

Well, the main gun is ordnance and is powerful enough on its own that two, un-twin-linked lascannons firing snap shots may not be all that worth it. It also helps keep the cost down and gives an easier time in picking up armored ceramite.

 

If you want to give it sponsons Heavy Bolters are more likely to get hits off due to weight of fire.

 

That said I haven't fielded one myself.

[The Pounder]

Thanks, that's what I thought.

[Raktra]

I'd slap on the heavy bolter sponsons and then whatever pintle weapon is the cheapest. Weapon destroyed protection.

[Bowlzee]

Venator can't take a Pintle Weapon, so it's almost worth taking Heavy Bolter Sponsons. plus it's a good anti infantry weapon if in a push it needs to defend itself.

[Sanct]

venator already has a pintle heavy bolter

[Raktra]

Huh, shows what my memory's like.

[Still Standing]

I run my Venator with 3 Heavy Bolters, purely for Weapon Destroyed protection. Occassionally I will have no good targets for the main gun, so I'll fire the 9 Heavy Bolter shots, but that's a last resort.

 

My regular Sicaran gets Lascannons, as heavy bolters are pretty poor as anti-Marine weapons, whereas Lascannons are pretty good. On top of that, the Sicaran's main gun is pretty damn good at killing armour, which complements the Lascannons nicely.

[ChainMachete]

Just ordered a Venator to run alongside my Sicaran battle tank. I plan to build one set of sponsons with heavy bolters and one set with lascannons and magnetise them so I can swap what goes on the Sicaran nattle tank. But at the moment, I don't have any intention of using either with the Venator - too much of a points sink in my opinion.

 

But what to do about the round holes left in the side of the Venator? Building some sort of round magnetised plate with plasticard sounds like the best option (in case the rules for Ordnance ever change or I just have points to burn). Has anyone done something similar to this? Photos?

[Krikey]

But what to do about the round holes left in the side of the Venator? Building some sort of round magnetised plate with plasticard sounds like the best option (in case the rules for Ordnance ever change or I just have points to burn). Has anyone done something similar to this? Photos?

 

Which legion are you running? Some of the FW brass would fit quite nicely onto a circular plasticard plug -- then you would have a nice decorative plate for the empty space. It's what I'm planning on doing with mine.

 

~K

[ChainMachete]

 

But what to do about the round holes left in the side of the Venator? Building some sort of round magnetised plate with plasticard sounds like the best option (in case the rules for Ordnance ever change or I just have points to burn). Has anyone done something similar to this? Photos?

 

Which legion are you running? Some of the FW brass would fit quite nicely onto a circular plasticard plug -- then you would have a nice decorative plate for the empty space. It's what I'm planning on doing with mine.

 

~K

 

 

Word Bearers, so no etched brass or transfers for me.

 

I have some blue stuff I bought recently and of course plenty of green stuff. So I was thinking about making a blue stuff press-mold, using the Word Bearers book/flame from a Rhino door set I have, then using that to make a green stuff icon that I could glue to a disc of plasticard. Should also hide the hole in the plasticard used to fit the magnet. If I'm feeling ambitious, I'll also add some rivets near the rim of the disc.

[Hesh Kadesh]

Argh, really annoyed. Spent an age working on a post backed up by numbers, but lost it when the cat sat on the keyboard. but yes, it's worth it with Lascannons. With the chance to explode, it's better than Graviton Cannons at killing Land Raiders. 

[ChainMachete]

Argh, really annoyed. Spent an age working on a post backed up by numbers, but lost it when the cat sat on the keyboard. but yes, it's worth it with Lascannons. With the chance to explode, it's better than Graviton Cannons at killing Land Raiders. 

 

I really don't agree with you here. The main gun is ordnance, so you're snap-firing the lascannons. When I did the maths, here's what I got for two lascannons for the increased probability of doing an extra hull point vs. getting an explodes result for each AV value:

 

AV14   0.111   0.009

AV13   0.167   0.019

AV12   0.222   0.028

AV11   0.278   0.037

AV10   0.333   0.046

 

Here's a similar set of figures for just the neutron laser:

 

AV14   0.667   0.148

AV13   0.889   0.222

AV12   1.111   0.296

AV11   1.333   0.370

AV10   1.333   0.444

 

This doesn't include the benefits of ordnance, concussive & shock-pulse, so is an underestimate of the value of the neutron laser.

 

So for a Land Raider, your going from a 14.8% chance of an explosion per turn of shooting to a 15.7% chance, which is just a 6.25% improvement for a 21% increase in cost. And if I could be bothered to account for ordnance in my neutron laser stats, it would be even less of an improvement.

 

The sponsons aren't wasted though. Just magnetise them to give you more weapon choices for other tanks. I've got a Sicaran Battle Tank and a Venator, so I can now choose if I want heavy bolters or lascannons on my Battle Tank depending on what else I've got in my list. But it also gives you options for Typhons, Predators, etc. Or anything else that uses the same mount. Magnets can also solve the problems of droopy sponson guns, since the way I've used them stops the guns from rotating by themselves. There's a magnet on the hull, plus a magnet in the middle of the inner sponson ring. The two bumps on the inside of the outer sponson ring lock that ring in place against the hull. The inner ring is held in place by the magnets and only turns with respect to the outer ring if you turn the guns by hand. Simples.

 

I've still put magnets on my Venator hull and my circular plasticard discs so I can always swap the discs for sponson weapons. But unless the rules for ordnance change, I can't see me ever choosing to do this for lascannons.

 

I can see an argument for heavy bolters, since they are cheaper. You get the same protection against weapon destroyed results as lascannons, but at half the cost. And for a take-all-comers list, the Venator isn't wasted points if you end up playing against a hoard army with little or no vehicle support. This latter consideration is far more valid if you regularly play against 40k opponents of course. Even so, I'm still not sure I'll ever use these either, but with magnetised sponsons, I've at least got the choice.

[Hesh Kadesh]

When I was running my maths, I failed to account for the Snap Firing of Lascannons forced by the Ordnance Neutron Laser.

[ChainMachete]

 

Here's a similar set of figures for just the neutron laser:

 

AV14   0.667   0.148

AV13   0.889   0.222

AV12   1.111   0.296

AV11   1.333   0.370

AV10   1.333   0.444

 

This doesn't include the benefits of ordnance, concussive & shock-pulse, so is an underestimate of the value of the neutron laser.

 

So for a Land Raider, your going from a 14.8% chance of an explosion per turn of shooting to a 15.7% chance, which is just a 6.25% improvement for a 21% increase in cost. And if I could be bothered to account for ordnance in my neutron laser stats, it would be even less of an improvement.

 

Here's the Neutron Laser stats corrected for ordnance:

 

AV14   1.000   0.247

AV13   1.185   0.333

AV12   1.296   0.395

AV11   1.333   0.432

AV10   1.333   0.444

 

Makes quite a big difference for AV13 & 14, but not much of one for AV10 & 11. So the lascannons make even less of a difference - now it's just a 3.6% improvement in the chances of exploding AV14.

 

However I was forgetting one major advantage the lascannons have. The Venator looks much better with them on!

[Theredknight]

Why can't you just fire the lascannons first? It's only snapshots AFTER youv fired an ordinance weapon.

[Raktra]

Everything fires at once for those purposes, so it doesn't help.

[Millicant]

Why can't you just fire the lascannons first? It's only snapshots AFTER youv fired an ordinance weapon.

Yeah that's definitely not a rule. All weapons are fired simultaneously. If you fired the lascannons at full BS you would be prohibited from firing any ordnance.

[Raktra]

The exact wording is:
"A vehicle that fires an ordnance weapon can only make snap shots with its other weapons that turn."

Nothing about order of events.

[Millicant]

Exactly raktra, I'm agreeing with you. :)

[Raktra]

Oh I know, I just missed it out of my other post :)