SvenONE Posted December 4, 2014 Share Posted December 4, 2014 Aura's got a good point. A lot of us, among our nice little community here have a pretty great rapport and discourse on what we've all come to agree as standards or "good" aspects of our codex we can recommend to people. Thank the Lion for this place because in my own community I'm the last official DA player as the other had sold off all of his GW/RW (still has some DW though I think), he was even ready to just throw them out if no one bought them off him. Rather than recommending Dark Angels to interested players, I tread more diplomatically with the caveat that they are not an easy army to play. I won't poo poo on the codex the same way I will here, but at this point my advice to interested DA players comes in the form of cautionary rather than promotional. Something along the lines of: "We have great models with some really great poses and a lot of history, but it's not easy to be a DA player. It depends on what you are looking for in a codex and how you want to play." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother-Sergeant Bohemond Posted December 4, 2014 Share Posted December 4, 2014 The codex has its flaws, its about learning how to apply its strengths. I've played DA since...4th Ed...and its always been this way for us. We have moments of inspiration, where GW almost nails it on the head - then they completely miss the mark or reduce its effectiveness thanks to Meta. One thing I have noticed is that if you play to the background with your gaming group, things seem to balance out more than if you play to maximise strengths. I think the problem is GW operates in a 'forging the narrative' vacuum and so while they think something works there, they do not abuse Codexes to find out if they are overpowered, underpowered or balanced in that regard. If they playtested them in that regard things would change, but the way they work isn't like that - so they don't think like that - and hence why tournaments are not supported, really, by them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crimsonsphinx Posted December 5, 2014 Share Posted December 5, 2014 I have never minded being underpowered. I admit I bought my dark angel army in 4th edition, but I was playing by the codex rules in 5th. A traitor, I know, but their rules were miles better. The downside has been to change my army to a Dark Angels army for our current book cost me a lot of money that I could have avoided in the first place! I think that as long as you include our unique units, you are doing things right. If you try to out codex a codex army, then you will be playing with a huge disadvantage. They do that better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Interrogator Stobz Posted December 5, 2014 Share Posted December 5, 2014 I too don't mind being underpowered, there are just too many stupid things in our beloved dex for my liking. For Xmas I really wanted them addressed; I must be suffering Post Hype Mehness, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phoebus Posted December 5, 2014 Share Posted December 5, 2014 I bought this product, and was disappointed. I guess I expected more than an army list and pictures of models. Would it have killed them to actually provide statistics for Balthasar, Turmiel, Barachiel, and/or Raphael? You know, to set them apart from standard Company Masters, Librarians, etc.? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Space Truckin Posted December 5, 2014 Share Posted December 5, 2014 Another possible chance for redemption? Well realistically don't get your hopes up but Dark Angels are back in black. As of today we are listed again on the 19th on both the Red and Black Calendars. What will it be, one last glimmer of hope for our sulking chapter or double the disappointment? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaplain Lucifer Posted December 5, 2014 Share Posted December 5, 2014 Prepare for the worst and hope for the best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prot Posted December 5, 2014 Share Posted December 5, 2014 Since I play 14,000 armies, I picked up the Crimson Slaughter / Chaos Dataslate as well as the Dark Angel one and both are severely handicapped by a massive, non-objective secured, army requirement, which is also loaded with stuff you may never take otherwise. The benefits simply don't out weigh the large negatives, but honestly the Chaos one is at least usable whereas the Dark Angel one is nothing more than a 'fun' thing to do with your brand new expansion kit, but I'd advice against anyone else buying it unless you're like me and 'just had to have it'. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZONKEY Posted December 5, 2014 Share Posted December 5, 2014 Is there any paticular reason that the dark angels don't get a lot of love..compared to other astartes (as people keep saying) is it because we where the first new loyal codex and everything will be tweaked in the new one next year maybe, I just wanna know what GWs thought process is to are lack of apparent love? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaplain Lucifer Posted December 5, 2014 Share Posted December 5, 2014 It's hard to give a reason, but one of them is that we don't have a "champion" or hardcore DA player in the design team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SvenONE Posted December 5, 2014 Share Posted December 5, 2014 Well from a quick glance of the chaos details, it's kind of funny since it also apparently gives stubborn and fear. So if you expanded your DV sets and bought these, you basically got the same armies fighting each other. Well here's looking forward to the one 2 weeks or so from now. My money is on a small DW formation, specifically something command squad related. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aura_enchanted Posted December 5, 2014 Share Posted December 5, 2014 Well from a quick glance of the chaos details, it's kind of funny since it also apparently gives stubborn and fear. So if you expanded your DV sets and bought these, you basically got the same armies fighting each other. Well here's looking forward to the one 2 weeks or so from now. My money is on a small DW formation, specifically something command squad related. someone with all the models should track down someone with all the proper chaos models and do a bat rep "for science" (as they say). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prot Posted December 5, 2014 Share Posted December 5, 2014 Well from a quick glance of the chaos details, it's kind of funny since it also apparently gives stubborn and fear. So if you expanded your DV sets and bought these, you basically got the same armies fighting each other. Well here's looking forward to the one 2 weeks or so from now. My money is on a small DW formation, specifically something command squad related. someone with all the models should track down someone with all the proper chaos models and do a bat rep "for science" (as they say). *ahem* http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/297181-prots-everything-dark-angels-blog/?p=3817279 *cough* http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/296907-prots-everything-crimson-slaughter-blog/?p=3812322 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Sheol Posted December 5, 2014 Share Posted December 5, 2014 It's hard to give a reason, but one of them is that we don't have a "champion" or hardcore DA player in the design team. Lucifer pretty nailed it... DA best dex was the second edition one when all the game was designed by a unique team and Priestley and JJ pretty nailed what the DA were comapred to the other chapters... If you play 2nd edition DA against another 2nd edition army you will feel the power of the first legion... then came 3rd edition and GW started with the conservative way to deisgn our codex... GW knew that DA had a HUGE fanbase and so they didnt pushed too much our dex cause they knew it was selling itself like icecreams on a summer beach... The problem is that through direct ammission of JJ and PK in the GD team there are more players fans of their armies than professional writers so it happens that when a GD loves an army he push the throttle on it... I might think that Vetock loves more the tau than the DA for example... I dont have any hope that we will receive a decent codex since it's since 3rd edition we don't have one... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isiah Posted December 5, 2014 Share Posted December 5, 2014 I don't agree. In all honesty our Vettock Codex wasn't that bad on its release. It's just that in the meantime others have caught up and surpassed ours :). Cheers I Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZONKEY Posted December 5, 2014 Share Posted December 5, 2014 It's just people seem a bit forlorn about the codex which sometimes wonder will we be indoctrinated into the main codex with deathwing and ravenwing being a supplement? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isiah Posted December 5, 2014 Share Posted December 5, 2014 I think not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZONKEY Posted December 5, 2014 Share Posted December 5, 2014 So what would make people happy about our codex? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prot Posted December 5, 2014 Share Posted December 5, 2014 The codex isn't as horrible as people make it out to be. That would be my short answer. There are some very specific units with really bad/dated rules, but most of what's wrong really amounts to overcosting items that can be broken down into cheaper equivalents in the Codex Astartes. But if you do a search in the forum you'll find this discussion comes up a LOT. :) This is coming from someone who actively plays DA and Ultra. On this formation though, it's a huge miss imo. I'm working on the Crimson Slaughter variant and it's much more.. usable though certainly not what I would consider potent. It's no sky blight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Interrogator Stobz Posted December 5, 2014 Share Posted December 5, 2014 That shouldn't happen anytime soon ZONKEY, GW like an excuse to sell heaps of books, there must be a good margin on them. Master Isiah, I think that the overall power level of our Dex is still fine except against the cheese monger lists that some well known xenos can bring. I disagree with any statement about it not being that bad from a design point of view; Asmodai, Deathwing Apothecary, Blade of Caliban, Land Speeder Vengeance, Nephilim Jetfighter, Dark Talon, Dark Shroud, Blacksword missiles, Plasma Storm Battery, Rift cannon, Stasis Bomb, Porta-rack, Foe-smiter, Monster Slayer of Caliban, Shroud of Heroes, PFG use, Sword of Secrets, Mind Worm, Asmodai, Sword of Silence, Asmodai, Raven Sword, Asmodai, Apothecary weapons, Asmodai ;) all spring to mind when bad rules are mentioned. The over pricing of various units doesn't bother me as I've said I can do quite well against most armies with what's left of our dex (often needing FW help though) , it's the poor thought put into the above that grinds my gears. :P I now wait with bated breath for the 19th ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aura_enchanted Posted December 5, 2014 Share Posted December 5, 2014 That shouldn't happen anytime soon ZONKEY, GW like an excuse to sell heaps of books, there must be a good margin on them. Master Isiah, I think that the overall power level of our Dex is still fine except against the cheese monger lists that some well known xenos can bring. I disagree with any statement about it not being that bad from a design point of view; Asmodai, Deathwing Apothecary, Blade of Caliban, Land Speeder Vengeance, Nephilim Jetfighter, Dark Talon, Dark Shroud, Blacksword missiles, Plasma Storm Battery, Rift cannon, Stasis Bomb, Porta-rack, Foe-smiter, Monster Slayer of Caliban, Shroud of Heroes, PFG use, Sword of Secrets, Mind Worm, Asmodai, Sword of Silence, Asmodai, Raven Sword, Asmodai, Apothecary weapons, Asmodai all spring to mind when bad rules are mentioned. The over pricing of various units doesn't bother me as I've said I can do quite well against most armies with what's left of our dex (often needing FW help though) , it's the poor thought put into the above that grinds my gears. I now wait with bated breath for the 19th http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/000/681/what-you-did-there-i-see-it.thumbnail.jpg as a lover of the mjaster of sanctity i must post this. sorry im paid to do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Interrogator Stobz Posted December 6, 2014 Share Posted December 6, 2014 Don't be sorry, they are only my opinion :yes: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother-Sergeant Bohemond Posted December 6, 2014 Share Posted December 6, 2014 Our Codex was nearly on the mark. A lot of it needs tweaks to make it on par with the majority of 6th-7th ed armies, but its pretty much there. Sure, there are some really bad units - Stobz mentioned them all - and a few tweaks would actually fix the disparity with those units. Namely points drops, a few rule tweaks and changes of the profile on a few weapons. Other than that, its a good codex. The biggest thing though, is that its not an insta-win codex unlike 5th Ed GK and current TauDar. It performs well, but not awesomely. It requires practice and thinking to pull of a victory - one might say its a tactical codex - rather than the Eldar army which you just pull out your Wraithknights and Serpents and away you go. As a result, I like the challenge. And as you get to know it, it becomes easier to pull of a victory. Despite the rules :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaplain Lucifer Posted December 6, 2014 Share Posted December 6, 2014 Our Codex isn't bad, with a points adjustment here and there and some different wording and minor tweaks we would have a solid Codex. Not instant win like a Xenos Codex but it would be solid against anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varizel Posted December 6, 2014 Share Posted December 6, 2014 That shouldn't happen anytime soon ZONKEY, GW like an excuse to sell heaps of books, there must be a good margin on them. Master Isiah, I think that the overall power level of our Dex is still fine except against the cheese monger lists that some well known xenos can bring. I disagree with any statement about it not being that bad from a design point of view; Asmodai, Deathwing Apothecary, Blade of Caliban, Land Speeder Vengeance, Nephilim Jetfighter, Dark Talon, Dark Shroud, Blacksword missiles, Plasma Storm Battery, Rift cannon, Stasis Bomb, Porta-rack, Foe-smiter, Monster Slayer of Caliban, Shroud of Heroes, PFG use, Sword of Secrets, Mind Worm, Asmodai, Sword of Silence, Asmodai, Raven Sword, Asmodai, Apothecary weapons, Asmodai all spring to mind when bad rules are mentioned. The over pricing of various units doesn't bother me as I've said I can do quite well against most armies with what's left of our dex (often needing FW help though) , it's the poor thought put into the above that grinds my gears. I now wait with bated breath for the 19th Hey look at the bright side brother Stobz, Asmodai has one of the most hilarious fluff right now on Warlords of the Dark Angels... Dude a total buzzkiller and one angry angry chum. But on topic for our codex though, our codex itself was a miss opportunity imo. They could've gone more, but... even if the end results wasn't bad and i actually liked it a lot, but it felt lacking... or missing something, especially the greenwing.. or more like the Veteran Squad for me. I don't even mind not having the special ammo like sternguard, but i don't know, our veteran felt like... 4th edition Space Marine Codex (not dark angels... cuz they dun change that much from Dark Angels 4th ed codex, if at all) without the veteran skill. Can our veteran have the veteran skill at least if we don't have special ammo? it is in the fluff after all; an ad hoc formation that was gathered under special circumstances. Certainly it wouldn't be strange for all of them to have a specialty (Veteran) skill? But i digress, for this particular formation, it is disappointing for me personally, cuz it grants a rule relentless, but only 1 guy in 1 unit in that formation that can actually utilize it for long range shooting if we only take the formation. Of course we can take banner of devastation on a seperate detachment, and that rule isn't that bad now because now we can move and then shoot 4 bolter shots, but man, now we had to buy another HQ and 2 more troops and the command squad. In the event that GW wants us to utilize the banners more, why not add the command squad inside the formation? Why limit the tacts to one squad? Why Hatred anyway? So many questions.... so many options they could go. Feels like missed opportunity, again. My 2 cents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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