Brother Captain and Paladin box questions

[Grand Master Caloth]

Nah, I'm really not a fan of the heavy psycannon. And I can't join my grand master or librarian to a DK, now can I?

[Brom MKIV]

Anything a Paladin squad does, a DK can do better and cheaper. It's sad, but its literally how the rules work

I'm gonna try out the gatling psilencer over incinerators (I always take heavy psycannon on DK's, and you should too). Multi-wound is a pain to kill at range, and they will fail saves eventually. Denying FNP is also a big deal, people forget that.

There is one thing paladins do that GKTs can't, and thats the nemesis banner. Forcing dangerous terrain in a 24" bubble is just nasty. -2" to charge range on non beast/cav, possible immobilized on grinders, and best of all they strike at initiative 1. Should be lolz.

My goal is to make a unit that is in the same ballpark of cost as a GKT unit but with the added benefit of the bubble. Ballpark being a generous word here.

On the gatling psilencer, I'm convinced its the better of the two secondary weapons. The range does matter and the targets it excels at include those of the incinerator but also much scarier targets the incin falls short against. knights are there to crack hard targets and I believe the Gat synergizes better with that. And I get to say Gat all the time.

Plus theres nothing funnier than watching an uber 4 wound thunderlord of death with 2+/4++ and 7 x S10 reroll-everything shiit his fur trying to LO,S instant death wounds only to watch his buddies drop to bad rolls.

Nah, I'm really not a fan of the heavy psycannon. And I can't join my grand master or librarian to a DK, now can I?

Whut? Its the best weapon in our arsenal. Hell its one of the coolest marine weapons in the game especially on a shunting chassis.

[Grand Master Caloth]

Not into it being a blast. But I'm glad others like the psylincer, just may have to try it next game

[Brom MKIV]

Well the large blast mode is only for clumps of infantry (which is why it's often preferred over the incin). Just in case you haven't revisited the profile, the new version also has a 6 shot psycannon mode. Old players may miss that bit Idk.

[Rurik the blessed]

Anything a Paladin squad does, a DK can do better and cheaper. It's sad, but its literally how the rules work

I'm gonna try out the gatling psilencer over incinerators (I always take heavy psycannon on DK's, and you should too). Multi-wound is a pain to kill at range, and they will fail saves eventually. Denying FNP is also a big deal, people forget that.

I think you're wrong... you can't compare a single NDK with a Paladin Squad, because what they do is a little more of two NDK... at least in survivability. I am a great fan of Paladins, perhaps of what people thinks. They always survive when two NDKs last until turn 4 at most.

Maybe is how we use them... nobody has the last word.

[raverrn]

Paladins are also super-valuable for giving Libbies FNP.

[Rurik the blessed]

Paladins are also super-valuable for giving Libbies FNP.

 

Also the banner gives libby or any HQ an extra attack. good for Captains and GM. or even Crowe

[Brom MKIV]

Yes to all the above! I've decided paladins aren't meant to bring guns. THEN they are too expensive for what you get. What they are is combat monsters and body guards. 

 

Against S8+ they take a hit but below that they are basically 150% more durable than your average GKT squad due to more wounds, FNP and wound allocation which is impossible to quantify but which does come into play just like any multi wound squad.

 

My current build I plan on testing in the next day or two is one of these:

 

librarian- ml 3, ndh, bone shard

4 paladins- nemesis banner, 3 falchions, 4 meltabombs, apoth- 307

 

-OR- 

 

Draigo

3 paladins- nemesis banner, 2 falchions, 3 meltabombs, apoth- 243

 

 

Both squads are designed to get stuck in and chew through large blocks of infantry and deal with mech via assault.  5-6 attack draigo just sounds yummy, especially vs daemons where this unit will basically be unstoppable. Active HH and Force means they can mulch even a charging grinder AND a khorne herald before they strike. I'll probably be facing crons actually but i'll run the setup anyhow and I might encounter CSM too idk yet. 

[Grand Master Caloth]

I run 4 paladins with psycannon, 6 hammers, 4 halberds, and storm boltets on the rest, plus an apoth. 718 pts, but can combat squad

[Reclusiarch Darius]

 

Nah, I'm really not a fan of the heavy psycannon. And I can't join my grand master or librarian to a DK, now can I? 

 

 

............please be trolling

There is one thing paladins do that GKTs can't, and thats the nemesis banner. Forcing dangerous terrain in a 24" bubble is just nasty. -2" to charge range on non beast/cav, possible immobilized on grinders, and best of all they strike at initiative 1. Should be lolz. 

 

Which costs a lot of points and doesn't affect shooty units one iota. Paladins need zero help crushing face in melee, its surviving ranged attacks that is their glaring weakness. Apothecary helps somewhat against S7 or less, but S8+ and AP2 just vapes them with impunity (a profile that is increasingly common in other armies). 

 

My goal is to make a unit that is in the same ballpark of cost as a GKT unit but with the added benefit of the bubble. Ballpark being a generous word here. 

 

 

Well its impossible, because the gap between 33 and 55 is immense. Not to mention, nemesis upgrades now cost points. I just don't ever see Paladins being better than 2 squads of GKT's in the same situation. 

On the gatling psilencer, I'm convinced its the better of the two secondary weapons. The range does matter and the targets it excels at include those of the incinerator but also much scarier targets the incin falls short against. knights are there to crack hard targets and I believe the Gat synergizes better with that. And I get to say Gat all the time.

 

12 shots helps. I'm finding more and more we don't need incinerator. We already rek infantry fine, its vehicles and MC's that we struggle against at range (in melee we generally stomp everything, but GW hates melee). 'Force' is pretty clutch if they fail that crucial armour or cover save, and they will under repeated fire from 2 or more. 

 

Plus theres nothing funnier than watching an uber 4 wound thunderlord of death with 2+/4++ and 7 x S10 reroll-everything shiit his fur trying to LO,S instant death wounds only to watch his buddies drop to bad rolls.

 

 

 

 

Well Smashmaster has Eternal Warrior due to the relic shield, so he doesn't care. Neither does Abby, or Draigo, or Ghaz. There aren't too many other beatstick HQ's people use that come to mind, but most have Eternal Warrior. Oh yeah, Lysander as well. 

Not into it being a blast. But I'm glad others like the psylincer, just may have to try it next game 

 

It has two firing modes. Read the codex

I think you're wrong... you can't compare a single NDK with a Paladin Squad, because what they do is a little more of two NDK... at least in survivability. I am a great fan of Paladins, perhaps of what people thinks. They always survive when two NDKs last until turn 4 at most.

Maybe is how we use them... nobody has the last word.

 

Okay, explain to me in what scenario a Paladin squad is better than a Dreadknight. 

Paladins are also super-valuable for giving Libbies FNP. 

 

 

Seeing how easily its denied, I don't agree. 

 

I run 4 paladins with psycannon, 6 hammers, 4 halberds, and storm boltets on the rest, plus an apoth. 718 pts, but can combat squad 

 

 

For nearly the same points you can get either;

 

2x 10 GKT's with 2 psycannons per squad

(740 points)

 

or

 

3x Dreadknight w/greatsword, heavy psycannon, heavy psilencer

(690 points)

 

Paladins are overpriced garbage. When an Elites choice is worse than both your Troops and Heavy Support, its bad. 

 

[raverrn]

Darius, you know you get FNP against Perils, right?

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Darius, you know you get FNP against Perils, right? 

 

Yeah but its not going to convince me to take Paladins over Terminators. 

[calvin the wraithlord]

Darius, you know you get FNP against Perils, right?

Pretty awesome but i donno if it would be worth the points cost ill need to try it out!

 

 

 

 

Nah, I'm really not a fan of the heavy psycannon. And I can't join my grand master or librarian to a DK, now can I? 

 

 

............please be trolling

He is trolling there's no way hes being serious

 

As much as i like the idea of Paladins the fact they die just the same as a normal GKT to a ST8 shot (of which there is billions of in 7th ed) makes them a complete point sink, Darius is right, take two squads of GKT's instead that way they will still kill you just as easily but there's more of you meaning there's more chance you'll reach combat. I Honestly would swap the +1W on paladins for +1T just like deathwing knights, but even then they'd still be over priced. Other than trying out Raverrns libby tactic, i can never see of an instance id run them over terms

 

[Grand Master Caloth]

No, RD and Calvin, I'm not trolling and you both are seriously rude for the comment. Just because someone else's idea doesn't match your own doesn't give you the right to trash talk them. Also, RD, while I thank you and Brom for pointing out that I did not realize the heavy psycannon now has two profiles, he at least was polite about it. And for a Moderati who is supposed to put a stop to that crap, the fact that you perpetuate it speaks volumes.

[raverrn]

Lololol. You messed up, man. Take your licks and move on.

[Grand Master Caloth]

I call it as I see it. The comments were out of line, and I said so. If I'm going to be punished for that, so be it.

 

On topic, my Palin paladin unit has really been useful for me, tho I am toying with changing half the psycannons to psylincers for a game or two, give them a whirl before trying the dk version

[Brom MKIV]

I believe there are more than a few instances where paladins are better than nilla termies. The smaller unit size with nearly identical damage output is valuable especially for DS into clogged areas and for resisting blast/template weaponry or gaining cover for the unit from terrain. Adding +1 attack and/or FNP to ICs like draigo and libbys is obviously good and worth the 20 pts by itself. Finally the dangerous terrain bubble from the banner while situational is great against daemons and any army utilizing summoning which broadens the spectrum a bit. 

 

As far as ID problems, paladins are obviously more susceptible to S8+ of the ap2 variety. However draigo can mitigate that to an extent. Its also worth noting that attracting S8 away from NDKs isn't a complete loss either since these weapons are in limited supply and neary always low volume.

 

When evaluating paladins we should also consider other weaponry that exists, that of the strength 4 thru 7 or even X variety at ap2. I'm thinking specifically of plasma and all xenos plasma equivalents, all grav weaponry, all rending and ghetto rending (bladestorm/monofilament), D-scythes, sun cannons, disi cannons, and probably more. Basically all the common high rate of fire ap2 weapons of the non ID variety. Against these weapons the paladins come out ahead of GKTs by a large margin due to multi wound and FNP. 

 

To take it a little further lets consider eldar for example, or daemons or crons or even WS bikers. All higher end competitive armies which lack in the S8 ap2 department (I'm not talking theoretic builds but actual common accepted builds). Against these armies paladins seem to be well worth the investment.

[calvin the wraithlord]

I believe there are more than a few instances where paladins are better than nilla termies. The smaller unit size with nearly identical damage output is valuable especially for DS into clogged areas and for resisting blast/template weaponry or gaining cover for the unit from terrain. Adding +1 attack and/or FNP to ICs like draigo and libbys is obviously good and worth the 20 pts by itself. Finally the dangerous terrain bubble from the banner while situational is great against daemons and any army utilizing summoning which broadens the spectrum a bit. 

 

When evaluating paladins we should also consider other weaponry that exists, that of the strength 4 thru 7 or even X variety at ap2. I'm thinking specifically of plasma and all xenos plasma equivalents, all grav weaponry, all rending and ghetto rending (bladestorm/monofilament), D-scythes, sun cannons, disi cannons, and probably more. Basically all the common high rate of fire ap2 weapons of the non ID variety. Against these weapons the paladins come out ahead of GKTs by a large margin due to multi wound and FNP. 

 

To take it a little further lets consider eldar for example, or daemons or crons or even WS bikers. All higher end competitive armies which lack in the S8 ap2 department (I'm not talking theoretic builds but actual common accepted builds). Against these armies paladins seem to be well worth the investment.

We already destroy demons, so the banner is meh and ehm ehm bright lances, heavy wraithcannons, normal wraithcannons, singing spears, fusion guns etc etc etc, that's alot of St8+. I cant speak for the others as i don't know there weapons off the top of my head. Yes sure they might be "fun" in smaller less competitive games, but i still see no way they top GKT, more bodies, basically do the same minus FNP and one WS, just don't see the pros beating the cons here.

[raverrn]

Give 'em a shot. I've had a lot of success both with a 3-man barebones unit and a 5-man 2 'cannon team.

[calvin the wraithlord]

Recon i will man, running the same lists gets boring haha could be fun playing about with stuff

[Brom MKIV]

We already destroy demons, so the banner is meh and ehm ehm bright lances, heavy wraithcannons, normal wraithcannons, singing spears, fusion guns etc etc etc, that's alot of St8+. I cant speak for the others as i don't know there weapons off the top of my head. Yes sure they might be "fun" in smaller less competitive games, but i still see no way they top GKT, more bodies, basically do the same minus FNP and one WS, just don't see the pros beating the cons here.

 

I don't agree that we simply destroy daemons. I thought we would but after quite a few games against them its been an absolute slugfest every time. They have tons of tools against us too not the least of which is just spamming screamers and heralds. Most games I play see the daemon player with over 25 WC at some point. I do well just sayin..

 

Out of the weapons you listed I rarely see most of those if at all bar fusion and HWCs. Bright lances are like relics I still aint seen one since somewhere around 4-5th edition. People favor scythes over D cannons because their almost always better, scatter laser over lance etc. HWCs are again very low RoF. I know mine feel more like BS 3 and anyway I'd much rather they shoot at a paladin squad then possibly ID my NDKs. 

 

My point from above in a nutshell is that units with a distinct weakness tend to be evaluated only from that perspective.. i.e. every unit has 4 multi meltas and nothing better to shoot at. It just isn't the case in the vast majority of games in my experience. People bring tools for a specific job so you'll usually encounter some specialized units, but thats manageable and does not invalidate an otherwise viable unit. 

[raverrn]

The one time I ran nine double-lance war walkers notwithstanding, Brom is way right. Units don't act in a vaccum. Not all weapons are availabile in numbers, and as a Grey Knight you are almost always controlling your opponent's ranges and LoS.

[calvin the wraithlord]

 

I don't agree that we simply destroy daemons. I thought we would but after quite a few games against them its been an absolute slugfest every time. They have tons of tools against us too not the least of which is just spamming screamers and heralds. Most games I play see the daemon player with over 25 WC at some point. I do well just sayin..

 

Out of the weapons you listed I rarely see most of those if at all bar fusion and HWCs. Bright lances are like relics I still aint seen one since somewhere around 4-5th edition. People favor scythes over D cannons because their almost always better, scatter laser over lance etc. HWCs are again very low RoF. I know mine feel more like BS 3 and anyway I'd much rather they shoot at a paladin squad then possibly ID my NDKs. 

 

My point from above in a nutshell is that units with a distinct weakness tend to be evaluated only from that perspective.. i.e. every unit has 4 multi meltas and nothing better to shoot at. It just isn't the case in the vast majority of games in my experience. People bring tools for a specific job so you'll usually encounter some specialized units, but thats manageable and does not invalidate an otherwise viable unit. 

 

The Eldar players in your gaming group clearly dont play MEQ/TEQs often then, or just arent very good, and id much rather they were shooting at my much cheaper and much more abundant terms rather than my stupidly overpriced Paladins.

 

Exactly, anyone who faces GKs will bring high STR weapons because they know they will be facing NDKs, because i mean what GK player doesn't run them? Those same high STR weapons have likly only have few shots, those same few shots will wipe out all your fancy paladins just as if they were GKTs, but if you had terms rather than Paladins then it wouldn't be as massive a blow to your army because you have more men on the field and your points have been invested across your list rather than on a ever squishy deathstar unit therefore, the few shots will still kill them but you have many more, and hopefully the men you have left  will kill said high STR shooting unit befiore it can fire any more. get what time saying? By all means run paladins if you like them, and i will try them out as i fancy varying my list abit, i just don't see them working in a highly competitive environment.

[Brom MKIV]

Well the armies I listed ARE from a highly competitive environment. Sometimes those environments distill the meta down. It sounds like what your saying is your opponents are going to change their army to deal with you, and some of that is to be expected. Otoh I don't see people taking extra melta just to deal with MCs when they have grav or plas because its not as efficient. Same with lances. And spamming lances isn't a sign of 'good' eldar players btw, because again there are more efficient options. 

 

Eldar aren't going to suddenly start spamming lances around here because my mech-less army decided to add 3 paladins. Thats the point of these guys for me, an under the radar build that tilts the daemon/csm match further in my favor. And in that match they are light years ahead of normal termies. Why? Because ws5 becomes a defensive stat to reduce incoming attacks, and forcing the whole army to strike at initiative 1 in 2 feet square is fantastic. It allows 4 models including draigo to teleport into centerfield and dominate against an entire army.

 

Anyway the difference between that unit and GKT similarly equipped is 3 models (well 2.5). Hardly game breaking. 

[calvin the wraithlord]

Well the armies I listed ARE from a highly competitive environment. Sometimes those environments distill the meta down. It sounds like what your saying is your opponents are going to change their army to deal with you, and some of that is to be expected. Otoh I don't see people taking extra melta just to deal with MCs when they have grav or plas because its not as efficient. Same with lances. And spamming lances isn't a sign of 'good' eldar players btw, because again there are more efficient options. 

 

 

Eldar aren't going to suddenly start spamming lances around here because my mech-less army decided to add 3 paladins. Thats the point of these guys for me, an under the radar build that tilts the daemon/csm match further in my favor. And in that match they are light years ahead of normal termies. Why? Because ws5 becomes a defensive stat to reduce incoming attacks, and forcing the whole army to strike at initiative 1 in 2 feet square is fantastic. It allows 4 models including draigo to teleport into centerfield and dominate against an entire army.

 

 

 

There is no such thing as a "good" eldar player, hense why i quit player them last year afew months into the new dex, like i said, they will still die like normal terms to massed shooting or double STR weps, that's no even including CC, a power first on a SM Sergent will one shot a Paladin, not that anyone runes them just saying for example, or one shot from a Demo cannon? :P Like i said dude, i respect what your saying, and i will try to give them another shot, but i just think that they can be killed far far to easily and at your opponents leisure before they cause any real problems, also they can get so easily tarpitted and whittled down something that yes could still happen to terms but, once again youd have another bunch of them running about dong damage so losing one to a tarpit wouldn't be as bad