Brother Captain and Paladin box questions

[Reclusiarch Darius]

I believe there are more than a few instances where paladins are better than nilla termies. The smaller unit size with nearly identical damage output is valuable especially for DS into clogged areas and for resisting blast/template weaponry or gaining cover for the unit from terrain. Adding +1 attack and/or FNP to ICs like draigo and libbys is obviously good and worth the 20 pts by itself. Finally the dangerous terrain bubble from the banner while situational is great against daemons and any army utilizing summoning which broadens the spectrum a bit. 

 

Blast damage hey? You mean like Riptides intercepting you? Because while losing a GKT combat squad automatically as the tax to Deepstrike is annoying, losing your Paladin squad is game-changing. I'm ignoring stuff like attaching Draigo or an Allied storm shield Libby, but my point still stands. Paladins getting vaped before they even cast powers or shoot is punishing. 

As far as ID problems, paladins are obviously more susceptible to S8+ of the ap2 variety. However draigo can mitigate that to an extent. Its also worth noting that attracting S8 away from NDKs isn't a complete loss either since these weapons are in limited supply and neary always low volume.

 

Plasma does horrible things to Dreadknights, shooting them with higher Strength than 7 is a waste of time because you need either AP2 or a tonne of shots (T6 and 2+ save is pretty obnoxious, just ask Riptides). Demolisher cannon etc are in the same boat, shooting DK's isn't a great idea, but nuking your overpriced super-Termie squad is very attractive.

When evaluating paladins we should also consider other weaponry that exists, that of the strength 4 thru 7 or even X variety at ap2. I'm thinking specifically of plasma and all xenos plasma equivalents, all grav weaponry, all rending and ghetto rending (bladestorm/monofilament), D-scythes, sun cannons, disi cannons, and probably more. Basically all the common high rate of fire ap2 weapons of the non ID variety. Against these weapons the paladins come out ahead of GKTs by a large margin due to multi wound and FNP. 

 

Wraith weaponry inflicts instant death...so I don't think Paladins would like being shot by them. Paladins are more durable to anti-infantry, but that's not the point. You pay pretty close to 2x GKT to do that. I'd honestly prefer two GKT squads to a single Paladins squad. More threat projection, more firepower dilution, and losing either one isn't as painful as losing the one Paladin squad. 

To take it a little further lets consider eldar for example, or daemons or crons or even WS bikers. All higher end competitive armies which lack in the S8 ap2 department (I'm not talking theoretic builds but actual common accepted builds). Against these armies paladins seem to be well worth the investment.

 

Crons have Doomsday Ark, and LanceTeks. 

Eldar have Fire Dragons, wraith weaponry, S10 blasts on their Wraithknight

White Scars are not a tourney build, but even in that instance, melta is a pretty common sight on Biker squads (its more reliable against vehicles, which are becoming a problem again in the meta). 

CSM have Forgefiends and Obliterators. 

Tau will vape your Paladins before they even cast powers or shoot. Riptides in normal lists and Farsight lists are both able to do that (they counter Deepstrike behind you with no scatter and fire a bajillion fusion and plasma shots into you, at an angle Draigo can't tank. It's pretty disgusting). 

I don't agree that we simply destroy daemons. I thought we would but after quite a few games against them its been an absolute slugfest every time. They have tons of tools against us too not the least of which is just spamming screamers and heralds. Most games I play see the daemon player with over 25 WC at some point. I do well just sayin..

 

Daemons completely outgun us in the Psychic phase, but that's their only advantage. If we turn on 'Force' they're utterly screwed. 'Preferred Enemy' is very underrated, it'll save you so much in the matchup (its pretty close to free 'Prescience', but it also triggers on wound rolls). Gatling psilencers are probably broken as hell against Daemons, as you turn on 'Force' and then melt that DogStar or ScreamerStar into mush (after 'Banishment' stacking to ensure their invul is 6+). Princes and GD's are up the river with no paddle as well, as you vape them before they can charge (they have to land from Zooming around first). Grinders present a problem, but you just apply Dreadknight to them and they go away. 

 

I can't think of any time I'd actually worry about a Daemon army. They're so hard countered by us its beyond a joke. If we weren't some also-ran dataslate travesty at the moment, Daemons wouldn't even place in tourneys, because we'd gate them out. 

[Brom MKIV]

Damn your logik!

 

Seriously, I'm not trying to argue that paladins are top of the food chain here. If I wanted that I'd just be running double ravens 3-4 dreadknights and min tda troops plus libbys. 

 

Too much theory hammer is going into this fellas. C'mon DD arks? Lanceteks.. maaaaybe but most people I know are running with 4 shot haywire gunz atm.

 

I'll try em if they are completely unpayable I'll return to more GKTs.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Seriously, I'm not trying to argue that paladins are top of the food chain here. If I wanted that I'd just be running double ravens 3-4 dreadknights and min tda troops plus libbys. 

 

 

It's not even that man. It's that taking Paladins is functionally worse than every other option you have. Except maybe Purgators. 

 

Too much theory hammer is going into this fellas. C'mon DD arks? Lanceteks.. maaaaybe but most people I know are running with 4 shot haywire gunz atm.

 

 

They're not as rare as you think, the reason haywire Cypteks are in vogue is because they do horrible things to Knight-Titans and other high AV vehicles. I was pointing out they have the tools to demolish Paladins, and they're not on some cornercase obscure unit (Doomsday Arks are great at killing Terminators, Wraithguard and other heavy infantry, LanceTeks blow up vehicles very efficiently etc). 

 

I'll try em if they are completely unpayable I'll return to more GKTs.

 

 

Its worth trying. If you can get Draigo to tank damage, Paladins live a lot longer, but the problem is he's a Lord of War and he's almost a LR in price. So you end up spending almost as much keeping your Paladins alive as you do on them. 

 

The big issue with them is their price. If they were 45, or 50 with free nemesis upgrades, I'd consider them a lot more (two psycannons per squad is a big deal). 

[Brom MKIV]

OK so suffice to say I'm off the paladin train. Next up... mechanized purifiers.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

With mech Purifiers, I'd advise not :P

 

Okay okay. But take double NSF, so you have two Fortification slots. Then take two VSG with max additional shields. So you have 6x AV12 shield layers for the enemy to burn through before they can hurt the Rhinos. 

[Brom MKIV]

With mech Purifiers, I'd advise not

Okay okay. But take double NSF, so you have two Fortification slots. Then take two VSG with max additional shields. So you have 6x AV12 shield layers for the enemy to burn through before they can hurt the Rhinos.

Damn your logic RD! Lolz.

Seriously I'm exploring some less conventional options here lately, and while I've never really been a fan of rhinos in the past I think they might be valuable to my GK. Reason is I want cheap expendable ways to cap objectives (when it matters like in maelstrom), and they allow purifiers to start on the board presenting multiple threats to draw fire from NDKs. Each rhino is barely more than the cost of a single purifier.

So the basic idea I'm working on is deploying 3-4 x 5 purifiers in dozer blade rhinos inside ruins to start since we play with an abundance of terrain. Supported by multiple GKTs and NDKs teleporting and shunting and the rhinos potentially buffed by shrouding they become quite durable to most fire and lower priority to the immediate threats. Plus they bring all the usual bennies that cheap transports provide.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Seriously I'm exploring some less conventional options here lately, and while I've never really been a fan of rhinos in the past I think they might be valuable to my GK. Reason is I want cheap expendable ways to cap objectives (when it matters like in maelstrom), and they allow purifiers to start on the board presenting multiple threats to draw fire from NDKs. Each rhino is barely more than the cost of a single purifier.

 

The problem is dying Turn 1. AV11 is just paper mache to most lists these days, its depressing how quickly you'll be stripped of HP. Immobilise and Stunned are also issues, should they not just kill you outright. Meanwhile, Ravens fly above all that garbage, force Skyfire or Snap Shots, have an Assault Ramp, immensely better anti-tank firepower (which we desperately lack)...

 

A Raven is of course about 5 times as expensive, but its for a good reason .

 

Even AM are kinda on the fence with their mech, and they have AV12 frontal and camo-netting (and a fairly static game plan). The other thing they have is critical mass, whereas you'll only field 2-3 Rhino chassis at most, if at all. It makes it way too easy to just focus them down when you only have a handful, as opposed to the motor pool AM can amass. 

[Brom MKIV]

While I agree with those points a rhino still requires the same bullets that would often be directed against dreadknights instead. Only they are much cheaper.

In an army where the cheapest unit outside of rhinos/RB is a 110 pt strike squad I feel they hold some value. Possibly more so empty. I do have a storm raven in this conceptual list too btw, so its not mutually exclusive and brings the option to deploy by bird situation dependent.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

While I agree with those points a rhino still requires the same bullets that would often be directed against dreadknights instead. Only they are much cheaper.

 

 

Nope. S6/7 spam feels like a light massage to a DK (only wounding on 4+ or 3+ and a 2+ save to contend with, believe me I've eaten entire armies worth of AP3- and not even lost a wound, its absurd). People won't be pointing serious anti-tank at Rhinos anymore due to 7th damage table, as even melta only nukes it on a 5+. But ripping HP off a vehicle is much easier than causing wounds to a Monstrous Creature these days (shrug) I guess they want to sell monster kits to every faction. 

In an army where the cheapest unit outside of rhinos/RB is a 110 pt strike squad I feel they hold some value. Possibly more so empty. I do have a storm raven in this conceptual list too btw, so its not mutually exclusive and brings the option to deploy by bird situation dependent.

 

Yeah but there is a reason why Rhinos are so cheap (Razors are still overpriced, even without Hull Point garbage). The way they're supposed to work is they bum-rush for 2 turns to get you into charge range, then they can die. The problem is that in 7th (and in 6th), GW developed such a pathological hatred of mech armies that they nerfed them into the ground (after shamelessly shilling them in every codex update in 5th...they're fickle like that). Hull Points is the dumbest thing they've ever done with the vehicle rules. Drop Pods are superior because they do their job Turn 1 (in most lists that use them), they're AV12 (it doesn't sound like much but its huge), and you literally don't care if they die Turn 2, as they've done their job delivering cargo. 

 

I mean, I've suggested spamming void shields, but TBH you're just gonna end up spending a lot of points and effort making mech work in an army that relies heavily on its infantry presence to be effective. Our vehicles have zero synergy with us in 7th, outside of transportation. 'Psychic Pilot' meant when you paid for a Rhino you at least were getting some value (and Razorbacks with psybolts were quite excellent). 

 

Ravens and Allied Drop Pods are our best Purifier delivery systems (because lets be honest, its the only unit in the entire army that needs a transport, everyone else Deepstrikes Turn 1 or Shunts). 

[Brom MKIV]

I haven't found raven delivery to be that good or hiding a couple chassis to be that hard. Mech was too good before hull points. It's jink abd specifically eldar that are the problem.

 

Out of curiosity do you face mostly tau and eldar?

[Reclusiarch Darius]

I haven't found raven delivery to be that good or hiding a couple chassis to be that hard. Mech was too good before hull points. It's jink abd specifically eldar that are the problem. 

 

Mech was fine before HP came in and ruined it. People just needed to stop whining because their terrible homebrew lists fell apart to Chimeras or Razorbacks. Any list with a good distribution of firepower or Allies could deal with mech, even in 5th when it was at its zenith of power. Jink on Skimmers is retardedly strong., and that's a 7th edition problem. 

 

Out of curiosity do you face mostly tau and eldar? 

 

 

Not all the time, but I have at least two local Tau players (one of them is more into Nids these days) and a couple of Eldar as well. Even back in 5th I wasn't keen on mech Knights, I felt BA or IG always did it better, even Henchmen did it better. 

[Zeratul29]

Nah, only list that worked well for mech GK was purifiers list, but without psybolts it's hardly worth it. The old list was Crowe, coteaz, 6 squads of purifiers, 6 HB RB's and 2 dakka dreads for 1850. But now it's not anywhere near competitive.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Nah, only list that worked well for mech GK was purifiers list, but without psybolts it's hardly worth it. The old list was Crowe, coteaz, 6 squads of purifiers, 6 HB RB's and 2 dakka dreads for 1850. But now it's not anywhere near competitive. 

 

Pretty much. I found it boring and I shunned it during 5th.