'Fixing' Assault Troops - Not just BA

[Remtek]

Fleet and the ability to run (spread out a litte) after deepstriking while still being able to shoot. I don't think that sounds unreasonable. Theres always the chanse of rolling low still keeping them clustered. Starting on the table shouldt be that superior compared to DS.

[TheSauce]

Considering that GK got the ability to run and shoot after deep strike, that makes sense to me as well. With the current DoA you can deep strike into melta range pretty reliably, but I've lost quite a few assault squads to a single large blast afterwards.

 

Also, giving jump pack squads fleet (maybe only assault marines?) would be really great, and would jive with the "Quickening" BA primaris that's been making the rounds. Since fleet only works if the whole unit has it, it doesn't seem like too much of a stretch for me:

 

Assault squad (with fleet) + librarian (no fleet stock) = no fleet, but if you give that librarian fleet from the power then he can keep up with the rest of the squad and they all benefit again.

[knife&fork]

Just having one deep strike rule is the problem as deploying in tiny circle makes zero sense.

 

Originally you just scattered the first model and then deployed the rest of the unit in a normal formation. 

 

Why they even changed that is beyond me. 

[Memento Of Prospero]

Also makes tactical squads pretty redundant - bad idea.

 

Not at all. Tacticals have access to heavy weapons, sergeant combi weapons and transports. You would only need to the ability to remove jump packs for a rhino or pod.

 

Make a Jump pack HQ a requirement for scoring Jump packs is also another good way to balance this change.

 

Also, who used tactical squads in 5th anyways?

[Xenith]

Also, who used tactical squads in 5th anyways?

Me.

 

I love them, they're great! They got better in 6th with the combat squad rules and fast rhinos, and will get better in 7th with heavy flamers!

 

I would consider the option of removing the assault weapons from assault squads, and allow all of them to upgrade their pistols and combat weapons. I mean, a unit of 10 guys with jump packs and power weapons might seem scary on paper, but they still die like marines.

 

Vanguard squads then get the veteran statline, with the glorious intervention rule.

[TheHarrower]

That's what our JP marines currently do. I'd rather have the Raven Guard rule, or +1 initiative on the charge.

 

 

Snorri

 

I kinda agree. If it was me, I would give them fleet all the time and if they used their jump packs to charge all attacks (except for unwieldily ones) go at Initiative 10.

[SamaNagol]

This just in... Descent of Angels nowhere to be seen in Jump Pack entry in Deathstorm. Oh dear....

 

Now on to the original topic:

 

The problem with Jump Marines is the 'filler' models, and by that I mean the chainsword and bolt pistol wielding jabronis you buy to unlock 2 special weapons and combat squads, are just not worth their points. GW have always found it hard balancing power armoured models as the 3+ save 'premium' is often overcosted. They did well with Tactical Squads dropping to 14pts with free Chapter Tactic and of course the improvement to Rapid Fire.

 

Assault Marines which aren't Troops are pretty much dead. Especially in the C:SM book where they can't get the full range of special weapons.

 

Assault Marines in BA have utility. They can provide you mobile special weapons as well as mobile Objective Secured units which are important when playing Maelstrom Missions (which are becoming more and more widespread in competitive play). The thing with Assault Marines is.... they shouldn't be slaughtering things in combat. They should be picking and choosing their fights. And at the moment it is difficult for them to do that because A: they get shot real fast or B: they just dont hurt enough.

 

In 5th with our Priest we at least got to swing first at S5 before other MEQs and against basic Eldar or other I5+ troops the 3+ save and the 4+ FnP meant you would win through attrition.  In 6th and 7th you are just getting a superior strength, on the charge, for a turn. Oh and only a 5+ FnP against weight of attacks. Still mobile though, still kinda get to pick your fights.

 

You know what I would like to see? Jump Packs grant the model the Hit & Run special rule as long as every other model in the unit is equipped with one. (so you cant just attach one Jump Pack IC to a unit and confer the USR over) Bikes give Relentless which aids their battlefield role. Jump Packs just make a bog standard model that no one really wants to take move a bit faster. Hit & Run would allow Assault Marines to not only perform their proper role which is bouncing from lop sided conflict to lop sided conflict, it would also allow BA more use of that god awful Furious Charge USR they have as a Chapter trait. Vanguard Vets and Sanguinary Guard get to be your truly offensive units then. Assault Marines can bounce round picking up objectives, running away from fights they will lose and shooting the odd target with whatever special weapons they are loaded up with.

 

Hit & Run makes sense from a fluff viewpoint as well... don't wanna be here anymore... engage thrusters... get the hell outta there!
 

[Memento Of Prospero]

Descent of Angels ws never under jump packs. It was under our army special rules.

[SonOfThunder]

But the jump pack entry had a sentence like "All models with a jump pack get the Descent of Angels rule"...This was needed since only the units that had jump packs by default had the rule listed in the unit entry itself (a reclusiarch with a jump pack wouldn't have gotten DoA without that little sentence).

 

That sentence is now gone...from the wargear description in deathstorm. The codex might still have it if DoA has remained.

[SamaNagol]

Descent of Angels is present nowhere in the dataslate for Sanguinary Guard now. And it is not present anywhere in the Jump Pack description. So as it stands, it is gone as a standard rule.

[mysteriousmaskedmystery]

how are bikes harder to hit than guys literally leaping through the air?  JP should have jink while bikes keep relentless, total game changer and i think it would give both units a valid battle field role.  also, jet packs can be used in both move and assault phases, so should jump packs, that was just the most obvious nerf, it's not even subtle.

[Xenith]

how are bikes harder to hit than guys literally leaping through the air?  JP should have jink while bikes keep relentless, total game changer and i think it would give both units a valid battle field role.  also, jet packs can be used in both move and assault phases, so should jump packs, that was just the most obvious nerf, it's not even subtle.

As someone on a bike can, you know, actually jink, while someone with a jump pack makes graceful bounding leaps? Might be an interesting BA only rule if they received jink to represent their mastery.

[Praefectus Invictus]

Descent of Angels is present nowhere in the dataslate for Sanguinary Guard now. And it is not present anywhere in the Jump Pack description. So as it stands, it is gone as a standard rule.

 

It is now a Warlord Trait.

[knife&fork]

I sure hope not. Or at least that it works very differently from what we have now. 

 

A warlord trait that you might be forced to roll and can end up completely useless is bad news. 

[Tabgoi]

I think the biggest problem that assault marines have is the over abundance of Ap2 and AP3 shooting weapons.  Well, that and the entire Eldar Codex having rending.  Seriously, in the battle I just had today I think a Wraithknight took a leak on one of Vindis and rolled for rending.  I mean, against nids, tau, or guard our assault squads are brutal, just brutal.  I landed home three charges today and managed to get off HoW each time, so that's four hits a piece on the charge, and when dealing with lower armor saves you can really beat someone over the head.  Against other power armor, you would expect close combat to take longer to resolve, but the problem is with shooting you get instant gratification.  A squad of five wraith guard with almost always wipe out a ten man assault squad with their over watch.  Almost every large blast temple weapon is packing AP2, so it can just slaughter squads.  The shooting is just so dominant CC has almost no way to keep up, and if you give a bunch more AP to CC it just benefits the higher initiative armies even more.

 

I still think the biggest mistake they made in this game was moving plasma to AP2, and then giving everyone and their brother access to it.  But then again, I think terminator armor should be a 5 point upgrade.  Ten terminators in ruins have the exact same survivability as a ten man tac squad, and less than a scout squad if hit with a demolisher round, the necron blast, fire prisms, you get the idea, libby running smite, warp blast from nids, okay, I'll stop now.  The best way to fix assault would be to tone down the shooting to early editions levels, but there is no way that is going to happen.

 

Also, deep strike is stupid.  Not the concept, but the implementation.  Yeah, we are going to scatter more than guys with parachutes when we have directional thrusters and then all clump up so one good shot kills us all.  Ohh, and the units that most benefit from it will not be able to engage with their primary means of attack.  Good move.  Ohh, and they still are off the table for a good amount of time so your enemy can focus fire more on your foot sloggers, and you cannot possibly charge until round three, when you can potentially do it first or second turn if you start on the board.  Like I said, stupid, and I still do it because apparently I am not that bright.  Except with sternguards, though to be fair that has ended poorly for me every time I have done it against an army that is not Eldar.  Reducing scatter would be a SLIGHT help, letting us spread out a bit would help a LITTLE, letting us charge on the turn we arrive would actually make it a good option because while you have points off the board and your guys are getting extra shot up, at least you know when they finally decide to show up they are going to get something accomplished, other than distracting a Defiler for a round.  Seriously, if I could get a defiler to take at least two rounds to wipe my assault squads I would be happy.  Granted the Chaos players I play against really wish I would not keep taking a pair of vindis, but Fifth Company baby, master of the arsenal.  Yes, I realize the irony.