Shadrak Meduson

[Balthamal]

From what I can think of, and not an exhaustive list:

 

1) Shock. No matter how well equipped a fleet or how perfect their arrival may be, if they suddenly emerge from the Warp expecting to see the Istvaan System dominated by the fleets of the seven Legions sent to take Horus to task and instead find over half that fleet, and the fleets of the original traitors pounding the loyalists, they're going to be shocked by it, there's going to be some sort of pause to try and understand what's going on. There'll be attempts to confirm orders, establish lines of battle.Even if they emerged into the middle of the battle groups and opened up with everything, they wouldn't have enough guns to put down the enemy. Have to remember there's eight Gloriana Flagships there, not to mention the Iron Blood, they'd score some early points but then weight of fire would do for them.

 

2) Command structure. The Primarch was on the surface, neck deep in III Legion blood. Even if he was communicating real time with the fleet it' unlikely there'd be anything like enough coordination to be able to run the line of battle and get massive numbers of boots on the ground. I can't remember where it's quoted from but it's stated explicitly that once the ambush began in earnest large numbers of loyalist ships attempted to run exfil but were gunned down because the Iron Warriors had turned the dropsite into a fortified death trap. 

 

3) Ferrus dying. Pretty obvious really, most of the Iron Hands went nuts on the surface with him dead and it's not unlikely the same thing would have happened in orbit. Can't remember if it was actually written somewhere that some ship captains deliberately rammed their ships into the traitors to take as many as they could with them. Relatively few of the Legion took the long view of retribution and fled, most chose to fight till the last rather than retreat, certainly accounts for a higher death toll.

 

4) Planning. Lorgar, Perturabo, Curze and Alpharius knew that the Iron Hands fleet were incoming, it's almost certain that select portions of their fleets were tasked with nothing but the ambush of them when they did arrive. There'd be no pause, no hesitation, simply "target acquired: engaging"

[Marshal Rohr]

From what I can think of, and not an exhaustive list:

 

1) Shock. No matter how well equipped a fleet or how perfect their arrival may be, if they suddenly emerge from the Warp expecting to see the Istvaan System dominated by the fleets of the seven Legions sent to take Horus to task and instead find over half that fleet, and the fleets of the original traitors pounding the loyalists, they're going to be shocked by it, there's going to be some sort of pause to try and understand what's going on. There'll be attempts to confirm orders, establish lines of battle.Even if they emerged into the middle of the battle groups and opened up with everything, they wouldn't have enough guns to put down the enemy. Have to remember there's eight Gloriana Flagships there, not to mention the Iron Blood, they'd score some early points but then weight of fire would do for them.

 

2) Command structure. The Primarch was on the surface, neck deep in III Legion blood. Even if he was communicating real time with the fleet it' unlikely there'd be anything like enough coordination to be able to run the line of battle and get massive numbers of boots on the ground. I can't remember where it's quoted from but it's stated explicitly that once the ambush began in earnest large numbers of loyalist ships attempted to run exfil but were gunned down because the Iron Warriors had turned the dropsite into a fortified death trap.

 

3) Ferrus dying. Pretty obvious really, most of the Iron Hands went nuts on the surface with him dead and it's not unlikely the same thing would have happened in orbit. Can't remember if it was actually written somewhere that some ship captains deliberately rammed their ships into the traitors to take as many as they could with them. Relatively few of the Legion took the long view of retribution and fled, most chose to fight till the last rather than retreat, certainly accounts for a higher death toll.

 

4) Planning. Lorgar, Perturabo, Curze and Alpharius knew that the Iron Hands fleet were incoming, it's almost certain that select portions of their fleets were tasked with nothing but the ambush of them when they did arrive. There'd be no pause, no hesitation, simply "target acquired: engaging"

But that's all included in my point. It takes an exceptionally long time to go from systems edge to core. Much longer than Isstvan played out. You're not looking at the IH fleet even playing a role in the battle until weeks/months (depending on established in-universe maximum ship speed) later. It takes what? Two years to get to Mars now, and they just now got a color picture of Pluto. How long would it take a 20km long battleship to move from Pluto to Mars? Sure engines are faster (the campanile accelerated to half light speed in seconds) but even then that was a small fleet tender, not a battleship.

[Daemon2027]

The Hands Elect are:

 

Dalcoth (Raven Guard Captain)

Nuros (Senior Legionary XVIII Salamanders Legion)

Augos Lumak (Iron Hands Avernii Clan Company Captain)

Lars Mechosa (Iron Hands Sorrgol Clan Company Captain)

 

The four of them are chosen by Meduson to be the 'four quarters' of his Hand Elect, until such time as Iron-Father Jebez Aug was well enough to resume his duties as Meduson's Hand Elect. Meduson initially refers to them as his Mournival, but then decides that he dislikes the term and that instead they will simply be the 'four quarters' of his Hand Elect.

 

Thanks for the info, I don't want to take the subject off subject. It's nice to see the Shattered Legions getting a representation, maybe we will see them become a more cohesive force.

[Iron Hands Fanatic]

30K-ish escaped. That's my point. So one clan, 10K-ish made planet fall, but the rest showed up after the fighting began and still got beat down? How did the most coherent body of loyalist ships get ambushed like that? Why were they unable to perform and extraction? How did the traitors take out the entire fleet of the sallies and ravens quick enough to just sweep aside a gigantic fleet of Iron Hands that showed up together on their flank?

 

It's worth noting that according to Massacre, 40,000 Iron Hands weren't even involved with Isstvan V, having not been a component of the 52nd expeditionary fleet - so with the 10,000 Legionaries who actually made planetfall basically wiped out, you've got approx. 63,000 Iron Hands making up the 2nd wave, of which 1/2 to 2/3 probably survive.

 

With anywhere from 70,000 to 80,000 Iron Hands comprising the Legion after Isstvan, it's not surprising that the majority of Iron Lords will have survived - it's unlikely that the components of other Clans which accompanied the Avernii vanguard will have contained higher command echelons, considering a] space on the transports was limited , b] having a single, dominant command structure (that of the Avernii Clan) would have been advantageous, and c] the main bodies of such Clans will have been in the following 2nd wave. Plus, it's more likely that the largest vessels will have survived the void-battle, so the Clans' flagships (containing their command structures) will probably have formed a significant chunk of the X^th Legion's surviving fleet.  

[Anvilarium]

I was going to add my 2c to this, but Iron Hands Fanatic seems to have read my mind and typed out my thoughts word for word

- One full third of the Iron Hands Legion simply was not there. They were attached to other fleets around the galaxy.

- Of the rest, only Avernii clan, along with Ferrus and a few other Clan specialists made planetfall

- The other 60,000-odd Iron Hands arrived later, and tried to organise an extraction for the survivors on Isstvan V, but were unable to achieve much as there was the combined fleet of Avernii, Salamanders, and the Raven Guard, plus seven and a half Traitor Legions (a large chunk of the Iron Warriors fleet was engaged with the Imperial Fists fleet in the Phall System) engaged in brutal close quarters fighting in the upper and lower orbits of Isstvan V and there was no way through. The planetside traitors also did everything they could to ensure that no extraction from the surface was possible for the Loyalists. So the Iron Hands fleet did what they could, and then retreated along with the remnants of the other two Loyalist Legions.

- It is stated in Massacre that out of the three Loyalist Legions at the Dropsite Massacre, the Iron Hands had the largest remaining number of Legionaries after the dust had settled, even after a number of them deserted to carry on their own crusades of vengeance/went to find the Keys of Hel/went completely insane out of grief.

Also, in answer to Marshal Rohr's point: In Massacre it states that the initial wave of Loyalists ships (Raven Guard & Salamanders Fleets, with Ferrus' flagship at the forefront) that attacked Isstvan V translated into the Isstvan system in very close proximity to Isstvan V. Close enough that their arrival was impossible to hide from the Traitors on the surface. Shock and awe was the name of the day for the Loyalists, not sneaky sneaky gliding in from the System's edge. The subsequent waves of Iron Hands ships were in warp transit en route to Isstvan at this time and therefore unable to receive/send communications. They also translated in close proximity to Isstvan V as per their Primarch's orders, and not at the System's edge.

[Marshal Rohr]

My point isn't that they should've snuck in, it's that the realities of space travel would prevent jumping directly above the 5th planet of a system. The warp is just hyperspace, but with daemons in it, so moving from point A to B in the galaxy is still a matter of wormhole manipulation. It would be too dangerous to attempt jumping anywhere but the edges of a system because of gravitational forces, stellar debris, planetoids, and planetary movements. Especially for a massive fleet traveling together.

 

It's not about in-universe tactics or ability. It's about realistically portraying space.

 

Contrary to what the studio believes, it is entirely possible to have a universe with daemons made of emotion and psychic powers being real, and portraying the details of interstellar civilization realistically.

[Conn Eremon]

That's one of those things that is often noted (in fact, I think they name it, the Something Point), but also often ignored in-universe for the sake of expediency over risk. In this case, it was damn the risks.

 

But if by hyperspace you mean Star Wars, then nah, the two operate under very different rules and governing technologies. Only real comparison is that they are both FTL utilizing something beyond realspace.

[Marshal Rohr]

The Mandeville Point. Hyperspace is the multi-dimensional bulk that exists outside the 3-dimensional perceptions of human beings. It can also be referred to as the 'bulk'. In-universe it is the warp. The only way to travel faster than light is to use a wormhole to move through the bulk, solving the problem of navigation by the astronomican, which does not require any dimensional perception to see, only the ability to psychically recognize it and use it orient yourself. Warp Routes are established 'rivers' within the bulk and are basically the joining of multiple wormholes, allowing for consistent and relatively safe travel through hyperspace. 

 

 

Imagine that the warp is the space in between the folded piece of paper representing the 'surface' of space time in Event Horizon when he's describing wormholes. 

 

 

Conn: Here is a simplified sketch of how wormholes and black holes look. The ribbon is space-time, everything else is hyperspace. 

 

http://images.mreadz.com/339/338999/32.jpeg

[Conn Eremon]

That's not a completely inaccurate view of the Warp, but there are things off with it. For one thing, it's not about travel through established tunnels, as the means of travel involves the creation of an entrance and an exit point. To keep the wormhole comparison, Warp travel creates wormholes from one reality to another. The path of the ship connects the folds of realspace, but not the wormhole. The wormholes only connect one reality to another. Realspace to the Warp, Warp to realspace, two wormholes.

[Marshal Rohr]

That's not a completely inaccurate view of the Warp, but there are things off with it. For one thing, it's not about travel through established tunnels, as the means of travel involves the creation of an entrance and an exit point. To keep the wormhole comparison, Warp travel creates wormholes from one reality to another. The path of the ship connects the folds of realspace, but not the wormhole. The wormholes only connect one reality to another. Realspace to the Warp, Warp to realspace, two wormholes.

Ah, so you're saying it simply tears a rift into hyperspace, and then back into reality. Gotcha. That's actually something I hadn't considered. I like it. :D

[Anvilarium]

Warp travel isn't like travelling through wormholes. It's more like piloting a submarine, where real space is the surface and the warp is the turbulent ocean beneath the surface. There are tides, currents and eddies under the surface, and sometimes they break out into whirlpools on the surface (warp storms). When a ship enters the warp, it submerges beneath the surface and travels the oceanic currents and tides to resurface at another place. Instead of being made of water however, this ocean (warp space) is made of raw emotional psychic energy.

 

In the 40k universe, the Mandeville Point is considered the safest point for a ship/ships to enter/exit the warp. However it is far from the only entry/exit point. The Isstvan invasion fleet took a massive risk entering realspace so close to Isstvan V, but they were able to do so successfully.

 

It could also be postulated that this success was due to the Traitor's pacts with Chaos, which enabled them to ensure that the fleet made a successful translation to real space so close to Isstvan V. After all, the Traitors wanted the Loyalists to assault Isstvan V, and probably also wanted all the fleets to arrive quickly and safely to make sure that the other four Legions (Word Bearers, Night Lords, Alpha Legion and Iron Warriors) could arrive safely and in time to spring the trap on the Loyalists in order to crush them completely.

[Marshal Rohr]

Wouldn't it have made more sense for the traitors to want the warp gods to completely destroy the loyalists in transit?

[Anvilarium]

Wouldn't it have made more sense for the traitors to want the warp gods to completely destroy the loyalists in transit?

 

No, because then it would have been perceived as a natural accident. Don't forget - at this time most of the Imperium were completely unaware of the Primordial Annihliator. Only a very few were aware of the true dangers of the Warp (The Emperor, Magnus and Malcador the Sigilite). If four Legions were lost in the Warp, it would have just looked like a natural disaster.

 

The Traitors wanted the Imperium to know that they had taken a stand under the flag of Horus, and also show that they were a very real threat. Hence why they did their best to obliterate four Legions simultaneously (Iron Hands, Raven Guard & Salamanders at Isstvan V, and the Imperial Fists at Phall) in a very brutal way.

 

That sent a very powerful message back to Terra. A Warp Storm 'accident' would not have had the same impact.

[Iron Hands Fanatic]

Also, it took the ritual butchery of the Shadow Crusade to create the Ruinstorm - murdering entire populations across the 500 worlds in a very specific manner to manipulate the warp to such an effect

 

Yeah, the Traitors might have liked it if the Loyalist fleets were destroyed in the Warp, but Chaos doesn't really work like that - plus most of the Traitor Legions at the time were utterly oblivious to the Ruinous Powers. Just 'cos Horus wants the Warp to wreck some fleets doesn't mean it's gonna happen

[Anvilarium]

Also, it took the ritual butchery of the Shadow Crusade to create the Ruinstorm - murdering entire populations across the 500 worlds in a very specific manner to manipulate the warp to such an effect

 

Yeah, the Traitors might have liked it if the Loyalist fleets were destroyed in the Warp, but Chaos doesn't really work like that - plus most of the Traitor Legions at the time were utterly oblivious to the Ruinous Powers. Just 'cos Horus wants the Warp to wreck some fleets doesn't mean it's gonna happen

 

Good point - I hadn't even considered that!

[Marshal Rohr]

I'll concede the point, then. 

[Icarus1138]

Thanks everyone for the information from Meduson, that's good stuff and sounds very promising. The quality of character portrayal in the HH novels has been inconsistent to say the least and I think the Iron Hands have suffered more than most in that regard. It's good to hear we have a signature character that's not simply angry, intolerant, and spends his days thinking of how much better he'd be if he was a robot. Hopefully Meduson gets fleshed out a bit more (pun not intended) and FW treatment would be awesome.

[depthcharge12]

So when does he turn into Alpharius? ;)

[Icarus1138]

Can anyone with Meduson tell us about his appearance and equipment? I'd like to know for modeling purposes. Actually, the same info for his 4 assistants would be great as well.

[Marshal Rohr]

He's got a Terran Gladius and bolt pistol. Cybernetic left forearm. From the cover of the anthology he is in artificer mark 3 plate with no servo arm.

 

Also, because it needs mentioning these days, he's got hair.

[Anvilarium]

He's got a Terran Gladius and bolt pistol. Cybernetic left forearm. From the cover of the anthology he is in artificer mark 3 plate with no servo arm.

Also, because it needs mentioning these days, he's got hair.

He's also a Terran-born Marine. His original name was:

Shadrak Smyth

He was part of the Iron Tenth when they were reunited with Medusa and their Primarch, and in an effort to create solidarity with their Primarch and their Medusan Brethren, some of the Terran-born members of the Tenth Legion abandoned their Terran Surnames and took on Medusan-sounding surnames such as Meduson and Gorgonson.

It is mentioned by Meduson's chief apothecary (Gorgonson) that it is a good omen that Shadrak's original name came from the profession of Smiths (ie a blacksmith), and that it could be a sign that Shadrak is the one to 're-forge' the Shattered Legions into a new purpose.

It certainly seems that this is where the Shattered Legions storyline is currently heading.

And in that single stroke, Dan Abnett has explained away some of the cheesier sounding Iron Hands character names

[depthcharge12]

Heh.

 

The chief apothecary's name is Gorgonzola :P

[goosey_j]

So, people. Just got done reading 'The Serpent Beneath', where...  

 

 

Everyone's favourite merry men, the crew of the Sisypheum, are trying to track Alpharius, and in a whole bunch of coily plot twists end up getting played by said aforementioned Primarch who achieves this by wearing the face of Shadrak Meduson. 

 

He makes a comment of something along the lines of "That was real skin, you know" when he makes the reveal on who he is, soooo I guess what I'm asking is, is Shadrak Meduson dead? Was he killed off stage?

 

Chronologically speaking, we have don't know if he survived Dwell in Vengeful Spirit, but he doesn't really appear on stage in that novel either, so there's nothing explicitly stating that he was amongst the Iron Hands that die at the start of that novel either.

 

I really hope this isn't the case, because after they released that (awesome) Meduson anthology and fleshed out his character so well, it seems a shame to kill him off without ever showing us, the reader, what happened to him. Especially when they set up that whole grudge match scenario with him and Tybalt Marr.

 

[Memento Of Prospero]

And that's why I hate their portrayal of the Alpha Legion. They somehow always win.

[Jareddm]

It's been telegraphed pretty hard at this point that the only people who are going to legitimately best the Alpha Legion, is the Alpha Legion. They're clearly their own worst enemy and the civil war that's coming within their ranks is most likely going to take them out of the Heresy.