Sanguinary Guard, Are they now viable?

[Jolemai]

Depending on upgrade restrictions, we may fins the sweet spot to be 7-8 members...

[Morticon]

Exactly what i'm thinking.  I'm already painting up another 3! 

[knife&fork]

 

Basically a 2+ save means you will fail half as many saves as a 3+ save - that means for the SG to be worthwhile, they need to be at a general max, twice as expensive than other jumpers for consideration.

 

 

It's a common way to look at it, but it doesn't take into consideration damage output or how common AP1-2 has become. Quite often you see more AP1-2 than AP3 in a list. If we always got our saves then tactical terminators for example wouldn't compare so poorly to PA alternatives. Cover ignoring AP1-2 weapons aren't that common, but an aggressive unit like sanguinary guard can't count on cover saves for backup.

 

 

However, at 165 base and less expensive upgrades they are something you can take just for fun without having to build around them, or lose out too much somewhere else. 

[d@n]

a points drop and increase in squad size has made thunder wolves far more viable, it should do the same for sang guard

[knife&fork]

a points drop and increase in squad size has made thunder wolves far more viable, it should do the same for sang guard

 

Cost reductions and increased squad size is a buff for any unit, wouldn't you say? 

 

The point is more if these changes actually will push the Sanguinary guard into 'good' territory. 

 

One thing I haven't seen anyone mention yet is that Sanguinary guard are one of the marines units that will definitely get a net gain by the new 32 mm bases. 

They don't have the numbers to suffer from lost ranks and now it's less likely that an entire squad can be killed by a small AP2 blast. 

[d@n]

but you may get bases covered by the blast that wouldnt of been with the smaller bases. 

[Karhedron]

One thing I haven't seen anyone mention yet is that Sanguinary guard are one of the marines units that will definitely get a net gain by the new 32 mm bases.

They don't have the numbers to suffer from lost ranks and now it's less likely that an entire squad can be killed by a small AP2 blast.

I have observed that the effect of base size tends to be mixed. On the one hand, infantry on larger bases are less vulnerable to area effect weapons but only if they are deployed to make use of the increased distance. Spacing your models widely apart may not always be possible due to terrain. Also, spreading out may expose you to more firepower than necessary or leave some of your models struggling to get into assault and contribute their attacks.

 

My gut feeling after years of playing (and still having metal Termies and Wraithguard on 25mm bases) is that the pros and cons of different base sizes tend to balance out over all. The main advantage of this update is the announcement by GW that it is still legal to field models on the bases they were originally supplied with so no one will roll their eyes at my vintage model.

[knife&fork]

but you may get bases covered by the blast that wouldnt of been with the smaller bases. 

 

Indirectly, yes, since the unit has a larger footprint on the board. Directly no, since the blast is less likely to get as many models under the template. The increased chance of the unit getting hit is offset by making it less likely to have multiple models under the template.  

 

The vulnerability to low AP blasts comes from being hit multiple times by a single shot, not being hit in the first place.

[TheSauce]

I really hope the chapter banner is still +1 attack. That would make a unit of 10 SG super scary!

 

I also wonder they'll keep master-crafted on all their weapons. It makes sense in the fluff, but it's such a pain to roll each model's attacks separately.

 

that said, I have 10 SG that I'll definitely try to run in my lists!

[Morticon]

 

 

Basically a 2+ save means you will fail half as many saves as a 3+ save - that means for the SG to be worthwhile, they need to be at a general max, twice as expensive than other jumpers for consideration.

 

 

It's a common way to look at it, but it doesn't take into consideration damage output or how common AP1-2 has become. Quite often you see more AP1-2 than AP3 in a list. If we always got our saves then tactical terminators for example wouldn't compare so poorly to PA alternatives. Cover ignoring AP1-2 weapons aren't that common, but an aggressive unit like sanguinary guard can't count on cover saves for backup.

 

 

However, at 165 base and less expensive upgrades they are something you can take just for fun without having to build around them, or lose out too much somewhere else. 

 

 

I think DA powerfield gonna be our friends :P

[Remtek]

As very astute members have mentioned, will have to wait and see what else is in the book - buuuuuut - here's how i work the math.

 

Basically a 2+ save means you will fail half as many saves as a 3+ save - that means for the SG to be worthwhile, they need to be at a general max, twice as expensive than other jumpers for consideration.

 

While their wargear should balance or weigh in on that consideration strongly, its no point if they dont make it into combat with enough bodies to actually do something. 

 

If the RAS are 17ppm as per C:SM, then 33 is an exceptional deal considering the wargear we get in addition to that. 

 

Depending on how I can build them in, I think they will make a "return" to my army (i've literally only used them 2 or 3 times).

 

My MEQ are many times dying to AP1-2 Templates/Shots. I never see ML's anymore (except for Orks) which SG can deal with well. Killing RAS with these weapons is not that amazing for the opponent, but with SG it becomes pretty cost effective shooting them with LasCannons for example.

 

Vs. Mixed dmg they are still in second to last place (100 bolter shots, 20plasma, 10melta)

For full details:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1G-Jodghn_uVJPnDefVboDPK2B5dEBj668t5zywlY-l8/edit?usp=sharing

 

 

They do have better weapons than alot of the units and can move 12", but in terms of survivability they are still much worse than our 19 point RAS. 

 

These statistics are not perfect, but they do generally give an impression on how tough a model is per point. 

 

Edit: Added the new JP DC and 17 point RAS (speculation)

[Pathstrider]

The one thing that would make them viable for me.... having something else other than master crafted weapons so I could roll all their dice at once....

[Shaezus]

^ this.

 

Preffered enemy or hatred would be about right.

[shandwen]

They better get either preferred enemy or +1 ws in place of master crafted. Just imagine the pain of a ten man squad. Rolling. Each. Guy. By. His. Self.

[Joasht]

With the new leaked rules for the Sanguinary Priest and detachment (i.e. +1 WS, +1 I on the charge), coupled with the point reduction and permanent Furious Charge, I think it truly is the golden age for Sanguinary Guard.

[ElectricPaladin]

With the new leaked rules for the Sanguinary Priest and detachment (i.e. +1 WS, +1 I on the charge), coupled with the point reduction and permanent Furious Charge, I think it truly is the golden age for Sanguinary Guard.

Yeah! It's a real shame that GW decided to give us a new sanguinary priest model who lacks a jump pack and wouldn't look too great with one slapped on (I think that awesome frill thing would get in the way). Luckily I'm sure everyone has got at least one, maybe two jump priests kicking around...

Wow. Hey. Sanguinary guard, jump priest, jump chaplain (maybe, maybe not, depends on what glaives encarmine do now), ML 2 jump librarian rocking the Sanguinary Discipline, jump captain with power lance. Kill every motherer in the room.

[Praefectus Invictus]

no. 9 Sang guard, Dante, Ml2 jump libby with the power that makes enemies hit you on 6's, and a jump priest.

 

*enter the Dantestar!*

 

EDIT: just remembered I think the power is called invisibility

[Drunken Angel]

On their own Sanguinary guard will be great for hunting nuisance units like Vehicles, Walkers, Devastators, and depleted squads.  They would be a good counter assault units in any list.

 

My Sang Guard would die to massed fire more often than high strength low AP fire.   Theres still a pile of massed fire around the meta, one extra model will help. 

 

At 165 pts and the ability to mix and match the weapon load out I like Sanguinary Guard a lot.  You could put Invis on them but its expensive and probably better on Death Company.

 

As far as Invisibilty goes take 2 Libbies give them jump packs and a dozen tooled up jump pack Death Company, theres your death star about 500-600 pts.  DC will do that better.  

 

Sanguinary Guard with Dante seem a viable unit now but they are still a scalpel not a hammer.