Kranon's Helguard Dataslate

[Scribe]

I dont even know what that would look like, nothing in the CSM jumps at me for that?

[RolandTHTG]

I dont even know what that would look like, nothing in the CSM jumps at me for that?

I would love a Maulerfeind or Noise Marine formation. 

[incinerator950]

I dont even know what that would look like, nothing in the CSM jumps at me for that?

Spawntide, Mauler rush, Purge chem throwers on pms, NM noisewalls, Drake flights.

 

The list goes on.

[Prot]

I'm trying to figure out how I can use this formation in our typical battle forged environment in a Maelstrom scenario.... I can't. I also have only used the Helbrute formations so it is very easy in that case to create a 'legal' force org around that formation. This formation would be all encompassing, and I guess to make it battle forged I'd have to add an additional HQ, and 2 more troops thus making the whole thing rather difficult to get usage out of.

[ShinyRhino]

 

Can we also take the time to appreciate stubborn cultists that cause fear? Imagine.... Mark of Khorne cultists led by a Dark Apostle... *drools*

 

Use a helcult formation and/or a Dark Apostle from Crimson Slaughter and you have what I would consider, something much better.

 

 

 

 

I'll tell you one thing, this formation is a LOT better than the Dark Angel variant.

 

I've never used formations in 40K aside from the Helbrute stuff. Aside from squad size, what happens if you expand the list? Can it be made legal at any point level?

 

 

If you want to add guys that aren't on the list, you have to buy them from another detachment. If it is only a couple other units you want, you can easily add a allied detachment and use this lord as your Warlord. 

 

 

 

So we typically battle forged armies that may include formations IE: Helcult/Helbrutes. So I'm clear, none of these 'troops' will have objective secured then and this can't be a battle forged force org? Correct?

 

Can I use this lord to take Possessed and a few Chaos Marines to make it legit? Or do I need to take another HQ?

 

Also I guess the reality is that if I put more Crimson Slaughter into this formation, I have to keep track of which units are from the formation and which are not because the outside units WILL NOT count for the bonuses to being within 12".

 

Sounds confusing and silly. lol

 

 

"Battle Forged" does not grant Objective Secured. Battle Forged is a term that describes an army that consists of nothing but legal formations, be they Combined Arms, Allied, or otherwise. Taking two Krannon's Helguard formations is perfectly legal, and is Battle Forged, but unless the formation rules provide Objective Secured, you don't get that benefit solely for taking two legal formations.

[Scribe]

Indeed, battle forged and objective secured are not joined at the hip automatically.

[Nehekhare]

There are some interesting and competitive formations for chaos, but most of them are apocalypse formations. At this point, the difference is really just about the number of players per side. Although they may once have been created to manage bigger games, most of the special rules have been incorporated into "standart" 40k anyway. Playing 1on1 apoc makes for quick and easy games actually, while the formations are just as "balanced" as anything else.

 

a warpsmith with a pack of fiends that use his WS/BS

a cult of oblits and better mutilators

turn 1 heldrakes with perma-daemonforge

fearless legionnaires with eternal hatred

an army of chaos lords

outflanking bikers with a turbo-charge

soulgrinders charging after deepstrike 

[Slave to Darkness]

Something new for the Crimson Slaughter lot

 

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2014/12/40k-advent-day-4-chaos-marines-get-new.html

[Slave to Darkness]

Goin by someones comment on BoLS

 Its a formation (Consisting of the DV minis and the Crimson Slaughter expansion box)

FORMATION

 

• 1 Chaos Lord

• 1 unit of Chosen

• 1 unit of Chaos Terminators

• 2 units of Chaos Cultists

• 1 unit of Raptors

• 1 Chaos Land Raider

• 1 Helbrute

 

RESTRICTIONS

 

All units in this Formation must have the Chaos Space Marines Faction.

 

SPECIAL RULES

 

Fear, Stubborn.

 

Swarm of Phantasms: Enemy units that are within 12" of at least one unit from this Formation subtract 1 from their Leadership. Enemy units that are within 12" of at least two units from this Formation also subtract 1 from their Ballistic Skill, to a minimum of 1.

[Lord Asvaldir]

Unfortunately doesn't seem terribly usable to me. Sure the -1bs and ld is nice along with stubborn, and you could make those units work together but it's likely that you wouldn't want to take a few of those units. Then there's cost to consider, which is fairly large given how many units are in the formation. 

[brother_contagion]

Here's a list I was thinking about using with it (using the Black Legion supplement):

 

HQ

 

Chaos Lord (150pts): Bolt Pistol, Gift of mutation, Mark of Khorne, Melta bombs, Power Armour, Sigil of corruption, The SpineShiver Blade.
 

Elites

 

Chaos Terminator Squad (229pts): Terminator x4 with Power Axes & Combi-flamers, Terminator Champion with Combi-flamer & Power Ax. Dedicated Transport: Chaos Land Raider (240pts): Dirge caster, Dozer Blade, Searchlight, Smoke Launchers, 2x Sponson mounted Twin-linked Lascannons, Twin-Linked Heavy Bolter

 

Helbrute (135pts): Missile launcher w/ frag + krak, Twin-linked lascannon

Troops

 

Chaos Cultists (159pts): 29x Autogun, Champion's upgrade, 30x Squad models (champion included)

 

Chaos Cultists (159pts): 29x Autogun, Champion's upgrade, 30x Squad models (champion included)

 

Chosen (373pts): 8x Chosen, Icon of wrath, Mark of Khorne, Meltagun, 4x Replace all weapons w/ Twin Lightning Claws, Chosen Champion w/ Bolt Pistol, Bolter, Power Fist.

 

Fast Attack

 

Raptors (165pts): Mark of Nurgle, 2x Meltagun, 4x Raptor, 4x Bolt Pistol, 4x Close Combat Weapon, Raptor Champion w/ Bolt Pistol, Power Fist

 

Heavy Support

 

Chaos Land Raider (240pts): Dirge caster, Dozer Blade, Searchlight, Smoke Launchers, 2x Sponson mounted Twin-linked Lascannons, Twin-Linked Heavy Bolter

 

Total Points: 1850

 

One way how I'd plan to use the formation is to put the Chosen in the Land Raider with the Lord and both Land Raiders push up the field with the Raptors following behind and keeping the Cultists in the back on objectives with  Helbrute for support fire.

 

Not a bad casual list. I still lack that amount of Cultists and an additional Land Raider, but I've been wanting to get one more Land Raider and more Cultists anyways, so this could help encourage me to do so.

[Prot]

 

 

Can we also take the time to appreciate stubborn cultists that cause fear? Imagine.... Mark of Khorne cultists led by a Dark Apostle... *drools*

 

Use a helcult formation and/or a Dark Apostle from Crimson Slaughter and you have what I would consider, something much better.

 

 

 

 

I'll tell you one thing, this formation is a LOT better than the Dark Angel variant.

 

I've never used formations in 40K aside from the Helbrute stuff. Aside from squad size, what happens if you expand the list? Can it be made legal at any point level?

 

 

If you want to add guys that aren't on the list, you have to buy them from another detachment. If it is only a couple other units you want, you can easily add a allied detachment and use this lord as your Warlord. 

 

 

 

So we typically battle forged armies that may include formations IE: Helcult/Helbrutes. So I'm clear, none of these 'troops' will have objective secured then and this can't be a battle forged force org? Correct?

 

Can I use this lord to take Possessed and a few Chaos Marines to make it legit? Or do I need to take another HQ?

 

Also I guess the reality is that if I put more Crimson Slaughter into this formation, I have to keep track of which units are from the formation and which are not because the outside units WILL NOT count for the bonuses to being within 12".

 

Sounds confusing and silly. lol

 

 

"Battle Forged" does not grant Objective Secured. Battle Forged is a term that describes an army that consists of nothing but legal formations, be they Combined Arms, Allied, or otherwise. Taking two Krannon's Helguard formations is perfectly legal, and is Battle Forged, but unless the formation rules provide Objective Secured, you don't get that benefit solely for taking two legal formations.

 

 

 

But you know what I'm getting at right? I don't want to play a formation so big that it's very hard to include Objective Secured units.

 

Are you saying  I used the term Battle Forged incorrectly? If so, I'm unaware of the word I should be using for: An army that contains a 'normal' force org including the minimum 2 troops which do have objective secured.

 

^whatever that is called, that is what we typically play. We do use formations as well but very small so they don't inhibit the ability take what I describe above as well.

 

This formation is almost too big IMO. I'm not sure it would work in my case where I'd be forced to slay every opponent's troop on an objective.

[Scribe]

Perhaps a topic for another thread. Are folks facing massed objective secured? I know I havent been.

[Prot]

Actually as weird as it sounds we play Maelstrom exclusively because we got bored of the old 'pew pew' sit and shoot kill games.

 

And as a result Objective Secured is quite strong, and kind of forces a more... 'traditional' army build. This is why I really am having trouble finding use for the formation. We play 1850 and I can get the formation comfortably down to 980ish points.

 

So I made an allied detachment for the formation that includes objective secured Cultist squads, lead by a Dark Apostle (from Crimson Slaughter) and a Aegis quad gun, plus a Heldrake, and a few points to play with... for a heavy slot... might be a Maulerfiend, or Oblits behind the wall. Not sure if it will work. But rushing the likes of IG with -1 BS, and -1 Leadership for fear checks could be cool... with 40 autopistol Cultists pushing up firing as well... I don't know if it's workable but I may try it.

[Scribe]

We have been doing a lot of the maelstrom as well, and have just gone the other direction. The army I've retired is Daemon/CSM/Helcult, and I was just killing everything instead of worrying about troops. It was consistently handling most troop heavy lists to the point of making me put it aside to shake things up with a upcoming Black Legion list. :]

[Prot]

Okay I am trying to make Kranon's Helguard work for a game this weekend. (No idea what I'll be facing)

 

Anyone want to have a gander at the list?  It's a bit rough, and could use input.

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/300061-1850-maelstrom-using-kranons-helguard-formation-help/

[ShinyRhino]

Prot, you are referring to "Combined Arms Detachments." 1HQ, 2 Troops, etc etc. Grants ObSec, and a reroll of Warlord trait. Allied Detachments are 1HQ, 1 Troop, cannot contain your warlord, grants ObSec.

[Sheesh Mode]

This looks like a formation to ally with Renegades and Heretics.

[Strazhakov]

Wouldn't Be'lakor and Telepathy in general fit well with this formation? Fear everywhere and -1Ld seems quite nice.

[Prot]

I had a so-so run with it. I wouldn't use it again but it  is okay. I just think it's forcing too many units in the mix.

[Vorenus]

Prot, will you be posting a BatRep at some point?

 

For myself, I probably won't use this formation.  I am becoming increasingly disinterested in formations in general.  The formations seem far too restrictive to build a creative list, and so the players I've seen who use the formations are doing so just to get he special rules associated with that formation.  I used to play A LOT of Apocalypse games, and formations fit well into that style of big battle, partly because the Apocalypse formations required quite a lot of models to satisfy the requirements (e.g., the First Company Veterans formation for Space Marines required over 100 models, not counting transports).  But for me at least I don't like the "feel" of formations in non-Apocalypse (i.e., regular WH40K) games.  It seems far too linear a way to build armies.  Formations become building blocks, and rather than build a list around the units in a codex, what I've seen is people who slap a couple of formations together and call it a day.  I've seen this especially with the new Space Wolves supplement and the Dark Eldar supplement, which are each chock full of formations.  (And don't get me started on the completely broken Tau Fire Support Cadre formation!)  I've played a Space Wolves player who described his army list as, "I took this formatinon, and then added this formation, and this third formation.  It's awesome!"  Not to me.  What happened to making really unique army lists?  I suppose that "formations" do sometimes fall under the category of "themed" lists, but they just seem so lazy and unoriginal to me.  And the fact that the only way to get the special upgrade rules is to take the formation is quite galling.  I don't mean to offend anyone here who regularly uses formations, but for me some of the magic of the game has been lost with the widespread use of formations. 

 

That said, I a still curious how this formation worked out for you, Prot, and I would love to read a BatRep.

 

v/r

 

--Vorenus

[Vorenus]

Wow, I think my previous post may have been my first "rant" post on the B&C.  What's up with that?  Ranting is not usually my style.  Must be because it's a Monday.