Having a difficult time putting togeather a list.

[Strata]

So as the title says, im having a rather difficult time at the moment putting together a list that i think could be viable to use, let alone be fun to play with. I want to use what i've already got sitting on my desk in front of me. So far i have 5 grey hunters built, 2 plasma pistols, and a plasma gun as their load out. 5 Terminators with a mix of storm shields, wolf claws, power weapons, storm bolter, and assault cannon. I still have one 5 armless bodies, another TDA pack in box, Wolf Pack in box, and Long Fangs in box.

 

I want to make use of the CoF supplement, and i've tried to make some lists, but i dont know, something just seems to be missing when it work it out. I've been running the ideas of a pack of seven wolf guard with a wolf lord, with a scattering of power weapons and shields, But i dont know if i should chuck in some AP2 with them or not.

 

I've even had the idea of a jump pack of wolf guard, all toting thunder hammers, expensive as hell it would be for sure.

 

But i cant see a if it would be a good idea to try and wedge in the grey hunters i already have built, pod them into the battle field maybe?

 

Then what about dealing with mass infantry? Do i rely on close combat to deal with them? I'm just not sure.

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

I'm in a similar boat, just with a ton more models to look at. In my experience, you want to stay out of close combat with anything that's not marines (C:SM and C:DA), Tau, or IG. Orks, DEldar, Eldar, and Nids will mess you up in CC, either through mass numbers of attacks and/or hitting first/higher WS. C:BA are probably on par in CC, or slightly better. I've had some success, using assaults defensively, maximizing the time I spend shooting at the enemy, and then eating the charge, since we're just as good first turn of combat charging as we are defending (see counter-attack), it also gives you more chances to whittle your opponent down with the overwatch. 

 

TH/SS Jump Guard is a good tank hunter, expensive, yes but very well worth it. Consider TWC for that role as well. 

 

Some advice I was given, tailor a unit for a specific role. Either kit them for close combat, or, for ranged combat, but not both. if you multi purpose units they end up costing a ton of points, and do neither role very well. 

 

For shooty wolf guard, consider storm bolters instead of regular boltguns, you put out 2 shots at max range instead of 1, and it's an assault weapon, so you can still charge after shooting, if you have taken them down to manageable numbers. It's a worthwhile 5 points. And think about it, with stormbolters, a 5 man squad can pump out 10 shots, which isn't bad when you consider how many shots you pump out of a grey hunter squad at max range. Sure 1-2 of them might be S7 AP2, but lets be honest, how often do you actually end up needing AP2 weapons against basic enemy infantry? So right there is a way to keep your firepower up to deal with infantry while keeping with the CoF theme.

 

As for Drop Podding troops, I love drop pods, and use them frequently. I have enough models to run three WG Thunderstrikes. 2 of which come in turn 1, via drop pod assault, so that's four units on the table first turn wherever you want them.

 

I'm trying to work out an Air Assault themed Space Wolves force, that mostly comes in out of deep strike. 

 

I'm no expert in list building. I've probably built 1000 space wolves lists, and I've learned 1000 ways on how not to do it. 

 

I'm still new to this, and I find it helps to have a sounding board to bounce ideas around, So we're gonna learn it together.

[Z00Z]

I'm in a similar boat, just with a ton more models to look at. In my experience, you want to stay out of close combat with anything that's not marines (C:SM and C:DA), Tau, or IG. Orks, DEldar, Eldar, and Nids will mess you up in CC, either through mass numbers of attacks and/or hitting first/higher WS. C:BA are probably on par in CC, or slightly better. I've had some success, using assaults defensively, maximizing the time I spend shooting at the enemy, and then eating the charge, since we're just as good first turn of combat charging as we are defending (see counter-attack), it also gives you more chances to whittle your opponent down with the overwatch.

 

Can't say I agree with this statement. You definitely want SW in CC as much as possible. Tau have terrible WS and T for example.  Your issue with Tau is wiping a whole unit in your round leaving you stranded to be fired upon in their round. There are many many ways of dealing with horde lists, IG,Orks, Nids. You easily counter Eldar/DE in CC with hitting at init weapons and taking CoF for WS 5 on most units. 

 

SW are a much better CC codex that they are a ranged one. We lack in ranged department not CC. You will never put together a ranged list to compare and compete to E/DE/IG/Tau

[Frater Cornelius]

^This. SW has way better CC elements than even BA have. Our Tacs are pro at used CC defensively against melee armies (Rapid Fire, Overwatch, Counter-Attack) while our TWC and Wolves are amazing proactive attackers. Cav and Beasts are the best and in my eyes only viable CC units right now. You can toss assault transports right out of the Window. If it can't move 12" and has no Fleet, it ain't assaulting any time soon.

 

As for what to play.. play whatever you like the look off and get good with it. I did not become a SW cheesemaster until after I stopped looking for someone to do my list and started playing what I enjoy. As a result I run some of the more unusual lists that would cause a major headache to those internet-think-tanks, and yet I do just fine. Go figure.

[Donkalleone]

I have to disagree in some minor Points.

While Certain Units of ours are a really good Assault Units (TWC , IPTWM and Fenrisan for example) you have to play to your advantage.

A Shooty unit should be assaulting us and a melee unit should be charged by us. Since we have in most cases no difference who charges we can play to that.

The Only Upgrade that can make a whole unit more versatil and doesnt hurt to much is the CCW for GH , even more when they are DP.

 

We sadly dont have Wave Serpents/WraithKnighs or Dreadknights or other broken units but even without TWC/TWM we can have agood versatil force.

 

@Zooz he cleary stated what to assault and what not to...calling him wrong and then reassuring what he said is kinda unfair.

[Z00Z]

@Zooz he cleary stated what to assault and what not to...calling him wrong and then reassuring what he said is kinda unfair.

I don't think you read his post properly.

He said " In my experience, you want to stay out of close combat with anything that's not marines (C:SM and C:DA), Tau, or IG. Orks, DEldar, Eldar, and Nids will mess you up in CC"

You can be forgiven for mis-reading 2 posts

[Karhedron]

One thing I am looking at for WG Terminators are combi weapons in place of storm bolters. One of the big drawbacks of Pods or teleporting is the inability to assault the turn you arrive. Many armies include disposable melta squads for alpha striking important vehicles but these tend to be a waste of points later in the game. Combining the 2 ideas would be a squad of 5 TDA with 4 combi-meltas and an assault cannon. For close combat I would stick mostly to power axes as they keep the unit cost down but chuck in a chainfist or TH for dealing with vehicles or MCs after the combi-meltas are done.

 

On the turn they arrive, 4 combi meltas and an assault cannon should be enough firepower to toast any vehicle in the game (decent odds of killing even a Land Raider). From the next turn onwards, the combi-bolters are as good as storm bolters on a Relentless platform as long as you are within 12" (which DS should mean you are). The unit can also lay down considerable hurt in close combat. This gives you have a unit that is overall more dangerous than normal tactical Terminators for only a slight increase in cost.

 

But most importantly, they can lay down serious hurt on the turn they arrive rather than just plinking away with their storm bolters.

[Hear da Lamentation]

If agree with the CC posts. For instance I recently did a 1000 point no shooting units - combat only against a good Nid player .... tabled him.

 

Mine was something like

 

Thunder wolf guard battle leader SS/KS/ra

5 TWC 2 SS 1th

 

Iron priest on TW

4 cyber wolves

 

Blizzdread in pod

 

4 TDA 2 SS 2pf

Arjac

 

It's not an all comers list, but the rules were no shooting :)

[xxoblivionxx33]

I played nids in a tourney, thunder wolves deal with them quite easily. They may have volume ,but the volume is a low quality attack that as long as you don't roll horribly you'll be ok. 

[Hear da Lamentation]

They are a different army when they can shoot.  Nids can produce mass small arms fire like nobody's business.  Also the Flyrants are vicious.

 

HDL

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

Every  community is different. But look, I said in my experience, meaning those were my observations, not to be taken as gospel. I've not had very good luck against orks, eldar, or dark eldar in close combat, until I whittle the numbers down with some shooting. The Grey hunters are a versatile unit, but are not nearly what they were. 

 

For the record, I was saying that Marines, Tau, and Guard should be engaged in close combat, since that is where they are weak. (I play Tau, I know all too well about their crap WS and initiative). I was also saying that generally Orks should not be engaged in close combat since they can throw horrendous amounts of attacks, and their strength as an army is in their numbers. Terrible armour saves and our good shooting should be played against each other, before getting into close combat (reduce the numbers, since our attacks generally don't ignore their armour). Eldar and Dark eldar hit before we do in close combat, which makes them a threat, since their WS is generally the same as ours or in some cases better, and Eldar shooting range is pathetic. Basic infantry range is 12", Dire avengers go to 18". Sorry, but I'll keep eldar at arms length, so I can hit them with all of mine, while they can hit me with only a few for as long as I can afford to. Now the Bladestorm rule on the eldar weapons is something to watch out for, since on 6's they ignore our armour, and we should definitely close the gap quickly once we are in range of their infantry guns. 

 

I apologize If I'm not articulating my point as clearly as I intended. 

 

I also agree that we have some very strong melee units, but I must disagree with the assertion that space wolves are a CC oriented army. Compared to other Space marines, yes, but not when compared to other races. Space wolves offer the benefit of flexibility, and making use of that flexibility is the true objective.

[Frater Cornelius]

You do not see our melee as very strong because you send in the wrong units. GH have nothing to do in melee. As of the new codex, they are a ranged unit.

 

When you want melee, check our Wolf Lords, TWC, TDAWG and arguably PAWG Bikers. Thunderlords wipe the floor with most dedicated CC units others bring to the table (mine hacked his way through a unit of 10 Paladins on his own, amongst other things), Necron Wraiths are the only CC unit comparable to TWC and they are considered OP (due to their innate 3++), TDAWG bring flexibility and melee weapons at half the price. Have them ride a pod with 5 combi-weapons, 3 SS, a Claw and a CF. That unit will wreak havoc. Personally, I am not sold on anything that wears a Power Armour (TWC notwithstanding), but some people swear by them.

[Z00Z]

You do not see our melee as very strong because you send in the wrong units. GH have nothing to do in melee. As of the new codex, they are a ranged unit.

 

When you want melee, check our Wolf Lords, TWC, TDAWG and arguably PAWG Bikers. Thunderlords wipe the floor with most dedicated CC units others bring to the table (mine hacked his way through a unit of 10 Paladins on his own, amongst other things), Necron Wraiths are the only CC unit comparable to TWC and they are considered OP (due to their innate 3++), TDAWG bring flexibility and melee weapons at half the price. Have them ride a pod with 5 combi-weapons, 3 SS, a Claw and a CF. That unit will wreak havoc. Personally, I am not sold on anything that wears a Power Armour (TWC notwithstanding), but some people swear by them.

This exactly^

 

The generalist GH approach will not work too well in 7th. Build a cc unit for cc. A 15 BC unit will outperform a GH unit in cc even with ccw tax on the charge. The key is volume of hits, which is why TWC shine.

[Apokalypsi]

 

You do not see our melee as very strong because you send in the wrong units. GH have nothing to do in melee. As of the new codex, they are a ranged unit.

 

When you want melee, check our Wolf Lords, TWC, TDAWG and arguably PAWG Bikers. Thunderlords wipe the floor with most dedicated CC units others bring to the table (mine hacked his way through a unit of 10 Paladins on his own, amongst other things), Necron Wraiths are the only CC unit comparable to TWC and they are considered OP (due to their innate 3++), TDAWG bring flexibility and melee weapons at half the price. Have them ride a pod with 5 combi-weapons, 3 SS, a Claw and a CF. That unit will wreak havoc. Personally, I am not sold on anything that wears a Power Armour (TWC notwithstanding), but some people swear by them.

This exactly^

 

The generalist GH approach will not work too well in 7th. Build a cc unit for cc. A 15 BC unit will outperform a GH unit in cc even with ccw tax on the charge. The key is volume of hits, which is why TWC shine.

 

TWC shine because of durability/mobility. A full squad of naked BC compared to a full squad of naked TWC have the same number of attacks normally, and 15 more on the charge. Why TWC is so much better is they don't need a dedicated transport and will survive against more opponents.

 

I definitely agree that GH have become a shooting unit now. Add 2 meltas to a 10 man squad and a WGPL with combi melta for anti-tank, or 2 plasmas and WGPL with combi plas for anti-infantry. Throw them in a DP and put them where you need them.

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

I see where you're coming from now. I've known about the basic blood claw cc for a while now, but never had enough blood claws to make a go of it ( I do now, 20 of them) I have 12 TDAWG with dual wolf claws, and 5 with TH/SS(plus Arjac, making six if I don't use named characters). I have Logan Grimnar, but never get to use him, because no one wants to play lords of war. I have 3 TWC with TH/SS, but rarely find a use for them, since I kinda have a theme in mind that I want to stick to. I have 10 Wolf Guard that I can spec as shooty or choppy. and I have 10 Jumpguard/skyclaws that can be shooty or choppy. 

 

So I guess I can see where I'm going wrong, with my close combat. But in a shooty wolf army, my comments on tactics are still valid. I guess I just run to my comfort zone of shooting (I was military, where they taught us to try and stay out of hand to hand, and when I picked 40K back up, I really started with Tau after dabbling in DA for a bit. So we see where my shooting bias comes from). 

 

I do favour aggressive play, and I use drop pods to get my units up close and personal. Maybe some drop pods full of basic blood claws and a basic rune priest for re-roll shenanigans. Or maybe a big unit of blood claws in a LRC with a basic rune priest for re-roll shenanigans. Backed up by my jumpguard and TWC. Combined with some choppy TDAWG and the CotGW det.

 

Gives me some things to think about, in terms of CC. How would you spec PAWG for close combat? JPWG? 

 

Use melee units to tie up infantry while GH kill the hard targets?

[Frater Cornelius]

GH can not kill hard targets. There is a reason why many people prefer Champions of Fenris. GH are best in killing chaff or backfield units like Broadsides or TFC, but will fail against today's elite.

[Ulrik_Ironfist]

I was actually thinking hard targets along the lines of vehicles, artillery, fortifications. That stuff. the stuff that generally can't defend against a ton of bolter fire and close combat, and krak grenades, the stuff I'd want to use drop pods to get to.