Mazryonh Posted December 7, 2014 Share Posted December 7, 2014 There's a character from Know No Fear who says that among Guilliman's fellow Primarchs, only "four or five at best" could "compare favourably" with Guilliman. I don't have access to the novels, but I'd like to know which Primarchs those would likely be. Last I heard, Konrad Curze gave both Guilliman and Lion El'Jonson a run for their money, so Curze definitely counts as one of the "four or five." Angron beat out Leman Russ (the "Emperor's Executioner") in single combat, so he would likely win against Guilliman as well. That leaves out who the other 3 would be, though one of them would almost certainly be Horus himself. I would have liked to see how Primarchs like pre-ascension Fulgrim (the "sublime swordsman") or Perturabo would have performed against Guilliman, or even whether he would have stood much of a chance against Horus, but it's unlikely that will happen in the novels. I suppose this will all be cleared up in a more concrete manner when FW releases Guilliman's tabletop stats (and hopefully model) when they release Tempest (which will all be about the Battle of Calth). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/300119-who-were-guillimans-four-or-five/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slips Posted December 7, 2014 Share Posted December 7, 2014 Sanguinius is definitely up there, imo, since he's, well, Sanguinius. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/300119-who-were-guillimans-four-or-five/#findComment-3881978 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Eremon Posted December 7, 2014 Share Posted December 7, 2014 The Dauntless Few, which included Sanguinius, Ferrus Manus, Leman Russ and Rogal Dorn. Basically, he was saying that these five, including himself, are really all one would ever need to beat any foe. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/300119-who-were-guillimans-four-or-five/#findComment-3881982 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Millicant Posted December 7, 2014 Share Posted December 7, 2014 Since Guilleman outright says that he looks up to The Lion I'd imagine he's one of them. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/300119-who-were-guillimans-four-or-five/#findComment-3881993 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disciple of Caliban Sgt Posted December 7, 2014 Share Posted December 7, 2014 Cormac nailed it. The Dauntless few were what Guilliman stated if he had anyone of those primarchs and their legions with him he would be able to win any battle/war outright. Basically it was his if things go to hell I can count on these five and know that I will win. While he looks up to the lion, and seems a bit jealous honestly, he doesn't trust him and even as a faithful Son of the First Legion I can't blame him. The Lion made it nearly impossible to be completely trusted but that also comes from his Legion's history. I mean you've got a bunch of guys basically Brofisting with the Emperor and they are given to a social tarzan who barely trusts anything. Hard to be able to count on them as Guilliman is looking for in the Dauntless Few. I don't want this to turn into he believes the Lion will go traitor. Just that he doesn't know how or the exact techniques of his Legion so how can he come up with a battle strategy that he loves so much. DoC Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/300119-who-were-guillimans-four-or-five/#findComment-3882012 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted December 7, 2014 Share Posted December 7, 2014 I don't think he is asking about the dauntless few. IIRC there was a statement somewhere in KNF how Guilliman was among the five best swordsmen or something like that. My guess for the other four top fighters would be Horus, Sanguinius, Angron and Leman Russ. Runners up might be Jonson, Fulgrim and Khan. Curze is more of a dirty fighter, with little technique, and needs to get the drop on the other, or trip him up in some way. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/300119-who-were-guillimans-four-or-five/#findComment-3882122 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucien Eilam Posted December 7, 2014 Share Posted December 7, 2014 It's not an objective fact. It's one Ultramarine's heavily biased opinion that his Primarch is better than most of the others. As the character is an Ultramarine, I imagine his picks would probably skew toward the other more noble, loyal Primarchs rather than be a perfectly rational assessment of their qualities. A Space Marine isn't really qualified to pass judgment. And he was wrong regardless. On his day, any Primarch had the potential to beat any other. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/300119-who-were-guillimans-four-or-five/#findComment-3882125 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balthamal Posted December 7, 2014 Share Posted December 7, 2014 Agreed the actual context of the passage is based around who could reasonably outmatch Gulliman with a blade but the observation comes from Aeonid Thiel, who being an Ultramarine isn't unbiased with that opinion. Curze did pretty well against Gulliman and the Lion both but that isn't much to go on when previously the Lion put Curze down in a matter of seconds. All subjective and depends heavily on "that particular moment" At the end of the day, all the Primarchs can beat all the Primarchs. Only if/when we see one die in a straight up fight - no warp powers, no overwhelming with thousands, no killing from orbit etc. Only if it happens blade to blade will one be categorically better than the other Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/300119-who-were-guillimans-four-or-five/#findComment-3882161 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disciple of Caliban Sgt Posted December 7, 2014 Share Posted December 7, 2014 The OP's first line seems to refer directly to the Dauntless few. Their second paragraph seems to be about the hand to hand capabilities of Guilliman. I'd say Sanguinus is probably one of the best swordsman along with Russ. They all were considered excellent and Curze with his claws obviously held the Lion and Guilliman at bay for awhile. But in one of the ADB short stories Lion also rammed a sword through him pretty thoroughly. I agree on any day any Primarch could beat the others. However Sanguinus was known to be one of the best with a sword according to one of the books, Fear to Tread maybe? I would say Guilliman wasn't known for being the hand to hand guru but of course he could "hold his own." Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/300119-who-were-guillimans-four-or-five/#findComment-3882195 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Castiel Posted December 7, 2014 Share Posted December 7, 2014 The best swordsmen in the Primarchs from what I know are Fulgrim, Sanguinius, the Lion, the Khan and maybe Russ? (I'd never really considered him a blades man, more of a brawler, but I'm not that hot on his background) Not sure where I'd rate Guilliman in there. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/300119-who-were-guillimans-four-or-five/#findComment-3882214 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucien Eilam Posted December 7, 2014 Share Posted December 7, 2014 The OP's first line seems to refer directly to the Dauntless few. It's not. He's referring to this passage, which is more about the psychological impact of Guilliman's presence than swordsmanship: The primarch is, of course, their greatest asset, Thiel realises. Not because of his physical superiority, though that is hard to overestimate. It is because he is a primarch. Because he is Roboute Guilliman. Because he is simply one of the greatest warriors in the Imperium. How many beings could measure favourably against him? Honestly? All seventeen of his brothers? Not all seventeen. Nothing like all seventeen. Four or five at best. At best. The Word Bearers on the upper structures see him coming. They are kill squad strength at least, the best part of a full company. At least a proportion of them are the vaunted Gal Vorbak elite. But they see him coming, and they know what that means. It doesn’t matter what cosmic dementia has corrupted their minds and souls. It doesn’t matter what eternal promises the Dark Gods are whispering in their ears. It doesn’t matter what inflated courage the warp has poured into their veins along with madness. Guilliman of Ultramar is coming right at them. To kill them. To kill them all. Even though they stand a chance of hurting him, they waste it. They baulk. For a second, their twisted hearts know fear. Real fear. And then he has them. And then he is killing them. Thiel is an Ultramarines sergeant who was marked for censure because he advocated running theoreticals on how to fight Space Marines. The dauntless few were nothing to do with personal combat. They were the primarchs and their legions Guilliman considered reliable and dependable, to the point that any one of them alongside the Ultramarines would guarantee victory in any war: In all tactical simulations, Guilliman shows particular favour for certain of his brothers. He refers to them as the dauntless few, the ones he can most truly depend upon to do what they were made to do. Dorn and his Legion are one. Ill-tempered, argumentative Russ is another. Sanguinius is a third. Guilliman admires the Khan greatly, but the White Scars are neither predictable nor trustworthy. Ferrus Manus and the Iron Hands were always the fourth of the dauntless few. With any one of those key four – Dorn, Russ, Manus or Sanguinius – Guilliman always claimed he could win any war. Outright. Against any foe. Even in extremis, the Ultramarines could compact with any one of those four allies and take down any foe. It was primary theoretical. In any doomsday scenario that faced the Imperium, Guilliman could play it out to a practical win provided he could rely on one of those four. And of them, Manus was the key. Implacable. Unshakeable. If he was at your side, he would never break. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/300119-who-were-guillimans-four-or-five/#findComment-3882239 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted December 7, 2014 Share Posted December 7, 2014 Given that until the Heresy, if a Primarch was actually fighting it was to make a point or somebody messed up the Dauntless Few are more important than who was better at sword fighting. It's the only reference outside of Horus looking up to Dorn and Guilliman as more successful brothers, Guilliman looking up to the Lion as the naturally successful firstborn, and Horus fearing Sanguinius abilities as a leader we have of comparative aspects of generalship of the Primarchs. Dorn was specifically referenced as being too Draconian, but pairing the Dauntless Few together meant victory was guarenteed. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/300119-who-were-guillimans-four-or-five/#findComment-3882312 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aalz Posted December 7, 2014 Share Posted December 7, 2014 There are separate lists of most skilled fighters and most skilled swordsman. In the former, you can consider Russ as his role was that of the executioner. Of course Horus. Sanguinius was considered the best overall fighter. Corax considered himself top 5. I would consider Angron in that list because of the scoreboard. As far as swordsmen, the best goes down to the Khan or Fulgrim. Even Sanguinius at Ullanor admired their sword skills and proclaimed they wielded blades like gods. Jaghatai told Fulgrim his honest opinion and much like Perturabo upon hearing Dorn's honest answer, Fulgrim nearly went into a fit of rage. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/300119-who-were-guillimans-four-or-five/#findComment-3882566 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted December 7, 2014 Share Posted December 7, 2014 all of this is my opinion, based on the Heresy novels, novellas, and audiobooks. most skilled fighters: This means they can blend different forms of attack in personal combat to a degree above their brothers, in no order Horus Sanguinius Angron Russ Corax/Night Haunter (these two are there because their personal skills and ambush nature just seem utterly deadly to me. Also, Corax is awesome.) Best Swordsmen: This means their skills with the sword are a degree above their brothers, in no particular orderFulgrim Khan the Lion WLK Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/300119-who-were-guillimans-four-or-five/#findComment-3882598 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted December 7, 2014 Share Posted December 7, 2014 Replace Corax/Curze in the first list with Guilliman and I would agree with both lists. Sneak attacking is deadly, allright, but everyone is extra deadly if he gets the drop on someone. How well would an individual primarch do without having a field advantage? How well would he do in a "best of five" type contest against various others? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/300119-who-were-guillimans-four-or-five/#findComment-3882635 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aalz Posted December 7, 2014 Share Posted December 7, 2014 Well Corax was dodging lascannon shots and shoving lightning claws into Lorgar. Guilliman's duel with Lorgar could have gone either way before ol' Angron stepped in to do what Angron does. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/300119-who-were-guillimans-four-or-five/#findComment-3882641 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted December 7, 2014 Share Posted December 7, 2014 Corax grew up among slave miners. Guilliman grew up in space sparta. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/300119-who-were-guillimans-four-or-five/#findComment-3882649 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Eremon Posted December 7, 2014 Share Posted December 7, 2014 I think this thread is pretty dangerously close to becoming a "My dad can beat your dad" thread. My money's on Felix Schrodingus of the II Legion. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/300119-who-were-guillimans-four-or-five/#findComment-3882652 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aalz Posted December 7, 2014 Share Posted December 7, 2014 Truthfully this comes down to personal opinion and the fact any Primarch can have the opportunity to drop another one. I was simply stating that Corax didn't require stealth to fight Lorgar and completely waylay the other Primarch. Unremembered Empire seems to describe Guilliman as a beast, but certainly seems to give the Lion the spotlight when fighting Curze. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/300119-who-were-guillimans-four-or-five/#findComment-3882655 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted December 8, 2014 Share Posted December 8, 2014 I would say that while Guilliman is no slouch, as he did stand against both Angron and Lorgrar, but his gifts are more in the realm of tactical/strategic. WLK Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/300119-who-were-guillimans-four-or-five/#findComment-3882682 Share on other sites More sharing options...
b1soul Posted December 8, 2014 Share Posted December 8, 2014 Curze did pretty well against Gulliman and the Lion both but that isn't much to go on when previously the Lion put Curze down in a matter of seconds. I believe in Round 2, Curze and the Lion engage in an extended duel ending with Curze being put into a coma via slash to the throat Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/300119-who-were-guillimans-four-or-five/#findComment-3882833 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balthamal Posted December 8, 2014 Share Posted December 8, 2014 Curze did pretty well against Gulliman and the Lion both but that isn't much to go on when previously the Lion put Curze down in a matter of seconds. I believe in Round 2, Curze and the Lion engage in an extended duel ending with Curze being put into a coma via slash to the throat The extended duel was round 1. Round 2, the Lion put him down quickly. At least according to Prince of Crows. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/300119-who-were-guillimans-four-or-five/#findComment-3882903 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fire Golem Posted December 8, 2014 Share Posted December 8, 2014 And then round 3 was the Lion and Guilliman against Curze. That was after he got his throat cut and stuff right? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/300119-who-were-guillimans-four-or-five/#findComment-3882975 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balthamal Posted December 8, 2014 Share Posted December 8, 2014 I'd say round 3 is Curze vs the Lion at the end of Prince of Crows. Round 4 would be the two on one handicap bout Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/300119-who-were-guillimans-four-or-five/#findComment-3883137 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucien Eilam Posted December 8, 2014 Share Posted December 8, 2014 And then round 3 was the Lion and Guilliman against Curze. You're missing one. There were two extended duels: 1) On Tsagualsa, the Lion struck a low blow, then they duelled for ~7-8 minutes (based on Alajos' estimate of the drop pod assault's arrival) before being dragged away by their men. (Savage Weapons) 2) At Sheol, the Lion ambushed the Night Lords using the Tuchulcha warp engine and cut Curze's throat in ~60 seconds. (Prince of Crows) 3) On the Invincible Reason, their first fair fight, they duelled for >9 minutes (based on Sevatar's estimate of how long it would take him to reach the fifteenth concourse, where the Atramentar were engaged because that's where the primarchs had met) before Curze fled as the Dark Angel forces became overwhelming. (Prince of Crows) 4) On Macragge, Curze lured the Lion and Guilliman into a trap at the Chapel of Memorial. They traded a few blows, it exploded, but the Pharos beacon transported them all to safety. (Unremembered Empire) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/300119-who-were-guillimans-four-or-five/#findComment-3883154 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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