Who were Guilliman's "four or five"?

[Wade Garrett]

You're missing one. There were two extended duels:

 

1) On Tsagualsa, the Lion struck a low blow, then they duelled for ~7-8 minutes (based on Alajos' estimate of the drop pod assault's arrival) before being dragged away by their men.

You left off the bit where Curze took Jonson to the ground and was strangling him to death when Corswain decided that one on one fights are only allowed when his Primarch is winning them.

[The_son_of_Dorn]

-_- 

 

i HATE 'my legions daddy can beat your legions daddy' fight threads.

 

Way I see it is more like a super hero duel. if Lion were just for example being portrayed by spider man and curze by Carnage it would be understandable for either one to come out on top given the scenario and just because a primarch loses a fight to one of his brothers does NOT mean he isn't capable of coming back stronger and delivering an return butt whooping, history is full of such examples of grudge matches. To me if the Lion or Dorn were to square of with Night Haunter again one on one and Night Haunter did get whooped i would have no lack of respect for him but neither would i be lording/blowing hot air up the victor primarchs backside. 

 

Thing is all Primarchs are giants in their field of expertise, only real problem is the landscaping of that field at times. 

[Wade Garrett]

Oh, I'm not denying Lion carved the Haunter up like a pot roast in their second encounter, but just because Rocky beat the brakes off Clubber Lang in the rematch doesn't mean he didn't lose the first fight.

[Mazryonh]

i HATE 'my legions daddy can beat your legions daddy' fight threads.

 

I didn't intend for this to become a versus thread, but I just wanted to know the context behind that line (I was expecting that the "four or five" would have been those among the traitors that Guilliman would fear to face in personal combat, which is what the second part of my first post was about). 

 

 

Guilliman admires the Khan greatly, but the White Scars are neither predictable nor trustworthy.

 

 

 

Funny how the Khan and his troops made it to Terra for the Siege of Terra whereas the Ultramarines couldn't until it was too late (not a spoiler; this has been WH40k canon for a very long time).  Couldn't the surviving loyalist non-Sanguinius Primarchs on Macragge at least have sent a "worthy" company from each of their legions to travel with the Blood Angels on their mad dash to assist in the defense of Terra?

 

Also, was it later in the same book where Guilliman learns the hard way about the value of unpredictability by surviving a disguised Alpha Legion assassination attempt? He likely never saw eye-to-eye with the Alpha Legion's methods or its Primarch's, until they were used against him.

 

 

  Manus was the key. Implacable. Unshakeable. If he was at your side, he would never break.

 

 

I take that this line was supposed to ironic, since Ferrus Manus was the first Primarch to fall in the Heresy.  He clearly didn't know "when to fold 'em."  He should have realized he and his legion had two choices at the Dropsite Massacre given how badly they were outnumbered and outgunned, which were either to be destroyed to a man or have a chance to escape ragged-but-alive, so that he might have joined with Corvus Corax in trying to get off-world.   He neither bent nor broke, but he should have still realized that "dying with your boots on" is still dead, and dead loyalists can no longer serve their Emperor.

 

I'm also surprised that Guilliman didn't ascribe the same qualities in this passage to Mortarion and his Death Guard.  They certainly prided themselves on their resilience and ability to tank damage while not running (as per their 30k Rite of War) during advances, much like the Iron Hands.

[Lucien Eilam]

I take that this line was supposed to ironic, since Ferrus Manus was the first Primarch to fall in the Heresy.  He clearly didn't know "when to fold 'em."  He should have realized he and his legion had two choices at the Dropsite Massacre given how badly they were outnumbered and outgunned, which were either to be destroyed to a man or have a chance to escape ragged-but-alive, so that he might have joined with Corvus Corax in trying to get off-world.   He neither bent nor broke, but he should have still realized that "dying with your boots on" is still dead, and dead loyalists can no longer serve their Emperor.

 

The characters in that scene don't know any of that. At this point they believe Vulkan, Corax and Ferrus are all dead, but they have no details beyond that. It's Marius Gage's thought, in response to Guilliman saying he'll miss Ferrus most of the three.

[Legatus]

I'm also surprised that Guilliman didn't ascribe the same qualities in this passage to Mortarion and his Death Guard.

 

 

One could just as well ask why he did not consider the Dark Angels, the Sons of Horus or the Emperor's Children. Presumably because those Legions and/or their Primarchs were not as cooperative when it came to coordinating their efforts with an allied Legion.

[tdemayo]

Any time a primarch picks up a sword for anything other than inspirational purposes, they are doing it wrong. They have legions to do the actual fighting. Primarchs should be generalling and thinking.

[Fire Golem]

Any time a primarch picks up a sword for anything other than inspirational purposes, they are doing it wrong. They have legions to do the actual fighting. Primarchs should be generalling and thinking.

Sometimes being a good General means leading from the front though, leading by example.

[tdemayo]

And that is inspirational... it's about more than killing the man in front of you.

[Castiel]

Any time a primarch picks up a sword for anything other than inspirational purposes, they are doing it wrong. They have legions to do the actual fighting. Primarchs should be generalling and thinking.

Not so, there were some situations where a throwing a Primarch into the fray was the quickest and easiest way to sort a situation. Part of being a good general is knowing what assets you have and what will bring the quickest and least costly victory. Sometimes that would mean going straight into the heaviest fighting and breaking the enemy with the best warrior you have. A Primarch could go places and do things that mere legionaries couldn't.

[Marshal Rohr]

 

 

Any time a primarch picks up a sword for anything other than inspirational purposes, they are doing it wrong. They have legions to do the actual fighting. Primarchs should be generalling and thinking.

Not so, there were some situations where a throwing a Primarch into the fray was the quickest and easiest way to sort a situation. Part of being a good general is knowing what assets you have and what will bring the quickest and least costly victory. Sometimes that would mean going straight into the heaviest fighting and breaking the enemy with the best warrior you have. A Primarch could go places and do things that mere legionaries couldn't.

Except tunnels, closets, low ceiling rooms, cars, cockpits, and other human sized spaces.

[Candleshoes]

I love topics around the Dauntless Few.

 

One of my favorite things about them, is when other primarchs apart from Guilliman make comments on members of the Dauntless Few, under circumstances similair to Guilliman's own line of thinking. The natural of course is Horus himself, as he looks at what chess pieces he has, which could potentially be his, and which he wishes he had.

 

Most people have a poor reaction to the fact that Guilliman puts Ferrus Manus on the short list of 4, and not only that, mentions that he is the key player. They say if Manus was so flawed, hot-headed, and sometimes so arrogant, why was he sought after as a corner stone? The below exerpt is from the novel Vengeful Spirit, and to see Horus musing over the same things as Guilliman was very interesting indeed.

 

http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p113/Darkbeastman/ferrus_zps8913f179.jpg

[Balthamal]

 

 

Guilliman admires the Khan greatly, but the White Scars are neither predictable nor trustworthy.

 

 

 

Funny how the Khan and his troops made it to Terra for the Siege of Terra whereas the Ultramarines couldn't until it was too late (not a spoiler; this has been WH40k canon for a very long time).  Couldn't the surviving loyalist non-Sanguinius Primarchs on Macragge at least have sent a "worthy" company from each of their legions to travel with the Blood Angels on their mad dash to assist in the defense of Terra?

 

Also, was it later in the same book where Guilliman learns the hard way about the value of unpredictability by surviving a disguised Alpha Legion assassination attempt? He likely never saw eye-to-eye with the Alpha Legion's methods or its Primarch's, until they were used against him.

 

 

It was brought up at the BL weekender and ADB addressed it directly - there is a VERY good reason why the Ultramarines didn't get to Terra whilst the Blood Angels did despite being on the same side of the Galaxy at one point. 

 

It's just a case of waiting to see what that reason is lol

[Marshal Rohr]

The Ultramarines ran out of gas? Lucifer pattern ship engines?

[Daddywarcrimes]

My guess is that due to his heightened empathic state and connection to the Emperor, Sanguinus was able to use the beacon on Sotha to move his legion from Ultramar to beyond the Ruinstorm and reach earth.  Jonson and Guilleman, being pragmatic sociopaths, were not able to use the same method.

[Conn Eremon]

My guess is that due to his heightened empathic state and connection to the Emperor, Sanguinus was able to use the beacon on Sotha to move his legion from Ultramar to beyond the Ruinstorm and reach earth. Jonson and Guilleman, being pragmatic sociopaths, were not able to use the same method.

Unremembered Empire disproves that by having Guilliman accidentally utilize it, realize how, then consciously and deliberately recreate the effect.

[Wade Garrett]

Jonson and Guilleman, being pragmatic sociopaths, were not able to use the same method.

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

[Daddywarcrimes]

 

Jonson and Guilleman, being pragmatic sociopaths, were not able to use the same method.

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

 

 

It's hyperbolic.

 

And I forgot that Guillemain did manage to use it to get back from Sotha.  So much for that theory.

[Conn Eremon]

Explaining to Wade Garret that something was hyperbole.

 

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m6hnhhhfkM1rokmr1.jpg

[Mazryonh]

 

One could just as well ask why he did not consider the Dark Angels, the Sons of Horus or the Emperor's Children. Presumably because those Legions and/or their Primarchs were not as cooperative when it came to coordinating their efforts with an allied Legion.

 

 

I would think the Emperor's Children were out because of their perfectionism and arrogance.  And I was mainly talking about the similarity in fighting styles between the Death Guard and the Iron Hands, the whole "Stoic Advance" thing.  As for the Dark Angels, I think the main problem is that Lion El'Jonson's lack of socialization during his formative years severely impeded his and Guilliman's getting along together.

 

 

Most people have a poor reaction to the fact that Guilliman puts Ferrus Manus on the short list of 4, and not only that, mentions that he is the key player. They say if Manus was so flawed, hot-headed, and sometimes so arrogant, why was he sought after as a corner stone? The below exerpt is from the novel Vengeful Spirit, and to see Horus musing over the same things as Guilliman was very interesting indeed.

 

It still doesn't answer why Ferrus Manus was considered so important.  Is the thing that Horus is referring to the "willingness to take any means to victory"?  I remember hearing about Guilliman including a "by any means" clause in his writings about war, so maybe that's what Horus is referring to about Guilliman "knowing what war is really about, but wishing he didn't."

[BassWave]

I believe the reason why people have a hard time with Ferrus being held to such a high standard amongst his brothers is because the biggest thing he did for the story of the Heresy was him dying.

 

Unfortunately most of what's written about him and the Iron Hands in general is mediocre at best. He was only truly hot headed once, and that's because his closests friends/brothers not only betrayed the imperium, but they also thought that he would follow them. However, I'd invite all of you to read Forge World's Massacre. It goes more in depth in their fluff, like how Ferrus was the one training all the newly found primarchs.

 

Gulliman's thoughts on the dauntless few were not his beliefs on who were the best, but which ones understood the values of teamwork and synergy in order to win wars. That's my views on it anyway.

[Candleshoes]

 

Most people have a poor reaction to the fact that Guilliman puts Ferrus Manus on the short list of 4, and not only that, mentions that he is the key player. They say if Manus was so flawed, hot-headed, and sometimes so arrogant, why was he sought after as a corner stone? The below exerpt is from the novel Vengeful Spirit, and to see Horus musing over the same things as Guilliman was very interesting indeed.

 

It still doesn't answer why Ferrus Manus was considered so important.  Is the thing that Horus is referring to the "willingness to take any means to victory"?  I remember hearing about Guilliman including a "by any means" clause in his writings about war, so maybe that's what Horus is referring to about Guilliman "knowing what war is really about, but wishing he didn't."

 

http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p113/Darkbeastman/sf_zps0755d205.png

 

Ferrus was a conqueror who was capable of working with his peers to achieve victory. All he ate, slept and breathed was the strength to win, a cornerstone or foundation that either Horus or Guilliman could have relied on.

[mc warhammer]

maybe i'm dumb but what exactly is horus saying in that vengeful spirit quote? i read it as "nobody knows war like me except one other. ok, two others but really only one."

[Candleshoes]

The 'Terra would already be ours if he joined us' was a hint I suppose.

[The_son_of_Dorn]

Interesting, for all the junk that befalls the iron hand and Ferrus, that Horus (who is the biggest puppet of all time next to Logar) would hold him in such high esteem, I've not read many books in which The Iron handed primarch was considered so capable in warfare. Certainly not at the drop site massacre.  

 

I always considered him to be a hot headed bully, with no real interest in brotherhood. I'm glad they removed his Jolly Bonnet.