Who were Guilliman's "four or five"?

[Fire Golem]

maybe i'm dumb but what exactly is horus saying in that vengeful spirit quote? i read it as "nobody knows war like me except one other. ok, two others but really only one."

I read it as 'only one other knows war like I do. And he died on Istvaan.' Kinda thing. Like, nothing is really standing in our way now. And had Fulgrim done what he said (you had ONE job Fulgrim...) we would already have won.

[Marshal Rohr]

It doesn't really matter if the books don't portray Ferrus as capable when FW has clearly outlined how capable he was. That's a failure on the part of the BL team to pull their weight in the storytelling department.

[Iron Hands Fanatic]

Unfortunately, the only book that really covers Ferrus is Fulgrim in which every description of him is significantly skewed towards the perspective of the III Legion's Primarch, and also describes the one point in his history where he properly lost it - resulting in an unsubtlety similar to "Ferrus mad! Ferrus smash!"

 

Thankfully, after Massacre, it seems like BL may be altering their depiction of The Gorgon to bring him more in line with the background that has been presented by FW - namely, a Primarch who commanded a number of his brothers & their Legions throughout the Great Crusade, a prime candidate for the title of Warmaster, and ultimately a general who was selected to lead 7 Legions to put down the traitors at Isstvan V. Those facts kinda suggest he must have been a considerably capable strategist and warrior.

[Legatus]

Ever since their first bit of lore in 3rd Edition, GW does not really know what to do with the Iron Hands. It started with the arbitrary "Terminator Sergeants" silliness of their Index Astartes article, plus the odd Chapter structure. IIRC in the BL Horus Heresy universe, Ferrus Manus was said to have crafted a weapon for each of his brothers, even though weapon crafting has allways been the trait of Vulkan and the Salamanders. Some sources say they have very few dreadnaughts, other sources say that they have more than usual. Someone then decided that the Iron Hands replacing their limbs with bionics was somehow frowned upon by Ferrus Manus, even though that is their one trait they have had since the very first Rogue Trader rulebook. And then, in the Forgeworld book, Ferrus Manus is suddenly said to have been a highly accomplished general, completely out of the blue, even though every casual fan of the setting could immediately name five Primarchs that were more accomplished. But perhaps he is now meant to be number six?

 

That is the problem of not having had an established place within the 40K setting from end of 1st, beginning of 2nd Edition. For the White Scars and the Salamanders that kinda worked out, and they found a niche for them. The Iron Hands and the Raven Guard were less lucky.

 

The traitor Legions at least each had a kernel of lore in the 2nd Edition Codex Chaos the Index Astartes articles could build on. Though the Alpha Legion were taken in a somewhat odd direction.

[Iron Hands Fanatic]

The Iron Hands Chapter and the Iron Hands Legion are very different things - there's been 10,000 years for the chapter to completely diverge from their origins as a Legion - FW had almost entire freedom when fleshing out the Legion, which they used to great effect.

 

A significant problem with the representation of the Chapter was how GW handled previous fluff - in many cases it seems authors either completely disregarded previous background or failed to read it - resulting in an even mix of fantastic background and abberations. In terms of the dreadnought / TDA thing, the lack of both in the immediate aftermath of the Massacre made sense, but over 10k years, obviously they'd be able to replenish their supplies. It was developed from there, with the idea that the previous shortfall led to a veneration of this wargear, hence the TDA sergeants & dreads leading companies - and from then on, the veneration of dreads was commonly interpreted as a likely larger number of 'noughts.

 

On the generalship thing, FW was only really applying logic to statements about Ferrus made a long time ago - he was the 3rd discovered Primarch, so one of the 'oldest', and something resulted in him leading the 7 legions on Isstvan - theres no way of explaining that without him being deemed capable of decent strategy. Also, the assumption that he is a 'lesser' general based on the one battle we actually know about, in which he was ambushed by 4 Legions doesn't really work - previously, we'd had completely insufficient information to come to a conclusion one way or the other.

 

In terms of forging weapons, all we know is Ferrus made stuff for Fulgrim, Lorgar & Vulkan - also, giving more than one of 18 Primarchs a similar trait isn't necessarliy sacriledge - creating believable, interesting characters kinda necessitates moving away from clunky archetypes - besides, the differences between Vulkan & Ferrus are abundantly clear.

 

I'm not going to talk about the bionics thing, becuase it involves two incredibly awful pieces of background that entirely destroyed the chapter, and I've already ranted enough about that.

 

The fact is, Forge World are developing new background for a Legion that was a pretty blank slate, and its entirely appropriate to their character - none of their background has contradicted the fluff laid out in the original Iron Hands IA article, which shows you how much we actually knew about the Legion before Massacre.

[Gree]

There's a character from Know No Fear who says that among Guilliman's fellow Primarchs, only "four or five at best" could "compare favourably" with Guilliman.  I don't have access to the novels, but I'd like to know which Primarchs those would likely be. 

 

 

Some Ultramarine sergeant said that yeah, but that doesn't make him objectively right. Especially when Guilliman is almost killed by a pseudo-Astartes shortly later. The hype doesn't really match up terribly well to the performance we see.

 

I'm sure the BL authors want to present all the primarchs are relatively equal in terms of martial prowess, but I do think some primarchs are more equal than others. At least for me, I don't really think Guilliman is one of the more martially capable primarchs. Rather, he seems more like a administrator or strategist than a unstoppable warrior juggernaut. Kinda like Lorgar is more of a priest than a masterful warrior.

[Legatus]

If I would have to take the assessment of a Marine about the capabilities of the various Legions or Primarchs, I would prefer it to be from an Ultramarine. They are generally the more rational of the bunch, and not as colored by personal beliefs as other Legions.

 

And though Guilliman's achievements in reforming the Imperium and in conquering worlds far outshone any feats as a fighter, I wish people would not overlook that he was raised in some of the galaxies toughest military training facilities, where he quickly bested all of his instructors in hand to hand combat. He was given his first military command as a young man, quickly pacifying the mountain regions, which had never before been accomplished. In comparison, Lorgar was raised by priests, became a man of faith, and travelled his world to spread his religion.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

 

And though Guilliman's achievements in reforming the Imperium and in conquering worlds far outshone any feats as a fighter, I wish people would not overlook that he was raised in some of the galaxies toughest military training facilities, where he quickly bested all of his instructors in hand to hand combat. He was given his first military command as a young man, quickly pacifying the mountain regions, which had never before been accomplished. In comparison, Lorgar was raised by priests, became a man of faith, and travelled his world to spread his religion.

 

On the other side of that coin, Guilliman was raised in an orderly society, where he trained in combat in relatively stable and safe conditions. Guilliman was never really tested until Conor was killed as Guilliman was pacifying tribes of nomads.

 

Lorgrar was born on a world that opposed his faith, and he burninated all who opposed him. I havent found any source stating that Lorgar recieved any formal training in combat, yet he still brought a world under his control through force and his skill at oratory. 

 

All that said, I wouldnt dismiss Guilliman's skills in CC, as he fought Angron and Lorgrar at the same time and walked away. That takes a large degree of skill. I simply dont place him amongst the best fighters.

 

WLK

[blackoption]

 

There's a character from Know No Fear who says that among Guilliman's fellow Primarchs, only "four or five at best" could "compare favourably" with Guilliman.  I don't have access to the novels, but I'd like to know which Primarchs those would likely be. 

 

 

Some Ultramarine sergeant said that yeah, but that doesn't make him objectively right. Especially when Guilliman is almost killed by a pseudo-Astartes shortly later. The hype doesn't really match up terribly well to the performance we see.

 

I'm sure the BL authors want to present all the primarchs are relatively equal in terms of martial prowess, but I do think some primarchs are more equal than others. At least for me, I don't really think Guilliman is one of the more martially capable primarchs. Rather, he seems more like a administrator or strategist than a unstoppable warrior juggernaut. Kinda like Lorgar is more of a priest than a masterful warrior.

 

 

To be fair, Kor Phearon had an 'ace in his pocket': Chaos sorcery.  It was an unknown, and therefor uncalculated, boon that the Word Bearer had.  Lesser opponents can 'one up' superior fighters through dirty tricks and misdirections.  It actually speaks to Guillimans ability that he not only survived the encounter, but also ripped out one of Kor Pheron's hearts.

[Conn Eremon]

"One of?" Kor Phaeron was augmented, but not as a Marine. He only had the one heart.

[blackoption]

Which made me wonder why he didn't die, but I remember the passage talking about Guilliman slamming his fist into his chest damaging/destroying Kr Phaeron's heart....

[Gree]

 

 

There's a character from Know No Fear who says that among Guilliman's fellow Primarchs, only "four or five at best" could "compare favourably" with Guilliman.  I don't have access to the novels, but I'd like to know which Primarchs those would likely be. 

 

 

Some Ultramarine sergeant said that yeah, but that doesn't make him objectively right. Especially when Guilliman is almost killed by a pseudo-Astartes shortly later. The hype doesn't really match up terribly well to the performance we see.

 

I'm sure the BL authors want to present all the primarchs are relatively equal in terms of martial prowess, but I do think some primarchs are more equal than others. At least for me, I don't really think Guilliman is one of the more martially capable primarchs. Rather, he seems more like a administrator or strategist than a unstoppable warrior juggernaut. Kinda like Lorgar is more of a priest than a masterful warrior.

 

 

To be fair, Kor Phearon had an 'ace in his pocket': Chaos sorcery.  It was an unknown, and therefor uncalculated, boon that the Word Bearer had.  Lesser opponents can 'one up' superior fighters through dirty tricks and misdirections.  It actually speaks to Guillimans ability that he not only survived the encounter, but also ripped out one of Kor Pheron's hearts.

 

 

Fulgrim shrugs off a power fist to a face with a grin. The Lion smacked down a Lord of Change and it's sorcery. Russ repeatedly tanked sorcery from Magnus. We probably have other examples too in the series but I've stopped reading the Horus Heresy series for while. We have many feats of Primarchs shrugging off far worse and triumphing.

 

The fact that Guilliman only survived because of his opponent's mercy does not support the idea that he is an impressive or highly skilled warrior. It merely supports that he is willing to fight dirty to win the fight.

 

To be clear, I am not impressed by Guilliman's performance, nor do I regard ''Chaos sorcery'' as a valid excuse for getting smacked around by Kor Phaeron. Hence why I regard him as the metaphorical desk jockey of the Primarchs. If people wish to interpret that scene otherwise, then that's fine by me, but it's really not going to change my opinion or interpretation of the event.

[Conn Eremon]

Which made me wonder why he didn't die, but I remember the passage talking about Guilliman slamming his fist into his chest damaging/destroying Kr Phaeron's heart....

Magic?

 

 

Gree: This makes me wonder then, connecting to the Corax Coup thread, how you intend to show a Macraggian Angron any different than Guilliman? There is the obvious personality differences that will define them, I know, but your ideas for a Macraggian Angron are distinctly not that of a desk jockey. But where will Angron get any of that, if you feel Guilliman doesn't? There is nothing on Macragge relating to martial prowess that Guilliman didn't encounter, master and perfect upon, for Angron to one-up him on. If anything, this opinion of Guilliman makes it sound like your Angron will be less than him, by being equal in prowess but lacking in generalship, though obviously the latter would be vastly higher than Angron's canon.

 

This isn't necessarily something relevant to this thread though, so if you'd like to discuss this I could meet you there.

[Legatus]

On the other side of that coin, Guilliman was raised in an orderly society, where he trained in combat in relatively stable and safe conditions. Guilliman was never really tested until Conor was killed as Guilliman was pacifying tribes of nomads.

 

 

First of, the state of Macragge is described thusly in the Index Astartes article:

 

"This punishing regime [of mandatory military traing for all children from 6 to 14 years, sometimes lethal] ensured that the military might of Macragge was second to none, and many of the surrounding systems adopted the same method of training. While the rest of the galaxy threatened to plunge back into the anarchy of the Age of Strife, Macragge and her neighbours prospered, disciplined armies of highly trained warriors hurling back alien invaders, pirates and human renegades time and time again. (...) However, despite the overwhelming military successes off-planet, areas of Macragge remained untamed and wild, with bandits and brigands raiding from the barbarous lands of Illyrium in the north."

 

Guilliman was not involved in beating back an invasion, but that was the state of the society he was raised in. They were prepared for war, and not a calm paradise of decades of peace.

 

Second, Guilliman was said to have mastered everything the training facilities were able to teach him at around the age of ten, and was given command to pacify the mountain regions not long after that. (Primarchs were often described as maturing at a faster rate than humans.) So he did not have to wait long to put his training to the test.

 

Every Primarch eventually had to fight for control over his homeworld in one way or another, but not every one of them was so specifically raised and trained for warfare as Guilliman was. A select few of the other Primarchs had a dedicated military upbringing, but almost none of them was trained as comprehensively as Guilliman.

[Gree]

Gree: This makes me wonder then, connecting to the Corax Coup thread, how you intend to show a Macraggian Angron any different than Guilliman? There is the obvious personality differences that will define them, I know, but your ideas for a Macraggian Angron are distinctly not that of a desk jockey. But where will Angron get any of that, if you feel Guilliman doesn't? There is nothing on Macragge relating to martial prowess that Guilliman didn't encounter, master and perfect upon, for Angron to one-up him on. If anything, this opinion of Guilliman makes it sound like your Angron will be less than him, by being equal in prowess but lacking in generalship, though obviously the latter would be vastly higher than Angron's canon.

 

This isn't necessarily something relevant to this thread though, so if you'd like to discuss this I could meet you there.

 

 

This is not exactly relevant to the topic hand. I would prefer to discuss this somewhere else if possible.

 

But yes, I do intend my Angron to be quite different from canon Guilliman. I can't for one, see my Angron getting two-shotted by some Chaos Sorcerer, or being almost killed by a single squad of of normal Astartes. Primarchs in my mind, should be considrably tougher than that. But then again, I don't exacly hold the highest opinion for canon Guilliman.

[Legatus]

"Canon Guilliman" is great. "Officially published fan fiction Guilliman" from the Horus Heresy series perhaps less so.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

 

On the other side of that coin, Guilliman was raised in an orderly society, where he trained in combat in relatively stable and safe conditions. Guilliman was never really tested until Conor was killed as Guilliman was pacifying tribes of nomads.

 

 

First of, the state of Macragge is described thusly in the Index Astartes article:

 

"This punishing regime [of mandatory military traing for all children from 6 to 14 years, sometimes lethal] ensured that the military might of Macragge was second to none, and many of the surrounding systems adopted the same method of training. While the rest of the galaxy threatened to plunge back into the anarchy of the Age of Strife, Macragge and her neighbours prospered, disciplined armies of highly trained warriors hurling back alien invaders, pirates and human renegades time and time again. (...) However, despite the overwhelming military successes off-planet, areas of Macragge remained untamed and wild, with bandits and brigands raiding from the barbarous lands of Illyrium in the north."

 

Guilliman was not involved in beating back an invasion, but that was the state of the society he was raised in. They were prepared for war, and not a calm paradise of decades of peace.

 

Second, Guilliman was said to have mastered everything the training facilities were able to teach him at around the age of ten, and was given command to pacify the mountain regions not long after that. (Primarchs were often described as maturing at a faster rate than humans.) So he did not have to wait long to put his training to the test.

 

Every Primarch eventually had to fight for control over his homeworld in one way or another, but not every one of them was so specifically raised and trained for warfare as Guilliman was. A select few of the other Primarchs had a dedicated military upbringing, but almost none of them was trained as comprehensively as Guilliman.

 

 

It's great that the society he was in was very martial, and kicked all kinds of butt, but if he learned the skills but never really implemented them then I believe my initial point stands. 

He fought against humans using human rules in one region of an already pacified planet. 

I am not doubting his training, or his mindset. I like Guilliman. 

 

But he was raised in a relatively stable (look at the galaxy at large) society where he is not described as fighting any of the pirates, renegades or xenos himself.

All of his training was theoretical.

It's only against the mountain regions (one region of an entire planet) that it becomes practical.

 

I'm not knocking him, i just think your assessment of Lorgrar and Guilliman was unfair and wanted to point out there are other ways to view the provided information.

 

WLK 

[Castiel]

It is also worth pointing out that all of the Primarchs (excepting Curze) quickly learned from and outstripped their tutors, so this doesn't necessarily mark him out as any better than any of the other primarchs. Guilliman is no slouch in combat, but I think he still only ranks in the upper end of the mid tier at best in combat, because as previously stated, he probably didn't have the same amount of personal combat experience under his belt that some of the other primarchs did. He was second to none in the command of large forces and orchestrating large scale combat operations, but this would have come at a bit of cost to his own personal skill in close combat as he would have been on the front lines less than some of his brothers.

[Conn Eremon]

Not to knock the rest of that post, but saying he only had that one region of an entire planet to realize his skills is kind of like saying he only had Eurasia.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

Not to knock the rest of that post, but saying he only had that one region of an entire planet to realize his skills is kind of like saying he only had Eurasia.

 

I do apologize if thats how the tone came across, multi-tasking is a pain. 

 

Guilliman was a BAMF, no doubt about it. 

 

WLK

[blackoption]

 

Gree: This makes me wonder then, connecting to the Corax Coup thread, how you intend to show a Macraggian Angron any different than Guilliman? There is the obvious personality differences that will define them, I know, but your ideas for a Macraggian Angron are distinctly not that of a desk jockey. But where will Angron get any of that, if you feel Guilliman doesn't? There is nothing on Macragge relating to martial prowess that Guilliman didn't encounter, master and perfect upon, for Angron to one-up him on. If anything, this opinion of Guilliman makes it sound like your Angron will be less than him, by being equal in prowess but lacking in generalship, though obviously the latter would be vastly higher than Angron's canon.

 

This isn't necessarily something relevant to this thread though, so if you'd like to discuss this I could meet you there.

 

 

This is not exactly relevant to the topic hand. I would prefer to discuss this somewhere else if possible.

 

But yes, I do intend my Angron to be quite different from canon Guilliman. I can't for one, see my Angron getting two-shotted by some Chaos Sorcerer, or being almost killed by a single squad of of normal Astartes. Primarchs in my mind, should be considrably tougher than that. But then again, I don't exacly hold the highest opinion for canon Guilliman.

 

 

 

I'll take this to mean you will hate Guilliman no matter circumstance.

[Legatus]

It's great that the society he was in was very martial, and kicked all kinds of butt, but if he learned the skills but never really implemented them then I believe my initial point stands. 

He fought against humans using human rules in one region of an already pacified planet. 

I am not doubting his training, or his mindset. I like Guilliman.

 

 

But how many Primarchs fought against non-humans before joining the great Crusade? How many fought during childhood?

 

Most Primarchs started fighting against some human opposition on their homeworld at some point in their adult life. A select few had to fight for survival (mostly against the wild) as children. Only few were raised and trained from childhood on as warriors and/or leaders. A lot of them grew up without much training or struggle until they were already adults. Guilliman did not have to fight for survival on the streets of Nostramo or the forests of Caliban, but Curze and Jonson did not learn sophisticated combat techniques until much later in their lives. At the age where Ferrus Manus was first given command over an army and received training in modern military doctrine, Guilliman already had about a decade of training and command experience under his belt. Russ was one of the other few Primarchs who were raised to fight from an early age, and in a more melee focused society (pre-gunpowder), so he is rightly seen as one of the best fighters. (He, in turn, lacked the training in modern military doctrine.) But the same cannot be said for the majority of the Primarchs.

[Conn Eremon]

Uh, seems to me that Jonson and Guilliman began to be martially trained at the same time. The Lion was still a kid when discovered.

[Adra'Melek]

Jonson was adult 'human' size when found wasn't he? So half grown. Do we have any idea how old he or any of the other Primarchs were at that size? For some reason I have the idea of 7 or 8 in my head.

[Legatus]

2nd Edition Codex Angels of Death (p. 11) and 6th Edition Codex Dark Angels (p. 7) state that Jonson survived for a decade in the wild before he was found by the Order. He was then assimilated into civilised society, but I guess that would not have taken too long. So not a massive gap between Jonson and Guilliman , a mere 4-5 years (though at that age, Guilliman was already done with anything the training academies and academics on Macragge could teach him, and would soon be given his first command).