Who were Guilliman's "four or five"?

[Conn Eremon]

Jonson was adult 'human' size when found wasn't he? So half grown. Do we have any idea how old he or any of the other Primarchs were at that size? For some reason I have the idea of 7 or 8 in my head.

He was described as a child the size of an adult. Corax was likewise described as looking like a young(er) child, but of larger size than would be normal.

 

Just like they were larger than normal in their adulthood, standing nearly twice the size of the average unaugmented human.

 

However, while Corax likely spent quite a bit before being martially trained, Jonson was inducted right then into one of that world's martial institutions, the one that under his leadership grew to dominate all others, and eradicate that world's greatest threat.

[Gree]

 

 

Gree: This makes me wonder then, connecting to the Corax Coup thread, how you intend to show a Macraggian Angron any different than Guilliman? There is the obvious personality differences that will define them, I know, but your ideas for a Macraggian Angron are distinctly not that of a desk jockey. But where will Angron get any of that, if you feel Guilliman doesn't? There is nothing on Macragge relating to martial prowess that Guilliman didn't encounter, master and perfect upon, for Angron to one-up him on. If anything, this opinion of Guilliman makes it sound like your Angron will be less than him, by being equal in prowess but lacking in generalship, though obviously the latter would be vastly higher than Angron's canon.

 

This isn't necessarily something relevant to this thread though, so if you'd like to discuss this I could meet you there.

 

 

This is not exactly relevant to the topic hand. I would prefer to discuss this somewhere else if possible.

 

But yes, I do intend my Angron to be quite different from canon Guilliman. I can't for one, see my Angron getting two-shotted by some Chaos Sorcerer, or being almost killed by a single squad of of normal Astartes. Primarchs in my mind, should be considrably tougher than that. But then again, I don't exacly hold the highest opinion for canon Guilliman.

 

 

 

I'll take this to mean you will hate Guilliman no matter circumstance.

 

 

No, it means that I am unimpressed by his performance when compare to his brother's combat prowess. Maybe if he had more feats, I might have more respect for me, but as it stands when you have stuff like almost getting killed by a a single squad of Astartes, it kinda pales against some of the stuff that Corax or Sanguinius do even when heavily wounded.

 

I don't hate Guilliman exactly, I just really don't hold him in high regard. I really don't think he's a good warrior when compared to guys like Sanguinius or Russ.The evidence I have seen has not persuaded me otherwise. I used to have a higher opinion of Guilliman, but recent fluff has dispelled the notion I previously held.

[Candleshoes]

Jonson was adult 'human' size when found wasn't he? So half grown. Do we have any idea how old he or any of the other Primarchs were at that size? For some reason I have the idea of 7 or 8 in my head.

 

http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p113/Darkbeastman/Untitleds_zpscbf2927a.png

[Marshal Rohr]

Guilliman outgrew his man sized armor at 13

[drooling blood]

The Iron Hands Chapter and the Iron Hands Legion are very different things - there's been 10,000 years for the chapter to completely diverge from their origins as a Legion

 

Which is where they screwed up with the Blood Angels. A codex chapter that now sends its scouts to the assault companys first, So really there should be 60 assault troops, 20 tacs and 20 devs. The tacs, devs are on such a tight leash, you really dont want to go hth with them, is the direction they should have gone.

 

 

 

First of, the state of Macragge is described thusly in the Index Astartes article:

 

"This punishing regime [of mandatory military traing for all children from 6 to 14 years, sometimes lethal] ensured that the military might of Macragge was second to none, and many of the surrounding systems adopted the same method of training. While the rest of the galaxy threatened to plunge back into the anarchy of the Age of Strife, Macragge and her neighbours prospered, disciplined armies of highly trained warriors hurling back alien invaders, pirates and human renegades time and time again. (...) However, despite the overwhelming military successes off-planet, areas of Macragge remained untamed and wild, with bandits and brigands raiding from the barbarous lands of Illyrium in the north."

 

 

So everyone else is of hurling back alien invaders and Guillimans off chasing rabble around the mountains.

Some synergy with his efforts during the heresy.

 

Guilliman as a fighter is lower mid tier at best. Goes to upper mid tier, IF he gets to fight them again. Which really should happen if your hacking away with axes and stuff. Hes the best secretary though. Takes notes and files them in the proper order.

[Marshal Rohr]

 

 

The Iron Hands Chapter and the Iron Hands Legion are very different things - there's been 10,000 years for the chapter to completely diverge from their origins as a Legion

Which is where they screwed up with the Blood Angels. A codex chapter that now sends its scouts to the assault companys first, So really there should be 60 assault troops, 20 tacs and 20 devs. The tacs, devs are on such a tight leash, you really dont want to go hth with them, is the direction they should have gone.

 

 

First of, the state of Macragge is described thusly in the Index Astartes article:

 

 

"This punishing regime [of mandatory military traing for all children from 6 to 14 years, sometimes lethal] ensured that the military might of Macragge was second to none, and many of the surrounding systems adopted the same method of training. While the rest of the galaxy threatened to plunge back into the anarchy of the Age of Strife, Macragge and her neighbours prospered, disciplined armies of highly trained warriors hurling back alien invaders, pirates and human renegades time and time again. (...) However, despite the overwhelming military successes off-planet, areas of Macragge remained untamed and wild, with bandits and brigands raiding from the barbarous lands of Illyrium in the north."

So everyone else is of hurling back alien invaders and Guillimans off chasing rabble around the mountains.

Some synergy with his efforts during the heresy.

 

Guilliman as a fighter is lower mid tier at best. Goes to upper mid tier, IF he gets to fight them again. Which really should happen if your hacking away with axes and stuff. Hes the best secretary though. Takes notes and files them in the proper order.

That's a personal assessment.

[Conn Eremon]

Eh? Everyone else is off hurling back alien invaders? Everyone is it?

 

Lion - Kills all the monster-beasts on one world

 

Fulgrim - Rejuvenates one world, seemingly peacefully

 

Perturabo - Outmatches one world's mortal human warlords

 

Khan - Outmatches one world's mortal human warlords

 

Russ - Outmatches one world's mortal human warlords

 

Dorn - Comes into command of and rejuvenates a small interstellar empire

 

Curze - Outmatches one world's mortal human murder-lords

 

Sanguinius - Unites pure blood humanity and kills many mutants, one world

 

Ferrus Manus - Kills a dragon

 

Angron - Fails to outmatch one world's mortal human warlords

 

Mortarion - Fails to outmatch one world's immortal necromancer warlords

 

Magnus - Peacefully unites one world by being super-psychic, helps defend against monster-beasts

 

Horus - Who the :cuss knows

 

Lorgar - Outmatches one world's mortal human priest-lords

 

Vulkan - Hey, look, we finally got to one who did handle invasive xenos! Take away the 'every' and I might have agreed.

 

Corax - Outmatches one world's mortal human jailer-lords

 

Alpharius Omegon - Who the :cuss knows

 

 

 

So, tell me how:

 

Guilliman - Outmatches one world's mortal human barbarian- & traitor-lords, reforges a then-dead interstellar empire that outmatches Dorn's, filled with worlds that could only compare to efforts of the likes of Fulgrim, Magnus and Vulkan, on their single worlds

 

 

Is somehow inferior.

[Legatus]

Cormac, I think with "everyone else of off fighting alien invaders" he refered to everyone else on Macragge.

 

But those alien attacks were from the history of a pre-Guilliman Macragge, a description of the world he landed on. The history of his youth mentions no off world threats, so we have to assume that there were none at the time, and the marauding brigands of the mountain regions were the main concern while he grew up.

[Conn Eremon]

Cormac, I think with "everyone else of off fighting alien invaders" he refered to everyone else on Macragge.

 

Yeah, well . . . damn, okay.

[Gree]

I don't really think that events on a homeworld or childhood upbringing is that relevant. One can have simply greater inborn talent than someone else regardless of training. It's happened enough times in real life right? People can be savants at a particular aspect of life.

Like Fulgrim who spent his upbringing as a worker, is appearantly one of the best swordsmen amoung the Primarchs, or Angron the slave who became a terrifying close combat beast in the Great Crusade, or Konrad Curze who was trained by nobody, but was a total bad in Unremembered Empire. Tribal wastelander Sanguinius punches out Daemon Princes.

Or others might be born stronger, tougher or faster than their peers. We know that the Emperor appearantly desighed his Primarchs to fulfill a certain role or aspect, so it makes sense that Guilliman was engineered for more of a command or administrative role than perhaps someone like Russ or Angron.

[Conn Eremon]

None of the Primarchs were designed for anything other than leading superhuman armies from the front. Designed differently, seems likely. But that still stands true.

 

And the examples you use disprove your point. Those Primarchs all had upbringings that led to their famed capabilities.

 

Edit: To clarify on Fulgrim, since he's the least obvious example of :cuss I mentioned above:

 

He had Corax's upbringing. Found by the downtrodden and raised to be their saviour. Only, not through guerilla warfare, but by rising through the ranks and using his eventual authority to remake his world to be better.

 

But there we can see how his drive for perfection likely originated. He was given the name of a god, and all who he was first surrounded by those who pinned all of their hopes and dreams on him. And his response to this was to be perfect. To perfect his world's conditions.

 

And then the Emperor came, with his Children. And more was pinned upon him. Take this Legion of my Children, and conquer the galaxy for me. And, as it was on Chemos, he threw himself into the task, to perfect it, and to be perfect in it.

 

So of course he would have been known as among best at something, and given the typically anachronistic nature of the Legions, swordsmanship was among the likeliest.

[Gree]

None of the Primarchs were designed for anything other than leading superhuman armies from the front. Designed differently, seems likely. But that still stands true.

Magnus was appearantly intended to power the Golden Throne. Russ was the ''executioner''. A bunch of characters speculate on how the Emperor designed the Primarchs to embody different aspects of his psyche. So far it's just speculation by characters in the novels, but it seems something the authors are interested in developing.

 

I don't doubt Guilliman was made to lead armies. I just don't think he was nessecarily designed to be an awesome swordsman or uber-warrior, like Russ or Angron are hinted to be. It's not a knock against Guilliman. He already has his niche. He's the logistics and strategic guy.

 

And the examples you use disprove your point. Those Primarchs all had upbringings that led to their famed capabilities.

None of them disprove my point though. How does being raised as a factory worker make one into a sublime swordsman or a skilled general? How does being raised by nobody seemingly make someone more skilled at close quarters than somebody trained in military academies? Or somebody raised as a tribesman or slave?

 

Essentially, most of my examples where Primarchs raised in humble or opressed backgrounds pulling off more impressive feats of arms than we see Space Sparta Guiliman do in similar conditions. One might credit that to different authors's interpretations of the Primarchs, but at least for me I don't think Guilliman has come off as well as his peers in that regard.

[Conn Eremon]

I edited my post, Gree.

[Gree]

I edited my post, Gree.

I saw it. I don't really think that disproves my point either. Fulgrim had no combat training on Chemos, wheras Guilliman was Mr. Space Sparta.

 

Now, maybe one might make a case for the training and upbringing they got after being reunited with the Emperor and the Imperium, but as I said, that would prove my point about the training they got on the original homeworld. It was't like Guilliman being taught to handle a sword at childhood means he's automatically going to be a better fighter than say, Sanguinius or Fulgrim.

[Conn Eremon]

I'll try to clarify and refer to the other examples you made now that I'm on my laptop and off the phone. I'm not necessarily disagreeing with everything you're saying, I just think your view is a bit too far down one extreme, while the truth lies closer to the middle.

 

You're not wrong that a case can be made about the training and upbringing following their reunion with the Emperor. Fulgrim, for instance, seemed to have adopted his warrior talents entirely from that time. Possibly Magnus and Lorgar as well, though to a lesser extent than their Chemosian bro. But in each of these Primarchs you mentioned, it was their upbringing on their homeworld that informed their capabilities and talents later on in life.

 

Starting again with Fulgrim, if you take Chemos out of the equation, you very possibly might also remove the drive for perfection (or you might not). If it does, then the Primarch Fulgrim of the Emperor's Children might have become very different. His talents as a swordsman seem derived from his drive for perfection, which seem derived from his Chemosian upbringing. While his training and mastery of it was after his upbringing on Chemos, you can say that his home world was the cause of it nonetheless.

 

Now, I first clarified Fulgrim, because I would say that there is the case that he was least informed by his home world of the primarchs you listed. Konrad Curze, Angron and Sanguinius are, to varying degrees, more so.

 

Konrad Curze and Angron are shaped dominantly more by their home world than anything that happened afterwards. You mention how could Angron be a greater CQC beast than Guilliman, when he was raised as a slave. It was his upbringing as a slave that directly led to that, and nothing else. That defines Angron, and it came to define him because this was exactly what his slavers had made him to be. It's entirely possible that he still could have been something of a fighter, maybe even retained his status as a chart topper among the fans that make such lists, but canon Angron is like that because of Nuceria. Not the Emperor, not his own innate capabilities, not his time in the Great Crusade, but Nuceria. For the remainder of the Great Crusade, it remained Nuceria that defined him.

 

Konrad Curze is really not so different than Angron in this, albeit his was a very different breed of world. But like Angron, Curze became what he was because of Nostramo. Certain bits seem to be innate, such as his need to enact his sense of justice. However, it was Nostramo that perverted that sense, by providing him with a world full of the world's worst role models to emulate. And though his actions on Nostramo were that of a crusade against corruption, it was by emulation of that corruption that he fulfilled this drive. Heck, AD-B even connected Angron and Curze more strongly (I'm not saying this was intentional, and this is kind of stretching), because now Angron also experienced the cathartic release of destroying his home world for its continued corruption, even though by that point both had come to embody these world's separate corruptions. Angron was now the slaver, and Curze the monster. They both fought against their world, but in the end those worlds defined them and recreated them in their image.

 

Sanguinius' upbringing also kind of informed his later life. Baal was a world where the humans were weakened by their environment, had spare resources, and were hunted by beings who had mutated to have none of these disadvantages. He, himself, was greater than these threats, but not those he led and protected. And despite these obstacles, he led these people to dominate this world once more. He's the "never tell me the odds" Primarch. Come the Great Crusade, and you have the same circumstances once again. He is charged with a Legion of his own sons, who are flawed, and this flaw is unraveling them in the face of an enemy that suffered no such disadvantage. Would he have similarly overcome the situation without Baal? Quite possibly. I would actually think likely. But the connection is still there.

 

So, I don't disagree with you on the nature of innate capabilities, and potential for savants. In fact, I would think Horus is the best example of a potential Primarch savant, as his charisma seems entirely innate, and it's his charisma that informs a lot about him. But I do disagree that the Primarchs home worlds or childhood upbringing are irrelevant. They are relevant, and the Primarchs you listed as examples of its irrelevance seem to me to be examples of just how relevant they are. I honestly can't think of a Primarch where such is more relevant than those of Angron and Curze, where it's of total relevance, even if these two were savants in their respective talents. Even Horus, who I just mentioned as a Primarch savant, is informed most by his upbringing by the Emperor.

 

And while certain "roles" may have been design features, how these roles are expressed seem to be as much defined by their upbringing as their original intent. If Russ was meant to be the 'executioner' (and please, please, people, don't let this degenerate into an argument about whether or not he was. Just saying 'if,' for the sake of the argument), then it's still his Fenrisian upbringing that most defined how he approaches that role. It's also possible that he wasn't intended to be in that role, but it was his Fenrisian upbringing that caused him to take it on, as Forge World showed us an example that could imply that it was the XII that was first intended for that role. Which, if true, connects back to how Angron was most shaped by Nuceria alone, as it was what Nuceria made him, and what he in turn made his Legion in Nuceria's image, that would have disqualified him from that intended role. Even though, personally, I think Forge World's example simply showed the XII as the only available tool for the job, not that the intended tool for that job.

 

The other role you mention is Magnus' future on the Golden Throne. This I would least dispute as an intended role, as it seems like this was to be the likeliest future for him. But again, it was Prospero that defined him more. While his strength as a psyker probably came to how he was designed to eventually take on that role, Prospero's influence, and his open willingness to be influenced by Prospero, is what disqualified him from taking it on, by leading him down the path to damnation. While there were outside influences, such as the direct manipulations of Tzeentch (funny how Tzeentch was the only god to overtly and directly affect his converts-to-be), it was still Prospero that lent Magnus that attitude that so placed their interactions in Tzeentch's favor.

[Legatus]

Ok, realistically, the Primarchs fighting capabilities do not come from their upbringing, but from what archetypal role Games Workshop designed them for. Leman Russ is a great fighter because he is the Viking chief. Angron is a great fighter because he is the champion of the warrior god. Horus is a great fighter because he was the leader of the Primarchs and great at everything. Curze is deadly because he is a vigilante murderer. Lorgar is not such a great fighter because he is a priest/cult leader. Magnus is not such a great fighter because he is a sorcerer. The back story of the Primarchs is then meant to explain how they became those archetypal characters.

 

Most of the time that works out as planned. Though for Fulgrim, and perhaps for Sanguinius as well, their upbringing and cultural background does not really explain their fighting skill. Sanguinius is a great fighter because he is an Angel. But him growing up on Baal did not make him that. Fulgrim is a great fighter because he is the perfectionist. But his back story perhaps does not do a good job of explaining how he became that man.

 

So who is Guilliman, and how would he thus be expected to fight? He is a Roman/Spartan General. He is leading vast armies and conducting grand campaigns, while having an eye for the political and socioeconomical situation of his realm. He may not have the fighting spirit of the viking chief or the champion of the warrior god, but he has been trained formally and rigorously in various weapons and fighting techniques.

[Huggtand]

The big problem is that our picture of the Primarchs are based of the different authors that portrays them and they have very different views of them themselves. This leads to that people gets different impressions based on what source material they choses to read or recognize.

For example with Guillimans fighting skill; in Unremembered Guilliman have a hard time with a squad of ordinary marines. He is unarmed and unarmored and as Abnet is more realistic than others he points out that a bolter shell in the head is death even for a Primarch. If we go to another source like Betrayer Guilliman is a real beast in CQC and holds his own against both Lorgar and Angron at the same time.

What we must remember is that how good each Primarch is are wholly dependent on what the author want it to be in their story, and to argue who is best, like what this thread is moving towards, is indeed going down the route that "my daddy can beat your daddy".

And thats pointless as I know my daddy can beat all of yours

[Gree]

I'll try to clarify and refer to the other examples you made now that I'm on my laptop and off the phone. I'm not necessarily disagreeing with everything you're saying, I just think your view is a bit too far down one extreme, while the truth lies closer to the middle.

I don't believe I have ever made the claim to objective truth in this discussion. Everything I have said so far is merely my personal opinion and interpretation of the setting. I'm not trying to convince anyone or force my opinion as the sole guiding truth. If people wish to go with a different interpretation then that's fine, but I just don't think they're right in that instance.

 

I just don't believe Guiliman was inherently capable as his brothers. Whatever his early training on Macragge, was was simply not as skilled or talented, or he was simply not as strong or tough as his brothers. I've seen this many times in the recent canon being produced by the Horus Heresy series. He's just not a good as fighter as heavyweights like Sanguinius or Angron. He seems someone better suited to a pen than a sword, given his greatest accomplishment was no martial feat, but rather the writing of a book.

 

*snip*

The upbringing of the Primarchs was not completely irrelevant, but it wasn't terribly important. Certain cultural choices may have inclined Primarchs to pursue certain martial aspects, but it was nothing set in stone, and the combat training they received afterwords in modern Imperial weapons and tactics probably contributed far more to their personal combat ability than whatever training they got on their homeworlds.

 

Maybe Fulgrim might have been different if he wasn't raised by Chemos, but the fact remain at the end of the day that he didn't get any combat training Chemos and he was raised with no martial roots. The training he received later played a far bigger role in his combat ability.

 

That's why Guilliman being raised in a martial culture like Macragge means rather little in the overall assessment of determining martial ability. Guilliman being taught swordsmanship or how to fight isn't automatically going to mean he's going to be a better warrior than slave Corax or Angron, or gutter trash Curze. (In fact recent evidence has presented the idea that Guilliman is actually inferior to many of his peers in that arena). All the Primarchs would eventually get the same training chances.

 

After all, Guilliman was raised as a prince and probably received the best training available. Angron was raised a gladiator slave, and probably taught inferior training compared to Guilliman. (Though his mental handicap probably also contributed). Guilliman probably learned more unarmed combat techniques than the untrained Curze. Guilliman probably had better instructors in swordsmanship than the tribal Sanguinius.

 

Now, while some homeworlds obviously shaped their Primarchs to a degree(Angron and Magnus probably being the most pertinent,) I do think the Emperor designed each Primarch for a certain role. It's something you see echoed in the Pre-Primarch Legions, how they had the same basic traits that their Primarchs had.

 

I.e, the War Hounds had an strong aggressive streak to them. The Pre-Dorn Fists apparently excelled at sieges. The Pre-Alpharius Alpha Legion were already being used as wetwork agents by the Emperor. The 14th and 18th gene-lines apparently boasted high physical toughness inherent to them. The Thousand Sons seemed to be heavily implied to be made by the Emperor to be his psykers. The 17th have unquestioning dogma on a genetic level, etc, etc.

 

Now, the homeworlds might have reinforced those traits, but it wasn't like they were the sole arbiter or cause of those traits. Magnus was always going to be a psyker. Mortarion and Vulkan were always going to be physically though. Angron was always going to have some level to aggression in him.

[Wade Garrett]

If we're going to use Unremembered Empire as a knock on Rob, it behooves me to point out that Index Astartes: Space Wolves has Leman Russ brought low by a gaggle of mortals with bows and arrows.

[The_son_of_Dorn]

Didnt you know wade, everyone who uses the internet is an expert on everything 101% of the time.

 

And so what if rob was bought up with a silver spoon in his mouth, its the ones who have had professional training by professional soldiers in professional armies that worry me the most, not techo gladiators or religious zealots.

[Conn Eremon]

I wouldn't even really say that Unremembered Empire depicts any differently than Betrayer. I mean, yes you got the Titan press and Lorgar playing his Reflect trap card, but in Unremembered Empire you have the narration state that a bolt shell to an unprotected head will kill a Primarch. In Betrayer, you see a bolt shell utterly destroy Lorgar's hand. As fwoosh, boom, Lorgar's arm ends at a ruined stump at the wrist. In that instance, both showed a similar level of vulnerability.

 

It makes it sound to me that no matter how great the feats they accomplish, they are not immortal or impervious. What threatened Guilliman at that time would have threatened every last one of them, and any one of them could have died in that encounter. It did not, in any way, belittle Guilliman in comparison with the others. This is, after all, the same guy who took a full-powered Illuminarium to the skull hard enough to crack his skull and send sheets of blood pouring down his face, and yet is described as having no difficulty in smiling as the fight continued, or being able to hold his own against both an empowered Lorgar and the most rabid version of Angron yet seen at the same time.

 

Might as well call Ferrus Manus the weakest Primarch, for being unable to handle one.

[The_son_of_Dorn]

Ferrus may of got angry and literally 'lost his head' in combat, but even that example is subject to critisism as fulgrim was on the back foot till he called upon his slaneshi light saber.

[Gree]

If we're going to use Unremembered Empire as a knock on Rob, it behooves me to point out that Index Astartes: Space Wolves has Leman Russ brought low by a gaggle of mortals with bows and arrows.

Indeed. And the Lion was taken down by a band of primitive knights and Curze survived the molten core of a planet while a baby.

 

I'm fine with ignoring the old Index Astartes articles as in-universe misinformation and rumor. That's what the latest fluff seems to do, with much of the old information getting steadily retconned away. So I ''go with the flow''. As of the latest fluff it doesn't seem like Guilliman is portrayed as being a very good fighter.

 

Of course that's my approach to it. If someone wants to take the Index Astartes as canon, then more power to them. I personally see them as outdated fluff.

 

It makes it sound to me that no matter how great the feats they accomplish, they are not immortal or impervious. What threatened Guilliman at that time would have threatened every last one of them, and any one of them could have died in that encounter.

I'm not sure if this is directed to me but...

 

Fulgrim took a power fist to the face and shrugged it off like it was nothing. Angron survived an entire fortress falling on him. An exhausted and wounded Corax tanked bolter fire like it was a light rain. Fulgrim and Ferrus Mannus rained ''mountain-destroying blows'' on each other. In another scene Fulgrim was explicitly described as having skin harder than Terminator Armor.

 

That is just off the top of my head. I'm sure I can find many more examples of similar durability feats if I do a closer reading of the books. For every low-end feat I can pull out a high-end durability feat of Primarchs tanking far worse than bolter shells, even on their unarmoured skin. If you are asking what I form my opinion on, then I merely compare Guilliman to the many other Primarch fight scenes we are fortunately blessed with. I can't speak for anyone else, but I myself find Guilliman coming up short many times. Maybe it's because his bad showings tend to outnumber his good ones. He had that moment against Lorgar and Angron, but that is overshadowed by getting beaten up by a Dark Apostle and a single squad of marines.

[Huggtand]

I can't speak for anyone else, but I myself find Guilliman coming up short many times. Maybe it's because his bad showings tend to outnumber his good ones. He had that moment against Lorgar and Guilliman, but that is overshadowed by getting beaten up by a Dark Apostle and a single squad of marines.

But you ignore that this is fiction and how good Guilliman is up to the author. So if some authors decide to describe Guilliman as an real badass in the next ten books, beating the crap out of Angron and what not and surviving an battleship ramming him, by your logic you will then rank him as the best Primarch there is?

[Gree]

I can't speak for anyone else, but I myself find Guilliman coming up short many times. Maybe it's because his bad showings tend to outnumber his good ones. He had that moment against Lorgar and Guilliman, but that is overshadowed by getting beaten up by a Dark Apostle and a single squad of marines.

But you ignore that this is fiction and how good Guilliman is up to the author. So if some authors decide to describe Guilliman as an real badass in the next ten books, beating the crap out of Angron and what not and surviving an battleship ramming him, by your logic you will then rank him as the best Primarch there is?

I can't speak for anyone else, but I myself find Guilliman coming up short many times. Maybe it's because his bad showings tend to outnumber his good ones. He had that moment against Lorgar and Guilliman, but that is overshadowed by getting beaten up by a Dark Apostle and a single squad of marines.

But you ignore that this is fiction and how good Guilliman is up to the author. So if some authors decide to describe Guilliman as an real badass in the next ten books, beating the crap out of Angron and what not and surviving an battleship ramming him, by your logic you will then rank him as the best Primarch there is?

Then I may reconsider. However I don't spend money on Black Library novels anymore, so I probably won't read it unless somebody informs me. As for now, I base my current opinion on Guilliman on what we have, and I don't find it very flattering.