Rewards of Treason & Dedicated Transport (FW response 15DEC)

[Krikey]

So ... I'm looking at Alpha Legion and Rewards of Treason. Specifically, stealing a unit of RG Mor Deythan. The Mor Deythan can take a Darkwing Storm Eagle as dedicated transport. My question is ... is a dedicated transport considered a part of its parent unit's wargear and thus susceptible to being stolen along with the squad of Mor Deythan?

 

I have an extra storm eagle lying about, and thought I might mod the engines with some flashy equipment (quantum field repellers, etc.) to represent the stealth and outflank special rules.

 

Admittedly, I don't even play, but I'm still a bit obsessive about building my armies within the rules. I don't want to modify the storm eagle unless I would be able to use it with my baddies and don't want to encourage anything that might be viewed as particularly stinky cheese.

 

If I can't do this, then I'll likely paint up a squad of IF Templars and field them with an Alpha Legion Librarian -- also in Templars colors. And then I would have to post a pic in the BT forum, which would result in my being declared Traitoris Excommunicatus and then a bunch of BT zealots would be gnashing their teeth and threatening me with burning ... actually, that sounds a bit fun ...

 

But I still want to know what people think about RoT and dedicated transports.

 

~K

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

Personally, I would say they wouldnt because the Darkwing itself is a unique unit. By selecting it, they would be taking 2 unique units rather than the one allowed by RoT

 

WLK

[Marshal Loss]

I'd allow it if I were playing against an AL player, makes sense to me as it is legitimately a dedicated transport for the unit in question

 

Email Forge World

[Krikey]

Right. So I sent the following email to Forge World:

 

 

I have two questions about the Rewards of Treason special rule specially and one about the Coils of the Hydra rite of war in general.

 

 

The first instance involves Alpha Legion taking a unit of Mor Deythan from the Raven Guard army list. Is dedicated transport taken with the traitor unit? In the case of Mor Deythan, they have available the Darkwing Storm eagle as dedicated transport -- may this transport be taken along with the Mor Deythan?

 

Pro: the Rewards of Treason disallows taking any infantry without either dedicated transport or the ability to infiltrate or deep strike. This would imply that any available dedicated transport not only can but must be taken with the unit.

 

Con: there is another dedicated transport available to the unit (the legion rhino). The Darkwing is a legion-specific unit, and taking it in addition to a squad of Mor Deythan would give the Alpha Legion detachment two Raven Guard-specific units instead of the single unit allowed by the rule and as such should not be allowed.

 

(As far as I know, the Mor Deythan is currently the only legion-specific unit which takes another legion-specific unit as dedicated transport, but there could be others in future lists. If one of the forthcoming units has only a legion-specific dedicated transport, then this could be more of an issue.)

 

 

The second instance involves Alpha Legion taking a unit of Templar Brethren from the Imperial Fist army list and involves a piece of legion-specific wargear -- the Solarite power gauntlet available to the chapter champion. The rule says that the unit has available any equipment they would normally have, but also says the unit has the Legion Astartes (Alpha Legion) special rule instead of the Legion Astartes (Imperial Fists) special rule.

 

Pro: the Solarite power gauntlet is a piece of wargear available to the Templar Brethren unit commander and as such is available to be taken.

 

Con: the Solarite power gauntlet is only available to characters with the Legion Astartes (Imperial Fists) special rule. This squad of Templar Brethren does not have the Legion Astartes (Imperial Fists) special rule, so the chapter champion may not take the Solarite power gauntlet.

 

This also applies to the following:

 

Salamanders -- artificer weapons

Night Lords -- Nostraman chainglaive

Death Guard -- power scythe

Emperor's Children -- Phoenix power spear

World Eaters -- chain axes, Caedere weapons

 

 

Finally, Coils of the Hydra disallows any infantry unit without either a dedicated transport or the ability to infiltrate or deep strike. Does this mean that an infantry unit without these cannot be deployed within a transport taken from a separate slot on the FoC? (e.g. a unit of 20 tactical marines deployed within a storm eagle or a Kharybdis assault claw).

 

 

Thanks in advance for any clarification you are able to give.

[Secrets & Lies]

I'd have thought they would, since its taken as a dedicated transport.

[Krikey]

I didn't get a response to my first query so I simplified it and sent it again, receiving a reply within minutes.

 

Rewards of Treason (Coils of the Hydra -- Alpha Legion Rite of War):

If an Alpha Legion detachment takes Mor Deythan from the Raven Guard army list, can the Darkwing Storm Eagle be taken as dedicated transport for the unit?

Thank you for your email. As it is an option for them that does not take up another Force Organisation Chart slot, yes it can be.

[Krikey]

I just realized that B&C has a separate rules forum for Horus Heresy -- I would have posted this there originally if I had known. Would a mod like to move this?

 

~K

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

I didn't get a response to my first query so I simplified it and sent it again, receiving a reply within minutes.

 

Rewards of Treason (Coils of the Hydra -- Alpha Legion Rite of War):

If an Alpha Legion detachment takes Mor Deythan from the Raven Guard army list, can the Darkwing Storm Eagle be taken as dedicated transport for the unit?

Thank you for your email. As it is an option for them that does not take up another Force Organisation Chart slot, yes it can be.

 

 

Wow, thats pretty horrible, but on par with the current handling of the Alpha Legion.

 

WLK

[Krikey]

 

Wow, thats pretty horrible, but on par with the current handling of the Alpha Legion.

 

WLK

Yeah, if I played I would probably feel not quite right about taking both -- especially if I was playing against RG. As it is, it's just an excuse to convert my storm eagle and set it on the shelf.

 

~K

[Marshal Loss]

I was right! Huzzah!

 

I think it's good this way, hats off to FW

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

may i request the email used for this ruling?

 

I want to try a little experiment.

 

WLK

[Krikey]

I'm not sure what you mean (it's all above), but I've attached the full text of both query and reply. I think my original email was more neutral, but it's likely sitting in their TL;DR queue.

 

~K

 

Begin forwarded message:

 

From: forgeworld <forgeworld@gwplc.com>

Date: December 15, 2014 at 2:52:22 PM CST

To: ZZZZZZZZ <ZZZZZZZZZ@gmail.com>

Subject: Re: Rules query

 

Hi ZZZZZZZ,

 

Thank you for oyur email. As it is an option for them that does not take up another Force Organisation Chart slot, yes it can be.

 

 

If there is anything further we can do to assist you, or if you have any queries about the information we have requested or provided, please telephone us.

 

 

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Forge World

 

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On 15 December 2014 at 20:10, ZZZZZZZZ <ZZZZZZZZZ@gmail.com> wrote:

Rewards of Treason (Coils of the Hydra -- Alpha Legion Rite of War):

If an Alpha Legion detachment takes Mor Deythan from the Raven Guard army list, can the Darkwing Storm Eagle be taken as dedicated transport for the unit?

 

Thanks for your time!

 

~ZZZZZZZZ

 

Information in this email and any attachments is confidential, subject to copyright and must not be

used or disclosed except for the purpose it has been sent, unless required by law.

 

Games Workshop Limited, registered in England and Wales, under company number 1467092, and

registered at Games Workshop, Willow Road, Lenton, Nottingham NG7 2WS.

 

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

in the past, people have received different replies when emailing FW/GW the same question. 
I was requesting the email address you used to try and see if this was still the case.

 

WLK

[Krikey]

Ahhhhh ... Sorry -- I read it after very little sleep. I'm curious as well. Post what you find, will you?

 

~K

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

email sent, awaiting reply.

 

WLK

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

the reply I got from Forge World.

"Hi,

        Thank you for your email.  The answer to your question is -
 

1. When Alpha Legion take the form of a unit, they do get to choose any of the upgrade for that unit, including any dedicated transports, including Legion specific ones like the Darkwing

 

If there is anything further we can do to assist you, or if you have any queries about the information we have requested or provided, please telephone us.


Regards,

Forge World"

 

I still find it crap, but FW approves (especially when the models are releases through them) such shenanigans.

 

WLK

[Hesh Kadesh]

Being fair to the fluff, Alpha Legion aren't exactly that incapable - if they're capable of infiltrating another legion, then picking up a model of kit that's not used by that legion is a bit daft. If an elite unit, such as Mor Deythan are capable of being infiltrated, but they turn up in a bog standard Storm Eagle, alarm bells are already going to be triggering in the RG's head. Take the british military - known for their near unique use of the SA80, even if you turn up in the right camo and gear, speak with the right accent, but are using an AK47, it will look invite suspicion. 

 

This is a legion which can cut the face off the dead enemies, surgically implant it onto their operatives, and then near seamlessly meld with a legion that has fought for years. While that's pretty ninja and I can see why for some it breaks their immersion, I think it fits right in with the setting. 

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

i think this sums up my point of view of the recent magic-unicorn-ninjas-pirate that the Alpha Legion have been turned in to, including this decision:

 

 

WLK

 

Edit: Add "pirate" 

[Hesh Kadesh]

After Hunt for Voldorius, Deliverance Lost and Seventh Serpent (McNeils latest offering/offal), I've got to say I prefer these capable non-moustache twiddling Alpha Legion as presented in Legion, Scars, and The Unremembered Empire (one of the few things that book got right, even if he messed up the Guilliman that was so excellent in KNF).

 

I'm not telling you how you are meant to feel about your interpretation/head canon about your hobby, but at least it makes sense that if the AL in their role as the Stasi/CIA dudes of the Legions are capable at doing their job. That they're flawed and egotistical about their ability to manipulate things makes them not the mary sues that the Emperor's Children, or the Space Wolves (sorry, this isn't pointed either, just a general observation), Salamanders or Raven Guard are presented as being in the novels.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

Thats a whole other topic that **Urk** The poster was killed mid-sentence by who he thought was his sister, but had actually been replaced by Alpha Legion agent. before she was born.
 

*AHEM*

 

All is well, I for one happily support the completely unbiased and very understated abilities of the so-called Alpha Legion, if you can prove any operation or mention of the Alpha Legion was actually the Alpha Legion.

 

EDIT: Wait, I just have to re-read your post to verify I read that right...did you say the RG and Salamanders have been portrayed as mary sues while trying to rationalize the actions of the Alpha Legion?

 

WLK

[Sevatar]

After Hunt for Voldorius, Deliverance Lost and Seventh Serpent (McNeils latest offering/offal), I've got to say I prefer these capable non-moustache twiddling Alpha Legion as presented in Legion, Scars, and The Unremembered Empire (one of the few things that book got right, even if he messed up the Guilliman that was so excellent in KNF).

 

I'm not telling you how you are meant to feel about your interpretation/head canon about your hobby, but at least it makes sense that if the AL in their role as the Stasi/CIA dudes of the Legions are capable at doing their job. That they're flawed and egotistical about their ability to manipulate things makes them not the mary sues that the Emperor's Children, or the Space Wolves (sorry, this isn't pointed either, just a general observation), Salamanders or Raven Guard are presented as being in the novels.

Raven Guard are Mary Sues? U wot mate?

 

The marines who are outwitted at every turn by thr Alpha Legion are op?

[Hesh Kadesh]

Have you read the Shattered Legions stuff? Iron Hands are the whipping boys, Salamanders are the stoic champions of humanity and are so righteous and virtuous and "oh my hero" because they have the whole "this is how the 3rd millenium judges people" vibe going on - so either die for plot reasons or otherwise they're always going to be in the winning situation, while Raven Guard are shadowninja awesome-o assassin shooter wuxia guys. Sharrokyn for example. It's this reason as to why the Shattered Legion stuff sucks. Shattered Legion is 40K in a 30K setting. It's inconsequential and irrelevant.

 

If you're talking about Deliverance Lost being "outwitted at every turn"; it's Gav Thorpe who wrote that whose superspecialsnowflake Alpha Legion only Marine Killing technique by feigning an attack before dropping to a knee with a knife at the groin?

 

"U wot mate?"

 

Anyway, getting off topic as said, lets take it to another thread if you want to continue.

[Rayray]

I don't agree with forge-world's ruling either. The alpha legion could have had uber infiltrating units or operate behind enemy lines instead of having the ability to not only steal a unique unit, but steal a second unique unit (which is hilarious because forge world's answer to the query is in direct conflict with the rules as written), just to get you to buy more resin. As I said, not only is the answer breaking their own rules, but it takes away from the uniqueness of both the alpha legion and the armies they pirate unique units from. Usually i'd let a lot slide in a game, but I wouldn't go along with that one. It boils down to RAI vs RAW no matter who says what.

[Krikey]

Krikey: "Oh, I see you brought your Raven Guard and have some Mor Deythan with a Darkwing. Cool. They all have infiltrate and fleet, right?"

 

Flacco: "Yeah. Well, the infantry do, anyway. What are you playing?"

 

Krikey: "Yeah, I brought Alpha Legion. Stole a Raven Guard unit ... Mor Deythan ... could give them all infiltrate, but looking at the number of dreads and tanks you've fielded, I guess it's tank hunters for my guys. Oh yeah ... the Darkwing Duck gets tank hunters too. Pretty nifty, huh?"

 

Flacco: "You parked behind the store in the alley, right?"

 

Krikey: "Yeah, why?"

 

Flacco: "Just checking."

 

 

I'm still going to do it, but my models are just going to sit on a shelf. I agree that the ability fits with the fluff, but it just seems a bit unfriendly to pull it in anything but the friendliest of games.

 

~K